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Author Topic: Rotten Fish  (Read 3468 times)
Gleemax
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« on: June 07, 2005, 07:49:56 pm »

Fish is a deck that I have been tinkering with for some time now.  I became interested in it following my friend's Waterbury performance a long, long time ago.  Recently, though, and before its high-profile debut as "WU Tang Fish"  ("[Report] 4/30/5 WU TANG Fish Wins Waterbury VI"), I had engineered a similar (but far inferior) version, beginning as UWr Fish (with Grim Lavamancer, Lava Dart, Swords to Plowshares, etc.).  This design moved through the "Cunning Wizard" phase ("Cunning Wizard - testing a new deck"), ran Swords of Fire and Ice, and attempted a green splash, a la J||<3's WTF ("Worse Than Fish - Star City "Power Nine": Richmond *Top 8*").
In the past week, I had an inspiration.  Looking at Ben Kowal's NINJA SWORD ("Short Bus NINJA SWORD"), I wondered if I could steal what useful creatures he ran and include a few pieces of my own to make a viable deck.  Rotten Fish:

// Lands
    4 Mishra's Factory
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Wasteland
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Island
    3 Swamp

// Creatures
    2 Withered Wretch
    3 Spiketail Hatchling
    1 Seasinger
    3 Phyrexian Negator
    3 Cuombajj Witches

// Spells
    4 Force of Will
    3 Pithing Needle
    3 Daze
    2 Stifle
    1 Demonic Tutor
    4 AEther Vial
    4 Standstill
    1 Time Walk
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Ancestral Recall

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Withered Wretch
SB: 2 Seasinger
SB: 4 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 4 Dandan
SB: 3 Diabolic Edict


Card-by-card:

The Mana Base.

The following should be common sense:
    4 Mishra's Factory
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Wasteland
    2 Island
    3 Swamp
    4 Underground Sea

    4 Bloodstained Mire - This card, run over Polluted Delta, allows Pithing Needle to name the latter.  I have never been hurt by the inability to search for basic Island, because of the concentration of BB spells and Underground Sea.

Men.
    2 Withered Wretch - This card has many uses.  Among them are fizzling Goblin Welder,  removing cards prior to Gaea�s Blessing, stopping Dragon cold, slowly beating out Tog, fighting Gifts Ungiven, fizzling Recoup, weakening Yawgmoth�s Will�  the list goes on.  It functions under Standstill and can be Vialed out.  The only reason I did not include four was because of the low amount of Blue cards to pitch to FoW.
    3 Spiketail Hatchling - Because of Aether Vial, Wasteland, and other small mana denial effects, this earns a place.  This *needs* to be a blue two-drop for Vial and FoW to be efficient, and this does the job.  However, any improvement would be helpful.
    1 Seasinger - Without this, Oath and randomblue.dec become much more difficult matchups.  It pitches to FoW, and steals Akroma (and occasionally DSC, SotN, or Goblin Welder) in a way much more efficient than Old Man of the Sea.
    3 Phyrexian Negator - Because Rotten Fish can only delay the opponent from winning so long, the Negator is required as a beatstick.  This card has been gold for me.
    3 Cuombajj Witches - The card Icatian Javelineers wishes it was.  Bad synergy with Seasinger and Phyrexian Negator, but if one of those cards is active you should be winning anyway.  Contrary to intuition, it is not inefficient with the high concentration of x/1's because the Hatchlings will either be dead or useless if you are using this ability.  This kills Welder and singlehandedly destroys FCG, and gives Rotten Fish the ability to defeat Random Aggro.

Broken.
    1 Demonic Tutor - It's anything.
    1 Time Walk - This gives you the turn you need to activate Seasinger or kill with Negator.
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Ancestral Recall

Counterspells.
    4 Force of Will
    3 Daze
    2 Stifle - Stops fetchlands, welder activations, etc.

Denial and Engine.
    3 Pithing Needle - SOK's chase rare, this has replaced Null Rod (bad with Vial) and CotV (need to run four, loses usefulness after turn one).  This has been good, but not great, shutting down Welder, Bazaar, Mindslaver, and so on.
    4 AEther Vial
    4 Standstill


Matchups.

This deck has essentially similar matchups to other versions of Fish, so I will only enumerate the visible differences:

Dragon-� Pithing Needle and Wretch are your key cards; the only difficult part of this matchup is getting them into play.  Not unwinnable by any means, although difficult;  Arcane Lab helps vs. some versions, and will slow many of them down to a beatable point.

Oath - The deck's most improved matchup, due to Seasinger and Diabolic Edict.  Either of these, or a well-timed Stifle, will pave your path to victory.  Dandan is a key beater here; if they are playing Auriok Salvagers, then Arcane Lab is obviously stronger.  Either way, it is important to win before they Oath up the win or be able to take control afterwards.

Stax - If they are running any sort of Island at all, the game becomes much easier with Seasinger and the possibility of Dandan.  Pithing Needle (naming Welder) and Diabolic Edict are important, as you can keep most of their threats off the board to begin with.

CSlaver, Gifts [Belcher] - These decks are beatable due to Pithing Needles and Withered Wretch.  Stifle is less powerful, but still important card, and these decks can still simply go broken before you can do anything.  You have to outplay your opponent here especially rather than relying on hosers.

[edit: tags]
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 05:19:41 pm by Gleemax » Logged
MuzzonoAmi
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2005, 08:02:58 pm »

This actually looks interesting, certianly worth looking at, anyway. I'm not sure about Pithing Needle over Null Rod/Chalice, but this is something that needs to be tested. My primary concern is that it doesn't turn off Moxen, which makes it much easier for powered decks to simply race you and drop their bombs without thinking twice about your men. Also, while Seasinger is an interesting approach (and your point about it being a more powerful creature stealer than Old Man is very good) it dies to Lava Dart, which Old Man does not, and you can't block with her the way you can with Old Man. Is the ability to grab SotN, Akroma, etc. worth loosing this flexibility?
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Gleemax
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2005, 08:18:54 pm »

This deck does not need another blocker in Old Man; the Wretches and Witches handle anything he can.  Seasinger as a maindeck card was included with Oath almost specifically in mind - this means that she shouldn't have to worry about Lava Darts in her most important matchup.

Where Welders, Mountains, and Lava Darts are concerned, Seasinger is often a terrible card to have.  In any case where Welder is about, the SB Wretches often replace her, unless your opponent is playing a blue-heavy deck in which multiple Seasingers will be useful (stealing Platz or Titan if islands have survived.)
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nataz
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2005, 09:31:19 pm »

By far the most interesting part of this deck for me is the negators. Fish with a decent clock could be a scary thing. However, I am confused about some of your initial assesments. 

Quote
Oath – The deck’s most improved matchup, due to Seasinger and Diabolic Edict.  Either of these, or a well-timed Stifle, will pave your path to victory.  Dandan is a key beater here; if they are playing Auriok Salvagers, then Arcane Lab is obviously stronger.  Either way, it is important to win before they Oath up the win or be able to take control afterwards.

Stax – If they are running any sort of Island at all, the game becomes much easier with Seasinger and the possibility of Dandan.  Pithing Needle (naming Welder) and Diabolic Edict are important, as you can keep most of their threats off the board to begin with.

both of these seem odd to me.

as for oath, UW vial fish already has a pretty savage matchup with it. meddling mage is of course killer, and the maindeck boucers are gold. With the addition of jitte, im surprised you have a hard matchup at all. Post board white offers a-kami, chant, seal, swords, or even aura fracture, which are all way better then plain edict.

your stax assesment is werid also. Again, you are big on needle and edict, but you focus on welders. many stax decks dont even run welders, so edict becomes essentialy a dead draw. Furthermore you only run 7 counters, which will hardly make it easy for you to keep their threats off the table. Daze isnt that amazing when they are throwing out moxen, and have 4 reusable black loti.

Not to mention by cutting white/red/or even green, you are now in the two colors least able to deal with artifacts.

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thokash
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2005, 10:31:10 pm »

Someone said it before, so I will just reinforce it.  Pithing Needle does not belong maindeck and in no way comes close to Null Rod/Chalice of the Void.  All Needle does is a few little tricks with cards such as Welder and Bazaar, which although good, remains sideboard.  Null Rod/Chalice is necessary to stop the huge advantage powered decks gain by artifact mana.

The deck also lacks a consistant draw mechanism, such as Curiosity (which is almost now dead), Ninja of the Deep Hours is just awesome with Standstill/Vial, and you are even choosing the right colours for Shadowmage Infiltrator.

Like the guy before me said, have fun against artifacts!
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2005, 10:48:03 pm »

Besides running the Negator and Tutor, I really don't see any real reason to run UB fish over UW or Orlove's WTF list (UG). You can't beat artifacts, your creature choices seem totally unclear, and it just seems like this deck wants to do alot more that black can't do.

I'd at least make the change of running four Chalice of The Void main over the needle, run three ninjas, and maybe just an overhaul of the creature base in general.

Also how has it been trying to get double black for the Witches, and double blue for Dan-Dan? That just seems shaky to me.

It is a very interesting idea, but I can't see it doing better than the other color combinations that already exist.
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Gleemax
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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2005, 02:15:00 pm »

nataz:  I can only speak from experience; I will admit that I have not had an enormous amount of time to test.  However, I have decided to move from Pithing Needle to Chalice, which should be of some help.  The Negators are indeed savage.  In "stax," I also meant builds running Welder, but I should have been more specific.

thokash:  The draw mechanism in this build is Standstill -- and as far as I've seen, I have never needed a secondary draw engine.  The larger size of creatures available make this possible.  Like I mentioned above, I will be testing Chalices, although I need to cut one more card along with the Needles.  Suggestions?

Disburden:  The creatures are the most explicit choices in the deck.  Targeted graveyard removal and repeatable pinging/blocking, along with a swift beatdown, are the reasons for the inclusion of Black.  Double mana requirements have not been an issue for me because of Underground Sea and Aether Vial.

Changes:

-3 Pithing Needle
-4 Bloodstained Mire (no longer relevant without Needle)
-1 ?

+4 CotV
+4 Polluted Delta

Edit:
I was thinking about this today, and when I got home I was reminded by Zeke's post that I wanted to try Gilded Drake over Seasinger.  Input regarding that?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 02:28:14 pm by Gleemax » Logged
yodoblec
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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2005, 03:31:20 pm »

This fish deck has a really strong clock in it compared to most which can be really good, but what I don't get is the 4x Bloodstained Mire and the 1 Seasinger seems really random which i think could do better as a Wretch.
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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2005, 05:03:11 pm »

A lot of decks in Vintage still revolve around artifact power. How to you plan to get around Stax and other Workshop builds (aggro, Uba, [Id put the Riddler but Eric Miller is a madman!],etc)?

I like the clock that this deck produces, it is savage, but Next to no artifact destruction might cripple you in critical tournament situations.

Anyone got any suggestions for this argument?
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Gleemax
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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2005, 05:20:54 pm »

This fish deck has a really strong clock in it compared to most which can be really good, but what I don't get is the 4x Bloodstained Mire and the 1 Seasinger seems really random which i think could do better as a Wretch.

The Mires were originally included to avoid a problem with Pithing Needle (naming Delta).  Seasinger is an experiment; currently I have removed both for 4x Chalice of the Void.
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Gleemax
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2005, 05:41:21 pm »

Oh, and I know it's very likely that I'll be flamed for posting a "Sui-Black"-esque deck.
Sui Black sucks nub get a life nub!  Where are your Hymns and YWill man?!  I hope I play you in a tournam...

Seriously, though, Blue is just too good to pass up.  How can you let go of Walk, Ancestral, or FoW?  The remainder of the cards basically support those 6.  I did test both Nezumi Graverobber and Nezumi Shortfang before I realized that I could pay less for removal and that the discard was near-worthless without Duress, which my deck was unable to reliably cast while it still mattered.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 05:54:39 pm by Gleemax » Logged
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