Aid to Africa? (was Odd American Points of View)

[dandan]

My wife's (Slovak) family is having a reunion and a number of them are over from America (California) where they have lived for 20 years or so.
I was shocked to hear some of the following points of view and wonder if any Yanks could enlighten me as to whether they are American urban-myths, west-coast liberal thinking or just lack of thinking and knowledge of the world. The views are ANTI-AMERICAN. I spent last night defending the Yanks (I'n not one to let xenophobic, stupid or racist comments slide in my own home).
1. Not one Jew was killed in the 7/11 attack. They didn't turn up for work that day (see point 3)
2. Aeroplanes are so sophisticated these days that it is impossible to fly one into a building without the (US) government allowing it.
3. Bush was doing badly in the opinion polls and many people in the US think he (and presumably the good old Jerwish lobby - see point 1) came up with 7/11 to improve his ratings and allow him to attcak anyone he pleased.
4. The USA can change any world leader they please and use democracy as a tool as they can manipulate the masses.
5. America is rich because it keeps other countries poor
6. Americans have gained $10000 per person due to Exxon profits from high oil prices (because of Iraq)
7. The Iraqi elections were fixed and the government there is a puppet government
and
8. American plans to run the world from a bunker 35 stories down somewhere in Australia

I think I did a decent job of shooting down these points although it is hard to argue rationally abou such dumb ideas.
What did I say?
1. I have no idea about casualty figures but I strongly suspect that this must have been disinformation from a race-hate group.
2. The technology of locking the pilot's door wasn't used so I suspect technology wasn't that advanced. Planes are kind of designed to go where the pilot wants them to.
3. I'm not a huge Bush fan but even he wouldn't go that far. I guess this means Mr. Bin-Laden works for Bush now
4. Colonel Goddafi is the guy the USA wants in charge of Libya? US presidents don't look very adept at manipulating the masses to ensure victory for the leader of their choice in the USA let alone in the rest of the world (although winning an election by getting less votes than the other guy is a cute trick)
5. Capitalism works best with other rich people to do business with. Either with a customer or a supplier, you want your trade partner to be profitable and stable. The USA doesn't get money from Somalia, it gets it from rich countries like Germany, France, Japan, etc.
6. I pointed out that the world's largest consumer of oil doesn't have any self-interest in high oil prices (slight oversimplification)
7. Shiites 60% of population, Kurds 25%, Sunnis 15% roughly. Election results roughly 65/25/10 after low Sunni turnout. This doesn't look like a fix to me. I've seen elections where one party got 37% of the vote and got a large majority in parliament.
8. If you could rule the world, would you live in a bunker in Australia?

I'd appreciate any comments, sources of these opinions, counter-arguments and the like. I'll be seeing them again tonight and expect another rumble.
 

[racetraitor]

1) Sounds highly unlikely. Probably antisemitic propaganda like you said. Though there migh be a kernel of truth in it as Mossad have all the intel that the Americans have and more, and may have alerted associates in the area that an attack was imminent. None of us will ever know.

2) They may be sophisticated, but not THAT sophisticated. There are pilots for a reason.

3) If you want to start a war it's better to portray yourself as the vicitm rather than the aggressor. You let your adversary cast the first stone so you can throw a hundred back and still claim that you're acting in self-defense. Especially when you are carrying out a ruthless classwar at home, it helps to have a foreign enemy to rally against. It used to be the Communists, now it's the Arabs. Patriotism, nationalism, racism, call it what you will. It still serves the same interests.

4) World leaders are just symbols. The point is that America is carrying out the same imperialist agenda it's been doing for decades. Wether you incite coup d'etats overtly or covertly is beside the point. The IMF or the Army, you use different tools for different situations. Democracy is another symbol, it's just another way of saying "Our worldview, our culture". It's got nothing to do with how much control you and I have over our lives and the political desiscions that affect it. Chosing between two fractions of the same party once every forth year is a nothing more than a spectacle.

5) How is this something new? Colonialism isn't just something that happened a couple of hundred years back, it's an essential part of our economical system. How many of the things around you do you think were made by happy workers in clean factories with high salaries? What about the food you eat everyday?

6) Don't get caught up in debating numbers. The control of natural resources (esp. oil) has influenced american foreign policies heavliy for a more than a century, and volumes have been written about it too. Invading countries and maintaining low-scale conflicts all around the globe is astronomically expensive (just look at the american defense budget) so naturally you want your investements to pay off in one way or another. America sold arms and supported Saddam when it was profitable to do so, and put him out of office 20 years later when that paid off best.

7) Of course. This is just standard procedure when invading a country. The Americans did it when they invaded South Vietnam, the Russians did it in Afghanistan and so on. You want to create a marionette regime as fast as possible so you can say that you're helping the country in "maintaining stability" when you hunt down resistance fighters (labeled as terrorists), sell the country arms and train it's secret police. Then the conflict turns to low-scale and the public eye turns somewhere else. You do not end the war, you just give the gun to someone else and tell them where to aim.

8) That's just lame. If you're gonna build a Barad-Dûr or a Death Star, at least make it majestic. You Americans really need to contact your congressman about this...

Btw I loved the subtle satire in calling 9/11 "Seven-eleven". It's no coincidence that Monthy Python were English...

[dandan]

7/11 I guess my subconscious mind did a funny

[Machinus]

A lot of reasonable people have become desperate and distraught after realizing that bush has anally raped american politics and our relationship with the world. But let there be no doubt about it, no american had any hand in the killings in new york. It's really really stupid for anyone to say that.

If you want to talk about rigged elections, just look at the US. I am not a conspiracy theorist but I have a hard time believing that after stealing the office in the first place, and then having another 4 years to brainwash and bribe the country into doing what he wants, that he would take the risk of letting himself not be reelected. A disturbing number of americans voted for bush, probably close to half, but I doubt that there was any chance that bush could have "lost," when he controls the media, the entire federal government, and even the goddamn voting machines.

[Revvik]

When did they start randomly attacking convenience stores?

Of course Iraq is a puppet government, it's the same formula we've applied before (although I won't bring up our current track record with said formula). 
There is no bunker in Australia.  Stop looking.  If we were going to put it anywhere, we'd put it in Madagascar, because when the shit goes down, no one even thinks about Madagascar.

In all seriousness, I don't think we're even trying to control the world.  We can't even control our own citizens.

[everythingitouchdies]

There are more people that believe this kind of stuff than you would think. Its really sad.

A large number of Americans are overly paranoid (I would not say the majority, but my guess is that most of you know one, maybe without realizing it) and they buy into just about any absurd anti media that gets spread. I decided one day to walk around and ask people two questions. First, how many U.S. senators are there? and second what was the Holocaust? The answers were not reflective of an educated community.

EITD

[xrizzo]

2. Aeroplanes are so sophisticated these days that it is impossible to fly one into a building without the (US) government allowing it.
Most airplanes currently in service were constructed and designed well before the 'sophistication' this hints at...  Even the 'modern' ones are not anywhere near smart enough (or restricted enough) to do what you said.

3. Bush was doing badly in the opinion polls and many people in the US think he (and presumably the good old Jerwish lobby - see point 1) came up with 7/11 to improve his ratings and allow him to attcak anyone he pleased.
I have heard this before, and every time I am baffled by the fact that a single person relays this statement.

4. The USA can change any world leader they please and use democracy as a tool as they can manipulate the masses.
So we chose Saddam to continue ruling Iraq for 20+ years?  No.  That is why we had (and still have) a military prescence there to deal with that 'democratic' removal.

5. America is rich because it keeps other countries poor
America is rich because it is capatalisitc.  It does not discourage individuals from accomplishing great feats.  (like communism or socialism does)

6. Americans have gained $10000 per person due to Exxon profits from high oil prices (because of Iraq)
Exxon has been making roughly $20B a year in profits (not revenues) and if you do the math, it comes out to like $70-75 USD per person in the US.  Even if you take this over 2-3 years, we are still magnitudes shy of $10k per, and as a reminder, I have not seen a single red cent of that yet.

8. American plans to run the world from a bunker 35 stories down somewhere in Australia
If they said 35 stories below San Diego, I may raise an eyebrow, but still wouldn't believe it.

These alll sound like Michael Moore topics -- and it has become a fad to bring them up as controversial issues to stirr people's emotions.  I live in California, and most of the people here are very liberal (blue state).  Funny enough though, the 2004 vote went like 43% to Bush and 52% to Kerry.  (not sure on these, but I think it was about a 9-12% difference)  The point is, even in states categorized my the media as 'red' and 'blue', there is still a large variance of opinion, and you are just as likely to meet Clinton conspirasts in 92-00 as you are Bush conspirasts now...

If you want to talk about rigged elections, just look at the US. I am not a conspiracy theorist but I have a hard time believing that after stealing the office in the first place, and then having another 4 years to brainwash and bribe the country into doing what he wants, that he would take the risk of letting himself not be reelected. A disturbing number of americans voted for bush, probably close to half, but I doubt that there was any chance that bush could have "lost," when he controls the media, the entire federal government, and even the goddamn voting machines.

This could go on forever, so I won't make any further replies. 

+Just a reminder, every single recount in Florida said Bush was the winner.  (regardless of the supreme courts intervention) 

+If Bush controls the media, how do you explain networks like CNN and there extremely liberal bias?  (multiple surveys conducted by universities have confirmed this in recent years) 

+The federal government is elected largely by the people, but if the people vote for Republicans, then they are being mind controlled?  So, from 1992-1994 when the Democrats had the Executive and Legislative branches, were the people just uncontrolled then?  We finally found the true intentions of our great country?  Any only in the last 7 elections have the Republicans re-mastered mind controlling institutions?

These types of arguments are probably best kept of a site devoted to a game as I fear few will be able to discuss the merits of the topic.

[Moxlotus]

A lot of reasonable people have become desperate and distraught after realizing that bush has anally raped american politics and our relationship with the world. But let there be no doubt about it, no american had any hand in the killings in new york. It's really really stupid for anyone to say that.

If you want to talk about rigged elections, just look at the US. I am not a conspiracy theorist but I have a hard time believing that after stealing the office in the first place, and then having another 4 years to brainwash and bribe the country into doing what he wants, that he would take the risk of letting himself not be reelected. A disturbing number of americans voted for bush, probably close to half, but I doubt that there was any chance that bush could have "lost," when he controls the media, the entire federal government, and even the goddamn voting machines.

Wow, just wow.  How has Bush raped American politics?  Stealing election in the first place?  Did you hear the independent unofficial report of those votes they wanted recounted again that still gave the victory to Bush?  4 years to brainwash the country?  What about those who were saying he was going to reinstate the draft.  By a disturbing number of Americans voting for Bush do you mean the most people ever voting for an American candidate in history?  Or did you mean "the first President to have more than 50% of the vote since Reagan's first(or second-don't remember) election?  Last time I checked, Bush controls the executive branch of government.  Last time I checked, the major news channels like to take stabs at Bush whenever they get the chance (Dan Rather).  There is also no proof of any tampering the Republican party did with voting machines.  If you want to talk about voting tampering, ask Mayor Daly of Chicago.

ANYWAYS...back to on topic

Dandan, your counterpoints are very good and I couldn't have thought of anything better.  Many of those are just retarded (where the hell is my 10 grand?).

[Matt]

By a disturbing number of Americans voting for Bush do you mean the most people ever voting for an American candidate in history?

You say this like it means something. It doesn't. You know who the man who got the second most votes ever was? John Kerry. There are simply more Americans now than ever before.

[kirdape3]

1: While one of the big winners from the September 11th attacks is in fact Israel (whether this is a good or bad thing is entirely dependent on which side in that mess in the Middle East you back), as far as I know there were no real demographic changes from normal.

2: While we can make military planes land on an aircraft carrier in certain sea states, the pilot always has the authority to override the autopilot.  I seriously doubt that even if anti-collision mechanisms were in place that they would override the pilot's manual input.

3: The actual goals of all of this maneuvering are the defense of Israel and energy resources.  Defending American soil isn't seen as terribly difficult (it isn't, oh look you knocked down two giant buildings how laucky time to invade and conquer your entire country in a few months amiright Afghanistan), but 9/11 was used as a pretense for a much older series of goals.

4: Sure.  Erasing the capital city in which the leader lives has a rather deleterious effect on his ability to rule effectively.

5: America is rich because we have a ton of resources and haven't had any serious damage in about 150 years.  Compare that to Europe, China, or Japan - most of their economic growth has been to restore themselves after getting flattened one way or another.

6: If by 'gained $10000' you mean 'lost $1000', entirely correct.  This series of misadventures is already over the $300 billion mark.

7: Fixed?  Not really.  Puppet?  Absolutely.  The current government in Iraq is only in existence because of American protection, and even that is tenuous.  Having as much control over security as everyone else combined gives America a freedom to dictate terms that most other factions in Iraq lack.  (Notable exception: Grand Ayatollah Sistani, who forced early Iraqi elections with a single fatwa).

8: If America was half as awesome as most of these things claim, it would be an orbital battle platform.  Bunkers are targetable - it's really hard to yet imagine something that would reliably punch through a battle station's defenses.

[jpmeyer]

With regards to #8, Cheney's Undisclosed Location has got to be somewhere!

[jcb193]

8. American plans to run the world from a bunker 35 stories down somewhere in Australia

 

If you actually needed a functioning bunker 35 stories below the earth, who would be left to govern?

[Dr. Sylvan]

Wow. I guess now I know why everyone is always making fun of California. Dandan, your relatives may be the people who voted for the porn star who was running for California's Governor seat!

There's a lot of fishy stuff in the 2000 and 2004 elections, but pleeease don't rehash it here. There's other dank corners of the internet for that kind of thing. (Search Slashdot for "Diebold".) The most important thing is that despite virtual governmental monopoly at the federal level, the Republicans still can't make any major changes except to be less fiscally responsible than any five hundred people have ever been before in this country before. Which is both sad in that change is needed and happy in that some people want to make totally retarded changes.

[Saucemaster]

Wow. I guess now I know why everyone is always making fun of California. Dandan, your relatives may be the people who voted for the porn star who was running for California's Governor seat!

People make fun of California because they're jealous.  THIS particular scenario is just why people make fun of paranoid hippy freaks.

[MrZuccinniHead]

if arnold loses his re-election, i would hate to see the person in power who said all this.  This is all insane!

[Klep]

1. Not one Jew was killed in the 9/11 attack. They didn't turn up for work that day (see point 3)
Absolutely false.

2. Aeroplanes are so sophisticated these days that it is impossible to fly one into a building without the (US) government allowing it.
Absolutely false.

3. Bush was doing badly in the opinion polls and many people in the US think he (and presumably the good old Jerwish lobby - see point 1) came up with 9/11 to improve his ratings and allow him to attcak anyone he pleased.
While Bush was in fact doing terribly in the polls and looking to be a "lame duck" president, he did not cause the attacks.  For a while people thought that it was possible the administration knew it was going to happen and did nothing to stop it, but it seems the administration and intelligence community just missed or willfully ignored a number of warnings that a similar attack might be in the works.

4. The USA can change any world leader they please and use democracy as a tool as they can manipulate the masses.
This is also false.  We can't change any world leader we don't like.  Just a number of them.

5. America is rich because it keeps other countries poor
This has a kernel of truth in it.  Our support of organizations like the WTO and concepts like "free trade" result in a lot of developing countries being unable to become developed countries.  The problem with "free trade" is that it really means "free trade for us."  When developing countries raise tarrifs on products they want local industries to be able to compete favorably with, we accuse them of not supporting "free trade" and bring diplomatic pressure to cause them to lower those tarrifs and allow our goods in cheaply.  At the same time, the US keeps high tarrifs on goods those developing nations are best able to produce cheaply, in particular argicultural goods and textiles.  The end result of this system is that the US reaps all of the benefits of "free trade" because we have a bigger stick to swing.

6. Americans have gained $10000 per person due to Exxon profits from high oil prices (because of Iraq)
Where's my $10k?  I could really use it right now. 

7. The Iraqi elections were fixed and the government there is a puppet government
While we are certainly capable of this, I do not think that is the case in Iraq.  Whether they are able to maintain independence from us in spite of threats to withdraw support in the future remains to be seen.

8. American plans to run the world from a bunker 35 stories down somewhere in Australia
This is preposterous.

[Jacob Orlove]

It's sad how many people still believe in the modern day equivalent of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (and it's really sad how many people still believe in the actual Protocols). Anti-semitism is alive and well in the world, just as it has been for the past few thousand years.

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

[Revvik]

Forgive my ignorance - Protocols of Zion?  That sounds like a really poorly written movie more than anything.

EDIT: that seems a little extreme, that people go to those lengths.  If I hated someone, I wouldn't forge major works of literature (term loosely applied).  Hell, anything more than a bomb threat in their name is more effort than I'd put in.
I guess this is where freedom of the press does become dangerous, whether you like what I'm saying or not: mass-producing a work that can inspire mass-hatred of a group of people becomes dangerous when it results in said book being taught as fact in schools.

[Klep]

Forgive my ignorance - Protocols of Zion?  That sounds like a really poorly written movie more than anything.

I'd watch it.

EDIT: maybe

[jpmeyer]

Forgive my ignorance - Protocols of Zion?  That sounds like a really poorly written movie more than anything.

I'd watch it.

EDIT: maybe

If it hasn't come out already, there is going to be a release very soon of a Will Eisner comic about the Protocols.  I really want to check it out.

[Hi-Val]

Believing that the United States might attack its own citizens is not totally without evidence though. I can see why people might believe it, seeing as how it's been thought about in the past.

[Jacob Orlove]

EDIT: that seems a little extreme, that people go to those lengths. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

[Revvik]

  well, now you're just pointing out the obvious one.  I kinda always told myself the National Socialist movement was an isolated incident, and that every other anti-Semitic remark I'd heard throughout my short life had about as much meaning as the "three guys go into a bar..." jokes.

"We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington. The terror campaign could be pointed at Cuban refugees seeking haven in the United States. We could sink a boatload of Cubans enroute [sic] to Florida (real or simulated). We could foster attempts on lives of Cuban refugees in the United States even to the extent of wounding in instances to be widely publicized."

Bolded for emphasis, I love the compassion here.

[Jacob Orlove]

I kinda always told myself the National Socialist movement was an isolated incident, and that every other anti-Semitic remark I'd heard throughout my short life had about as much meaning as the "three guys go into a bar..." jokes.

Because only Nazis have ever killed Jews?

[Revvik]

Point taken, but I meant in more recent history. 

[Jacob Orlove]

Point taken, but I meant in more recent history. 

Here's some more modern examples of serious anti-semitism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_anti-Semitism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_claims_regarding_Jews_or_Israel (omg, back on topic!)

I'd get non-wikipedia links, but that would both require a lot more work, and raise a lot of bias issues. Neautral sources are most crucial when talking about contentious issues like this one.

[Revvik]

OMG, back on topic!

This is kind of a hurried response, as I should be working right now.
1. "4,000 Israeli employees did not show up to work on September 11 (the source's term, "Israeli", was frequently changed to "Jewish" as the rumour spread)." Israeli & Jewish are not 100% the same, but this is answered in number two here
2. "Unnamed "Arab diplomatic sources" had told a Jordanian newspaper, Al-Watan, that the Israeli Shabak had warned these employees not to show up at work." Setting aside the fact that the sources were unnamed and otherwise unsubstantiated, if some guy from the Middle East said "Going in to work tomorrow would be a big mistake", I'd be chillin' at home.
There's actually a number of theories behind this.  Say:
Someone found out about these plans.  U.S. fails to take any action, for whatever reasons.  The faction who discovered the plans gets the word out to ensure that none of their people are on site.
The statement at #2 is incredibly ambiguous, all that matters is how you take it.
3. "According to "Aharon Bernie" of Yediot Aharonot, Shabak had prevented Ariel Sharon from going to New York City for a pro-Israeli festival there."  <--- I'll admit to having no idea what this means, and I didn't feel like doing the research on any of those links.
4. "The FBI had arrested five Israelis four hours later who were filming the burning building with, in Al-Manar's words, 'what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery.'"
Assuming this ties in with point 2, and these folk were workers who skipped out, then one of these is possible:
- Joy at being alive and listening to the warning to stay away, mockery for us not listening as well.
- They didn't enjoy their job?  I know if something terrible happened to my workplace, I'd be fetching a camera and planning a party for later in the evening.  Kind of glib, but whatever - I haven't written a paper in 2 years.
You could also put forth a theory of people looking to assign blame to anybody, and police officers just going around being extra belligerent.  Or maybe they possess a bias.

I'm not even a natural skeptic, but this completely fails to convince me at all.  It's the kind of thing people would do in elementary school.
"Hans, did you eat the glue?"
"Ja, but Abraham over there said a naughty word!"
Only magnified.

[Jacob Orlove]

I can't tell at all what you're trying to say, especially when you mix quotes in without differentiating them from your comments like that, but did you actually read the article/links? They do an excellent job of addressing the validity of the various claims (mostly false).

[Revvik]

I read the last link more than the others.  In quotations, I copied the original four points and added my own emphasis as to why I thought right off the bat that they were false.

[Dr. Sylvan]

It just occurred to me that a conspiracy theory involving a bunker 35 stories underground in Australia demonstrates its own ignorance magnificently. We already have (a) NORAD, an entire mountain devoted to a military installation, which I believe can withstand direct nuclear assault, (b) the bunker where Congress and specific VIPs get to hide if there's a nuclear danger situation, and (c) the shelter under the White House, which IIRC is supposed to be able to take a nuke directly overhead without collapsing.

The White House shelter is down about 300 ft, I think. 35 stories (depending on definition) might not even be that much. Who needs Australia? Also, if they want to rule the world, we are doing a terrible job gathering power, because Defense Secretary Rumsfeld is practically crusading to reduce the overall number of troops in our armed forces, and to reduce the number we have in areas that don't need such a huge commitment, like South Korea's contingent being cut from 37,000 to 12,000 men.