Serious Discussion: Is Magic Dying?

[KDenz81]

Personally, I have been playing since the dawn of 4th edition.  I'm an oldschool player who builds fun decks to fool around and have a good time playing with my friends.  I remember when 4th came out and my friends would sit down and have a war, quite litterally with the amount of creatures on the board. 
In today's environment Agro is dead.  It's all Combo or Control. 
I remember when Combo decks were built around cards like Underworld Dreams, Maraxus of Keld, Ank of Mishra, or combos like Raging Goblin and Hatred.  I remember when people had to actually think about cards and card combinations to find a way to win.
In today's environment there are cards that are combos in themselves, Yawg Will for example.
I remember when people built original and clever decks that had interesting themes to them, like the 7 deadly plagues of Egypt, or a Dracula's Curse deck.
In today's environment, it's all about the Net decks, and who has the most money to buy the best cards.  There is no thought process involved, play a deck that's based around a combo, spend enough money to build it, and win. 
I remember going to the best tournament ever.  It was a story line based tournament.  Every last player's deck had to have some sort of storyline behind it.  If the deck composed of two opposite colors it wasn't allowed, because those colors were considered at war.  Others were built around one creature as their general like Gaea's Leige and he was leading his troops against the hordes of the Goblins.  The winners of each match up continued the storyline for the entire tournament, and each win and loss was recorded as a story.
In today's environment, tournaments are all about money, playing to win, and aquireing "power".  Also, it's about who's first turn combo kill can go off first, TPS, FCG, Charbelcher....
I remember when Tempest came out and players complained about abilities such as Shadow and Phasing.  New abilities were really frowned upon by the 4th edition crowd. 
In today's envorionment there are so many new abilities that come out with each set.  Each block now has at least 4 or 5 new abilities or card types.  Just look at Kamigawa Block:  Channel, Sweep, Epic, Soulshift, Bushido, Vigilance, Flip cards.... I'm probably forgetting some too.  What next?  Flip artifacts, bring back interrupts?
The game is still simple and easy and anyone can learn how to play it, but now it doesn't require brains.  It requires a computer, and money. 
I remember when you had to figure out the insane combos on your own, and you never let anyone else know about them.   
In today's environment everyone can see your deck build, make one similar to it and play with it.

I have friends that started playing this game when it first came out and are appauled at what it has become.  My good friend Chris was quoted as saying.  "When Magic hit it was like a nuke going off.  The big mushroom cloud was the frenzy that came afterwards and for the last several years.  However, after the smoke gets to a certain point it levels off, settles down, and dissipates."  The buble that is Magic will burst.  I'm not saying it will today, tomorrow or anytime soon.  After Hasbro brought Wizards of the Coast the game has become too structured.  Sets are released on a corporate scheduel, not just whenever WotC would develop and test the cards and then release them.  There are numerous things that I and many others have grown to dislike about the game, for example cards that have win conditions on them such as Test of Endurance, or Mortal Combat.  Cards like this should never have been printed.  The entire root of the problem was when the creator of the game sold his idea to Wizards.  After that he had no direct control over what direction his game would take.  He had no say in what Wizards would or would not print or what they'd come to make of his game.  Of course, there will be the diehard fans that will play Magic no matter the circumstances.  But it has come to my attention that Magic is dying.  Type 2 or type "screw" is dying out in places where it was once the standard, and being replaced by Type 1, which draws bigger crowds, more money and opportunities.

Ok, enough of my ranting, I've made my point, and given my opinions.  If you agree or not, that's up to you.  The fact of the matter remains that the game has been steadily going downhill.  An old quote says that "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  Well Magic wasn't broke, and after 4th edition Wizards tried to "fix" it up a bit by coming out with new abilities more and more while letting other well known abilities fade into obscurity like Banding.  Magic, in my mind, won't survive another 10 years.
That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Denz

[cssamerican]

Most of the design mistakes were made in before 4th edition   

Ancestral Recall
Balance
Mind Twist
Time Walk
Timetwister
Wheel of Fortune
Channel
Fastbond
Black Lotus
Mox Emerald
Mox Pearl
Mox Jet
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Library of Alexandria
Demonic Tutor
Black Vise
Regrowth

So thats 20 cards out of the 50 on the restricted list are pre 4th edition, and I would put money that those cards are the reason at least 15 of the remaining 30 cards are soooo broken they needed to be restricted. I am not even counting the cards that are banned in Type 1, all of which were pre 4th edition. And even if [card]Contract from Below[/card] wasn't an ante card I still think it would have been banned, that card has design screw up written all over it.

The point I'm making is I don't know the future of Magic, but I do know WotC has gotten better at making cards. You had fun playing back in the day because frankly no one knew how to play the game, including yourself. I am sorry that you don't like playing it now that you know how to play. Sounds like the moral of this story is ignorance is bliss; however, you were too smart to stay a dumbass and enjoy it. I have read that story at least a hundred times on these forums

[apoc7k]

I would just like to touch on a few little matters here.

First off, the talk about abilities, mechanics, and other things printed.

I suppose I can understand why you're unhappy. Wizards really did overload magic with a lot of mechanics. At first, a lot of them gave way to interesting decks. The problem is, over time, many of these mechanics became very inefficient and thus unused. Some of the newer mechanics will see very little play in type 1 as well. Things like the Epic mechanic would be very difficult to utilize well... many people won't even bother to try.

I also understand why some people don't appreciate the alternate win condition cards that have been printed. The thing is, how many of these do you see used competatively today? The only one I have seen as of recent has been Battle of Wits.

The talk about type 2 dying out has a few reasons as well.

It's true that in some places, people have drifted away from type 2 for type 1. This happens for many-a-reason. Obviously, there will be people frustrated with a format that has many new mechanics constantly popping up, adding far too many extra dimensions to the gameplay. Probably one of the reasons that some people don't think about is simply this. Type 1 is, in it's own respect, a more prestegious format than the others. The reason I say this is because of the more expensive decks. While it's true that people with money and/or power can make very nice decks, it still requires a set level of skill to pilot the deck efficiently. Type 1 also offers one thing in select tournaments that some people overlook, but the poorer of the crowd (such as myself) take a great delight in. I'm talking about proxies. Proxy tournaments are one of the things that really attracts people into playing type 1. I'm sure that most of the people that will read this have seen the times when a person will take a moderately (sorry to those who might get mad if you are one of these people) crappy deck, slap power into it, and then play it with a big grin on their face.

The third point is about the 'Theme-based Tournaments'.

Just because people don't hold these very often doesn't mean that they don't anymore. Even then, that's beside the point! If you want to play a tournament like that, hold one! Around here, me and friends will occasionally hold big games and tournaments of all sorts. Sometimes we will do ones where all decks have to be tribal-based, other times its a double-elimination Emperor tournament (the funnest 77 hours of my life I might add), or even more! Hosting tournaments can really do a lot for a metagame. If you can host fun events, and make sure the people that played had a good time, there's nothing stopping them from coming back again to play some more.

Anyways, That's all I really wanted to say about that. I really do understand what you are getting at, and I'm glad that somebody points out these things. Sometimes when certain things with formats and metagames go bad, it's up to us (loyal MTG players) to fix the problem.

And the point that cssamerican made... good call! You are absolutely right about the true mistakes made in the game, but the restricted mistakes are still uber broken in the meta. With the SoLoMoxen as almost definate staples in any deck (strange enough, I have a deck that solomoxen will actually hurt the efficiency of the deck), the game really is still as broken as a ceramic cup dropped from the top of the empire states building.

So anyways... farewell until next time, viewers (god that feels like I'm a T.V. reporter or something).

[Nefarias]

Your anger at Magic is misplaced. It seems to me that you just don't like competitive Type 1. A lot of people complain that it's too broken, and now they can list you amongst their ranks. It's a perfectly reasonable complaint, but it obviously isn't going to be shared by most of the members on this board. The cards from 4th Edition still exist. No one is preventing you from sitting around the table with some friends and having Sengir on Serra battles. It's true that Aggro strategies aren't the way to go in competitive Vintage Magic, but if you don't like that there are plenty of other options. Just over the past year, an aggro deck cause the biggest mishaps in Type 2 since Combo Winter 8 years ago.

It's kind of funny that two of your complaints are clearly addressed in Mark Rosewater's most recent column. The first is the recent mass of keywords. Wizards has made a concious effort to increase the number of keywords, even though they aren't increasing the number of mechanics. The example he brings up are Heart Warden/Yavimaya Elder, etc. from Destiny. If made today, those would've been keyworded to increase the simplicity of the game. He also laments about how people don't like the Masques has no keywords (it had many tied together themes that weren't keyworded or tied by creature types). They are merely trying to tie things together and increase communication. (Though, in your defense, he believes Sweep went too far.)

The second is the issue you have with Test of Endurance, Epic Struggle, Battle of Wits, Chance Encounter, and Mortal Combat. The mantra he continually repeats is "If you don't like it, it wasn't designed for you." You have to realize that there are many other players playing this game that play it for many different reasons, and like different things about it. You obviously don't like keywords, inventive cards, or brokenness, and do like and old-school concepts. Seriously though, what have those cards ever done to you? If you don't like 'em, don't play with them.

The most wonderful thing about Magic is the number of ways it can be played, and if you don't like playing a certain way, ignore it and play how you want.

[xrizzo]

The point I'm making is I don't know the future of Magic, but I do know WotC has gotten better at making cards. You had fun playing back in the day because frankly no one knew how to play the game, including yourself. I am sorry that you don't like playing it now that you know how to play. Sounds like the moral of this story is ignorance is bliss; however, you were too smart to stay a dumbass and enjoy it. I have read that story at least a hundred times on these forums

This is SO true.  Looking back, it is pure comedy the decks we ALL used to play.  It is somewhat sad to move on, but it is nice to reminisce every once in a while. 

From the tone of the post, it feels more like you are concerned with the amount of money required to be competitive in T1.  If you had just bought power back in 4th edition, you would be rich now!  Seriously though, many 'sports' or 'hobbys' require some financial investment to enjoy.  (golf, scuba diving, fensing, etc)  At least with vintage magic you can get a large percentage of that back (or more!).

As others have mentioned while I type this, there is nothing preventing you from enjoying the game the way you want to!  Back in 4th edition, the 'information super-highway' was just getting started, and there was no massive online community to teach us how to play optimized decklists.  Just because there is today doesn't mean it has to ruin your experience.

[Toad]

Magic is in a very good shape. I have access to the attendance numbers on the different pre releases in France, and these numbers keep increasing pre release after pre release. You are aiming at the wrong thing in your thread. You are not blaming Magic, you are mostly blaming T1 and Its speed. If you don't like playing against players aiming at goldfishing over you game after game, just stop playing T1, and try other formats. Mirrodin Block Constructed and Mirrodin Standard were based around a 9 mana Sorcery (Tooth and Nails). One of the Champions of Kamigawa Block Constructed most valuable card is Sway of the Stars, a 10 mana Sorcery, and the standard mass removal is Final Judgement, a 6 mana Wrath of God variant. This is hardly fast and non interactive.

You can also play Casual Magic with your friends. This is something I do multiple times a month with my friends, and we still have to be bored by a single game. When you Spelljack the Mageta the Lion played by an opponent that would have killed the hardcasted Verdant Force your partner has just Treachery'ed, you know speed is not a concern. Yet, we are playing with all the broken cards in Magic, the 5 Moxen, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Yawgmoth's Will and others. In a fair way. I even tend to draft Wrath of God over Ancestral Recall.

[Pizzatog]

Ive been playing since the game came out! well, pretty much. Ive been playing since revised. I stopped playing during the Urza combo winter and started again right after invasion. I think the game is at its best right now, although I do miss the good old days, as anyone. In any case, no one is preventing you from getting together with your friend and playing with pre 4th edition cards and rules. Thats what we do sometimes (Ice age block or draft, pre 6th rules, etc)

[Limbo]

This is SO true.  Looking back, it is pure comedy the decks we ALL used to play.  It is somewhat sad to move on, but it is nice to reminisce every once in a while.

You can also play Casual Magic with your friends. This is something I do multiple times a month with my friends, and we still have to be bored by a single game. When you Spelljack the Mageta the Lion played by an opponent that would have killed the hardcasted Verdant Force your partner has just Treachery'ed, you know speed is not a concern. Yet, we are playing with all the broken cards in Magic, the 5 Moxen, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Yawgmoth's Will and others. In a fair way. I even tend to draft Wrath of God over Ancestral Recall.

I couldn't agree more. Although I really like playing Type I, I usually prefer to play it in tournaments, as I find the challenge of the tournaments very interesting. In tournaments, I am a Spike, with the usual Johnny flavour.

I like to play(test) games outside tournaments as well, but as stated above, nothing beats using Kiki-Jiki on a Bringer of the Blue Dawn, just to draw an extra 2 cards, using Recurring Nightmare on your Veteran Explorer, just to filter lands out of your deck or Confiscating an opponents Darksteel Reactor one turn before it wins him the game

If you say it is hard to be a succesful Timmy in the competitive Type I tournaments, then you are correct. If you say the Timmy hasn't a chance to play magic anymore, then I completely disagree.

[Jacob Orlove]

The closest I've gotten recently to that oldschool feeling of awesome is Type 4, which has itself evolved past its own "ignorance is bliss" phase.

In any case, Magic has been "dying" since 1994, and I expect it to keep doing so for decades, if not longer.

Oh, and moved to basic community.

[Raven Fire]

The fact of the matter remains that the game has been steadily going downhill.  An old quote says that "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

First off, this is not "The fact of the matter".  It is clearly your opinion.  There are many people who think Magic is doing just fine (or even improving) and they are entitled to their opinions just as you are to yours.  Also, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." may be a quaint cliche, but it's a terrible business model for long term success.  If businesses maintained that attitude, we'd still be using DOS (or maybe typewriters) and flying by zeppelins.  Progress, Invention, and Innovation are keys to survival rather than stagnation.  If Magic had NOT made changes, it would not still be around.  And honestly, how is winning by Test of Endurance all that different than getting whacked by a massive late game Fireball (or an early Channel-Ball)?

[Ben Kossman]

No. I think the last few sets have been top notch. I still remember The Dark and Fallen Empires. If one could make the argument that Magic was in critical condtion it was back then. If anything I think it's growing.

[Whatever Works]

To me magic isnt dieing at all. Your anger appears to be not at T1 either, but it should be directed at casual magic. Casual decks are becoming less casual (T4 Stax becoming more and more similar), and now things like 5 color magic the most relaxed format is super serious and dedicated to whoever can draw contract first to win.

I look back at the old days and go "wow they were fun" I look at the present and go "wow this is fun (when i win)"

[Danzig]

When I started playing I never even noticed the rarity symbols. Decks were put together with themes and tribes. Then you get to a point where you want to dominate and show off a good deck. You realize that cards have a secondary value and it will cost you money to play. Entering tournaments with prize structures that can pay you back on your investment force you to become competetive. Then you lose your innocence/inner-child. You see cards as having higher values and you treat them accordingly and that kills the game.

I can have mor fun, sometimes, just playing a random deck that I don't have to keep my eye on at a store in case it grows legs and runs off. I can't enjoy the social aspects as much when I have to keep a "Don't trust anyone around my Oath deck attitdue". One way or another "Money" ruined Magic. But it isn't dying the way Cloey Vector is dying.

[jpmeyer]

In addition to the other things pointed out already:

1) Following the Saga block hiccup, the number of cards sold each year continues to increase
1a) With the sales from Kamigawa block, Magic has now sold 80% of the cards that Pokemon managed to sell.   :shock:
2) Part of the reason that Magic has gone on for so long is because of the competitive side.  Magic was one of the only games to feature this for a long time (Legend of the Five Rings being the only one I can think of).  Now games like Vs. come out which use competitive play as the selling point.

[dandan]

I think most of the newer sets would rank very highly in terms of fun/innovation/flavour and playability. There are plenty of excellent casual cards being printed. Wizards' organisation of tournaments has improved and have the DCI have the best B&R list ever (including making a new format to give you Type I without the brokenness). Wizards are listening and are delivering a quality product.

I see no signs of death there.

I think on a local level, you have to accept that many playgroups get older and may stop playing Magic due to kids and other drains on time and money (Magic is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay cheaper than kids). This is life. Life is change. But plenty of people are taking up Magic and it is growing rather than in decline.

[virtual]

I personally would be the most worried about Magic if Type 1 was in a poor state.  That being said, I think the format is extremely healthy right now, with lots of archetypes being viable, and the game coming down to meta-game preditions and skill (as well as the luck that always exists in a game of chance). 

As long as type 1 hasn't been broken to the point of 1 true deck with no other options, (or nearly so) ((refraining from obligatory Trinisphere commentary, though what i'd say might not be obvious)), I think magic as a whole will be around.  As with anything things will gain and lose popularity.  If wizards keeps printing cards, and they can keep getting the younger generation involved, then I see no end in sight (and in fact just with a growing player base... I dunno about you, but I'd still like to make the play: underground sea, mox sapphire, pass the turn, mana drain that spell, when I'm 90, just like I did 11 years ago (or whenever it was that legends came out) )

-Virtual

[Dr. Sylvan]

This death of Magic meme comes up a lot whenever someone is getting to the end of their time playing, because it is dying for that person, or, alternatively, you see a friend moving out of the game and your brain exaggerates that as a trend throughout the game. It's not. A lot of people have a little too much Johnny in them to enjoy the game once they know that most of their Johnny ideas are actually terrible to a Spike. Some people get motivated by this to try to find the one good idea in a sea of bad, some people get frustrated and quit. So for most people, after a certain amount of time, Magic isn't fun.

Simply by being on this site, most of us are extremely above average in the amount of time we have enjoyed the game. The average is 2-3 years, and it's usually in someone's early-to-mid teen years. Most of us are running at about 8-10 years. We are freaks. At this end of the scale, there are just insane pressures to stop: think of the time pressure of being a new lawyer, a parent, or whatever. I'm just shocked we have as high a retention rate as we do.

PS: If you want creature interaction, play Limited.

[Killertree]

That is why they separate Vintage, Extended, and standard.