[SCG Free Article] TWL Oath of Druids 2005

[xrizzo]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9815.html

Broken
Adding Demonic Tutor and Yawgmoth's Will maindeck is more than just a two-card change to any deck. It gives the deck much more flexibility, an "Oops, I win" factor, and inevitability. In a deck that consistently dumps 10-40 cards into the graveyard to fuel Yawgmoth's Will, it is an even bigger deal. I cannot over-emphasize the excellent synergy between Oath of Druids and Yawgmoth's Will. Only recently have other teams begun to catch on...

[virtual]

Under Duress - TWL's Oath of Druids 2005

I'm not sure this title is Apt.? ?Annul Oath may be more accurate, but not sure if it was chosen by Tim or SCG...


As a side note, when I run this deck, I have ended up cutting Krosan entirely (with 0 blessings still).  It takes some balls, and you have to be careful, but in my experience you can get away with it.

[JACO]

Tim,
Good article! Naturally I have a couple of points to talk about regarding your build.

First, while Yawgmoth's Will is certainly an amazing card, most of the time you guys have been casting it AFTER you have activated Oath of Druids. If you are able to do this, and don't deck yourself (like by playing Gaea's Blessing, for example), you should already be winning the game. The reason we (BHWC) didn't include it, aside from lack of synergy with Blessing, is because it is the ultimate win-more card in this particular deck. You never want to see it early, and if you've already got an Oath on the table, it's irrelevant, because you're probably going to win anyway, or at least want to protect the Oath (in which case the slot would be better used as another counterspell of some sort). Blessing also helps win Oath mirrors, whereas Will does not.

Second, I like Annul just as much as the next guy, especially when Workshops and Standstills are running around, but they are useless in a match against something good like Psychatog or Gifts.dec. Are you really going to waste resources countering a random Mox? I would ALWAYS want those to be Duress instead, in basically every match. I would rather have Mana Leak as well, especially if you are running 4 Moxes and a Lotus Petal.

[Shade]

Tim,
Good article! Naturally I have a couple of points to talk about regarding your build.

First, while Yawgmoth's Will is certainly an amazing card, most of the time you guys have been casting it AFTER you have activated Oath of Druids. If you are able to do this, and don't deck yourself (like by playing Gaea's Blessing, for example), you should already be winning the game. The reason we (BHWC) didn't include it, aside from lack of synergy with Blessing, is because it is the ultimate win-more card in this particular deck. You never want to see it early, and if you've already got an Oath on the table, it's irrelevant, because you're probably going to win anyway, or at least want to protect the Oath (in which case the slot would be better used as another counterspell of some sort). Blessing also helps win Oath mirrors, whereas Will does not.

Second, I like Annul just as much as the next guy, especially when Workshops and Standstills are running around, but they are useless in a match against something good like Psychatog or Gifts.dec. Are you really going to waste resources countering a random Mox? I would ALWAYS want those to be Duress instead, in basically every match. I would rather have Mana Leak as well, especially if you are running 4 Moxes and a Lotus Petal.

Yup.

It's also not worth altering the mana base for, basically, DTutor and Duress.  Scrying is horrible when facing the mirror that is running Intuition/AK.

[JamesPr]

Shade, I was under the impression that Intuition-Ak was almost useless in a control matchup because Intuitions are generally terrible.  Ok, you Intuition for three Aks, the one you get get's countered, and you're left with only one ak in your library as card draw.  Am I mistaken in this assumption?

Also, Scrying is much more compact a draw engine than Intuition-AK, which allows you to play other cards to improve your matchups against other decks.

Personally I have stayed away from Intuition-AK for this very reason, and I prefer an Oath Thirst for Knowledge engine over an Intuition-AK engine almost any day of the week.

[Shade]

Shade, I was under the impression that Intuition-Ak was almost useless in a control matchup because Intuitions are generally terrible.  Ok, you Intuition for three Aks, the one you get get's countered, and you're left with only one ak in your library as card draw.  Am I mistaken in this assumption?

Also, Scrying is much more compact a draw engine than Intuition-AK, which allows you to play other cards to improve your matchups against other decks.

Personally I have stayed away from Intuition-AK for this very reason, and I prefer an Oath Thirst for Knowledge engine over an Intuition-AK engine almost any day of the week.

No, that's true, but you also don't want to be sucking your own life/cards away with Scrying.  If you're running enough artifacts, I'd go with TFK instead of either, though.

On another note, the fact that the Annuls are generally being run over Duresses due to the inflexible mana base should tell you something right there.  With Will being a "win more" card, Scrying being potentially suicidal, and w/o even running a full set of Duresses, why again go down this road?

If insistant on adding black, however, I'd make the following changes:

- 4 Annul
- 3 Skeletal Scrying
- 1 Yawgmoth's Will

+ 2 Duress
+ 4 Thirst for Knowledge
+ 1 Gaea's Blessing
+ 1 Ancient Hydra (yes, I know, 3 creatures MD, blahblahblah...but it works, damn it!)

The mana base looks PERFECT to me, btw.

[JamesPr]

Scrying is exceptional, the life loss is almost meaningless in control mirrors which black was designed to play against.  Thirst can help feed Scrying, and taking out those cards you mentioned would make the TWL deck entirely different.

Also, since I didn't say this in my initial post, great job on the build it looks interesting.  Annuls are extremely potent, and can also be superior to duress in many instances not even taking into account the potential mana base problems running Duress would create.

Has your team tried any combo builds with running Will when you have that large graveyard?

[xrizzo]

Hello, sorry I haven't replied yet -- the site was down for me, and I was rather busy at work.

I did manage to post a few things on SCG's forum for the article for reference here: http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=278533

I will try to get to all the comments which I thank you for in advance!

Virtual

Annul Oath may be more accurate, but not sure if it was chosen by Tim or SCG...

  Yes, Annul Oath would have been a more descriptive title, but ah well.

Jaco

most of the time you guys have been casting it AFTER you have activated Oath of Druids. 
...
you should already be winning the game
...
because it [yawg]is the ultimate win-more card in this particular deck.

In my article I emphasized the times where I cast Yawg after Oathing to focus on the fact that the game ends the next time you get a turn.  What I didn't emphasize is how Yawgmoth's Will is always a great card to have.  Before oathing, but after a long grueling match where both players are going for board and hand position, drawing the Yawg over the blessing (a major difference between the builds) will let me replay my side of the game to that point.  I acknowledge that Yawg can be a win-more type card, but keep in mind people have built the entire salvagers deck to try to 'win-more' in the same way yawg helps us win-more.  (winning on the same turn you oath) 

they [Annul] are useless in a match against something good like Psychatog or Gifts.dec.

When everyone developed Oath, we were not focused on Tog because it was not being played, and Gifts was merely a card people said 'will be broken'.  I mentioned this over on SCG but can past it in here:

Gifts has 14 artifacts (Ben Kowal's list here http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=2496)
and you may be surprised at how much the deck can be slowed down by countering some of the better ones (Sol Ring, Lotus, Vault). Gifts really REALLY needs its Lotus. Also, if they hardcast Mindslaver/Belcher/Pentavus, you again have a nice cheap answer.
Think about dragon, fish, the oath mirror, and stax: all of these are extremely hampered by Annul.

Are you really going to waste resources countering a random Mox? I would ALWAYS want those to be Duress instead, in basically every match. I would rather have Mana Leak as well, especially if you are running 4 Moxes and a Lotus Petal.

Well, yes, I might counter an on color mox.  I will counter Lotus, Sol Ring or something else though too.  And if I don't, I can always brainstorm/mystical EOT instead.  The key thing to realize when you recommend mana leak is that if I have a mox and land, I would much rather play an oath than hold back a turn for mana leak.  The beauty of annul/brainstorm/mystical is that if you don't have acceleration in your opening hand, then you still have a great gameplan.  Mana Leak is in conflict with Oath of Druids on turn 1.  (I realize that playing 4-5 moxes gives you better odds of having mana leak when you dont have an oath as well, but so does annul, and the difference in probability and in testing has been marginal at best)  As far as more duress', I just can't stand fetching swamp/underground an nearly ensuring I won't have mana drain mana on turn 2...  I put up with it occasionally because Duress is so good, but felt the 2x Annul were stronger in the other 2 spots. 

Shade

It's also not worth altering the mana base for, basically, DTutor and Duress.  Scrying is horrible when facing the mirror that is running Intuition/AK.

It's funny you mention all the cards except Yawgmoth's Will which I hear is some good.  Also, this deck completely owns the mirror match.  (mirror being the popular MeanDeck version)  Jaco will attest to this.  Nobody who brings that deck wants to play this one (or DOA) -- and when they do, Scryings run all over intuition/AK.  Also, Scrying are much better than AK when your opponent brings in REB... 

As I said on TMD before:

I have not found scrying to be anything other than the most compact, versatile, and powerful 3 card draw engine in vintage today.

I still feel the same way today.  It is amazing. 

Intuition hurts your game against mindslaver decks (they win if they activate with a slaver in hand), and your 'draw engine' takes up 6 slots which I feel I can use more efficiently.  The loss of life is inconsequential in control matchups btw.

With Will being a "win more" card, Scrying being potentially suicidal, and w/o even running a full set of Duresses, why again go down this road?

Again, Will is not a 'win more' card most of the time.  Opposing decks are so strong and so fast now, the extra turn Yawg can save you on the actual kill is more than just a 'win more,' it is a 'win period' card.  If you get Yawg just about any other time, it is great to see because its resolution means game. 

I would like to add that your suggestions for the way to go with black could work out very well for you.  I am not trying to convert the world to this build.  My team has had a lot of success with it in varied metgames for 6-7 tournaments in a row now, and I felt it was time to write an article to discuss it in the open.  I want to acknowledge the other great Oath builds out there, and merely offer this as something that has worked well for us.

The mana base looks PERFECT to me, btw.

Thanks!

JamesPr

Also, since I didn't say this in my initial post, great job on the build it looks interesting.  Annuls are extremely potent, and can also be superior to duress in many instances not even taking into account the potential mana base problems running Duress would create.

Has your team tried any combo builds with running Will when you have that large graveyard?

Thank you for the kind words.  As far as combo builds I mentioned this briefly on SCG:

Krosan Oath Combo
-Too much graveyard hate to make this viable post board
-fun as heck pre-board!

The deck is really good, it just takes balls to ditch the whole library on a regular basis.  Most of the time with our build casting a will turns into a time walk, 1-2 ancestrals, and a dead opponent. (if you have already Oathed, then the extra time walk turn means you are dealing 18 damage and it acts as a combo kill)

[virtual]

I wanted to chip in with some commentary here. 

As mentioned in the article, I play this build with a slight variation. (-1 cunning wish, +1 mystical)  With this change, the sideboard becomes a bit less useful, but the timewalk/will become much more findable. 

Yawgmoth's will is Not a win more card.  If the game comes down to a control mirror fighting over resources, topdecking yawg is golden.  If you oath, and timewalk is in the graveyard, Yawg is golden.   If you don't oath, but timewalk is in the grave, yawg can let you resolve a huge scrying and take control of the game.  The # of games that are won because of yawgmoth's will, versus the number of games that are lost from cutting blessing, are ridiculously in the favor of playing YWill. 

First, while Yawgmoth's Will is certainly an amazing card, most of the time you guys have been casting it AFTER you have activated Oath of Druids. If you are able to do this, and don't deck yourself (like by playing Gaea's Blessing, for example), you should already be winning the game.

Activating oath once doesn't mean you win... Other more controlling builds might find it so (when you cast oath with a fist full of counters and want to just sit back and play Mono-U with a good win condition.)  But this deck is optimized to go for the throat. (if the opportunity presents itself by playing the maximum sustainable amount of moxes while maintaining a decent mana base.)  We tried to fit the last mox in, but you just end up sacrificing too much.  Also, in this deck, since a turn 1 orchard/mox/oath backed up with a pitch counter is kinda the ideal hand, you don't want to go to 61 cards for the acceleration. 

You never want to see it early, and if you've already got an Oath on the table, it's irrelevant, because you're probably going to win anyway, or at least want to protect the Oath (in which case the slot would be better used as another counterspell of some sort)

Seeing Yawg early isn't horrible.  If all it is used for is as a huge tempo gain, or to draw a force, then it wasn't a dead card.   The synergy with scrying isn't ideal, but yawg is just too good of a card to not play in a deck whose mana base and # of broken cards can support it.

Second, I like Annul just as much as the next guy, especially when Workshops and Standstills are running around, but they are useless in a match against something good like Psychatog or Gifts.dec

Gifts.dec and Tog specifically rely on their rapid mana production to be so broken.  Tog wants to drain a spell into intuition/AK, play the acceleration/deeps/other ak, into more acceleration.  Countering an on-color mox, or a big source (lotus/sol ring) is huge, and can really destroy plans.  Also of note, early game yawgs w/ lotus can be slammed for their tempo by hitting the lotus (when the yawg couldn't be countered).    Gifts.dec whole game plan is to ramp up to enough mana to EOTGUgIW.   Annuls really can get in the way of this.  Unfortunately you can't have cards that are perfect in every matchup.   I'd say that gifts is a decent matchup with this deck anyways because of it's speed and their general inability to answer a resolved oath.   Vs shops, standstills, and Null rod, I prefer annul, and it doesn't cause me to have to run less power.    Annul is certainly a spot that I play with whenever I attempt to tweak the build.  It looks weak.  However time, and time again, we came back to them.   Even in a post-trinisphere meta where we tried cutting them with thoughts that stifle, more duresses, etc might be better, we came back to them, and still found them golden.  If you aren't using duress to remove a counterspell from their hand, annul effectively does the same job, but with blue mana. 

I would rather have Mana Leak as well, especially if you are running 4 Moxes and a Lotus Petal.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like Mana Leak.  If you reach the late game, leak seems worse than annul, and if you have 2 mana, hopefully it's UU so you can drain.  Turn 1, only the Jet, emerald, and pearl, won't give that to you. 

It's also not worth altering the mana base for, basically, DTutor and Duress.  Scrying is horrible when facing the mirror that is running Intuition/AK.

What?  Scrying is fantastic, for 5 mana I'll draw 4 cards, where you'll draw 3.  Really though, scryings shine in their ability to scry for X.  They cycle, and the life loss is negligible.  With Intuition AK, you pretty much only want to draw your intuition.  If you draw your AK, you want to hold it until you draw your intuition, otherwise you're making a large sacrifice.  So, for 7 cards in your deck, you want to draw 3.  That's great if your goal is to buff up your graveyard, but that isn't oath's plan.  With scryings, you still have those 3 cards that you want to draw, and the other 4 slots become something that helps you win.  Also, Intuition sucks if you get slaved.  Horribly. 

Scrying is exceptional, the life loss is almost meaningless in control mirrors which black was designed to play against.

  Scrying is so fantastic it is ridiculous. 

A few other comments to add: 
When playing against an opponent, because you don't have blessing, you should be careful not to oath twice blindly.  A lot of times, you don't need to win in that extra turn because winning is inevitable.  As I stated above however, it isn't every game that that is the case, so if you need to win quickly oath away. 

Further on this issue, if you opponent hasn't dealt damage to himself, consider waiting a single turn for the 2nd oath.  You'll still kill them in 3 turns total, but you cut the likelihood in half of dying to your own oath activation.  (20-6:  14... 14-12: 2, you die because your spirit was 2nd to last card,  Vs:  20-6: 14, 14-6: 8, 8-12: -4, you win with 0 cards in your library)

Also, think carefully about keeping an orchard,brainstorm,mox opening hand.  This might be obvious to some other familiar oath players, but if you're unlucky and aren't able to activate your oath, that token can come back to haunt you. 

If you have big balls, cut the Krosan for the sideboard.  It'll let you do some cute tricks, but the few games you lose are worth the ones you win with that extra sideboard slot.  The other change I play (cutting a wish) goes hand in hand with this.  They're much stronger when made together.  With 3 wishes, your odds of having krosan those rare cases that you need it, are improved significantly. 

Finally, consider -1 cunning wish (or annul for all of you heathens), for a mystical tutor.  Finding time-walk or will is the win, and I really do mean it.

[Bob The Builder]

I’ve been playing oath of druids for a while and tried to come up with a kill the turn you oath, or at least the turn after…

This is the deck I came up with, and I thought maybe you should take a look.

Land:
4--Forbidden Orchard
2-Tropical Island
3-Volcanic Island
3-Polluted Delta
3-Flooded Strand
4-Island

Creatures :
1-Darksteel Colossus (the kill)

Spells :
1-Berserk (see fling but cheaper)
2- Fling (a way to do the kill in one turn if a dragon breath is on there)
2-Dragon Breath (a way to speed the kill)
1-Mystical Tutor (a way to find tinker, time walk or fling)
1-Tinker (another way to get my FAT creature out = oath n°5)
1 -Gaea's Blessing* (sometimes you need it, sometimes you don’t)
2-Living Wish (in case of a rare STP or to find a solution in the side)
1-Ancestral Recall (a must include to any deck it seems)
1-Time Walk (bang once – ouch – bang twice – dead)
4 - Oath of Druids (the deck’s engine)
1-Lotus Petal (moxen and lotus help with first turn oath’s)
1-Mox Sapphire
1-Mox Ruby
1-Mox Pearl
1-Mox Jet
1-Mox Emerald
4-Deep Analysis* (my draw engine of preference in this deck)
4-Daze* (helps with first turn oath in hand, not so good later on, but pitchable to fow)
2-Mana Drain (I just might want to cast the bastard the hard way)
 4-Force of Will (helps to cast (First Turn) Oath or protects it in mid to late game)
4-Brainstorm (a beatuifull card that doesn’t need any explenation)

Sideboard :
3 Red Elemental Blast (control, play control darnit!!)
2 Swords to Plowshares (creature heavy meta)
3 Arcane Laboratory (Fuck combo !!)
3 Ground Seal (The obvious way to kill a graveyard without hurting myself)
1 Flametongue Kavu (platinum answer)
1 Woodripper (beautifull artifact hate)
1 Ancient Hydra (welder answer)
1 Xantid Swarm (control heavy meta)

Now I know there is no lotus in here, and that’s because I don’t have one…  If I would have one it would fit in a slot;  I think a daze or deep analysis would be cut for it.

The Idea is to get dragon breath onto Darksteel Collosus when you’re oathing, attack and berserk or fling the big guy.
If not and I have fling (or draw and mystical tutor) in hand, I prefer to fling the colossus the moment he hits play and then oath again as to just wait to swing on the next turn… My second oathing can reveal a dragon breath as where time-walk would only give me one swing of 11 damage.

The *'s mean that I'm still tinkering with these slots.  (other draw, less counter for more draw, anything that comes in mind really)

Any thoughts on the deck are welcome.

[xrizzo]

I’ve been playing oath of druids for a while and tried to come up with a kill the turn you oath, or at least the turn after…

This is quite a different decklist than I have presented.  The main differences I see are that you are 1 turn faster a very small percentage of the time (when you are holding berserk/fling with the proper colored mana to cast them, and you oathed dragon breath into the grave but not blessing). 

Instead of playing deep analysis, daze, berserk, fling, dragon breaths, living wishes, and such, my build runs mana drains, skeletal scryings, cunning wishes, annuls, duresses, and black lotus.  Just based on the cards swapped out, I would be nervous that although your deck may get an occasional turn 2 win, it isn't resiliant enough to handle the crop of other great decks out there right now.  Maybe consider adding another creature (Trisk or DSC), the Thirst for Knowledge search engine over Deep Analysis, and replace 2 daze with 2 mana drain, replace living wish with cunning wish, cut 2 fling and berserk for 3 more slots depending on the way you want to go with this deck (pithing needle?). 

Anyway, I appreciate you posting the build, and I hope my comments are constructive enough to understand the weaknesses of your deck and point you in a direction I think would strengthen your deck in the current meta. 

[And11]

@Bob: You're playing way too many potentially dead cards. You will face a lot of "mulligans" because of your random ways to kill the turn you Oath. I find it WAY more important to play cards that helps you to a position, where it is irrelevant whether or not you win the turn you oath up a critter. Cards like TfK, Skeletal Scrying, Duress, Mana Drains, MisD etc.

One creature just ain't gonna cut it either...

EDIT: Damn, too late

[Bob The Builder]

Wow, the comment here is fast!!!

I agree with the DA, and was thinking Intuition or TFK.  I'm going to test those out.
I do have to say I was under the impression that Dragon Breath and Gaea's Blessing in the grave was no problem since I can stack everything so Breath goes on Colossus before Blessings shuffles my graveyard back...  Maybe I'm wrong here, but I really think you are...

If I do have to add a second creature I think another Colossus would be it, I'm not convinced I need it though...

Thx for the comments!

I'll pilot this (or a slightly changed version) to my next T1 Tournament to see if I can or can't handle the other decks out there, since playing brings the best advice!

[zulander]

I have started to play BUG oath because the GU wasn't getting it done for me. The list I am posting is the current version I am running.

Mana:24
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Forbidden Orchard
5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Combo:9
4 Oath
1 Akroma
1 Hydra
1 Platinum Angel
2 Gaea's Blessing

Control: 11
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Duress

Draw/Other: 15
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Intuition
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

The sideboard: 15
1 Darksteel
1 Tinker
1 Iridescent Angel
1 Pristine Angel
1 Woodripper
1 Duress
3 Mana Leak
3 Ground Seal
3 Chalice of the void.

[Bob The Builder]

Let me start by saying that posting nothing but a decklist is usually not good...

2nd: Tinker md and Tinker in the side?

I do have some questions though... 

1st: How has playing 3 creatures md been for you?

2nd: I see you play 2 blessings, can you explain why?  Isn't one enough with brainstorm and fetch/tutor-shuffles?

3rd: When do you ever side in Darksteel? and what do you swap it for?  Is this a metagame call? please elaborate.

[Mordred]

Although I have limited experience playing Oath, one card I always thought nifty for builds runnign multiple Cunning Wishs would be Brand.

It obviously has limited usefullness and most builds posted only have 5 sources of red.

Also, I have to agree Scrying is > Intuition AK.  Especially when running Cunning Wish, in a very tight situation you can get fancy and Wish up a removed Brainstorm to get the fat back where it belongs 

[zulander]

Let me start by saying that posting nothing but a decklist is usually not good...

2nd: Tinker md and Tinker in the side?

I do have some questions though...

1st: How has playing 3 creatures md been for you?

2nd: I see you play 2 blessings, can you explain why? Isn't one enough with brainstorm and fetch/tutor-shuffles?

3rd: When do you ever side in Darksteel? and what do you swap it for? Is this a metagame call? please elaborate.

Sorry about that, I was in a bit of a hurry to catch game 7 of the NBA Finals. Three creatures maindeck has been OK, I get an Akroma for the beats, Hydra for control and Platz for the I don't lose card. Getting either of them has its uses and no really big drawback. Two blessings is working good, I always draw one for some reason or it gets stifled so it's very useful in running two. I side in darksteel and tinker against uw fish along with the two angels. It's used in case they get a couple of mages out naming oath. It's used as oath number five if you will. I also like running accumulated knowledge- it's just too good after oath dumps a chunk of your deck into the graveyard, especially if you flipped over a blessing as well. I think I might need some more control main deck though. Any suggestions?

[xrizzo]

Two blessings is working good, I always draw one for some reason or it gets stifled so it's very useful in running two.
...
I think I might need some more control main deck though. Any suggestions?

Wow.  Did you read the article?  You never want to draw blessing.  This is why we run 0.  If you are Oathing, chances are you are winning -- and you can get into this position more often by not running dead cards.  The additional control elements you speak of can come in the form of duress, annul, or mana leak.

About your list...If you run less than 5 strip affects, then you are asking to lose the mirror.  3 creatures and 2 blessings to me is an inefficient waste of space.  If you want to run 3 creatures to make sure you don't need blessings, fine.  If you want to run 2 creatures and a blessing fine.  Don't dedicate more than 3 total spots here.  (this is why you need to cunning wish for brainstorm to put back a creature -- where I cunning wish to cast ancestral for the 3rd time)

Lastly, Intuition/AK is slow, inefficient, and loses you games when you are mindslaved.  Scrying is more compact, and better at all points in the game. 

[virtual]

Hijacking a solid thread with... unrefined... lists is bad...

Spend 15 minutes, write your list, why you chose the nonstandard choices you did, add some thoughtful commentary, and kick off a new thread in the Newbie forum.  If you don't have time, then don't just spam crap.  (I don't care what you want to watch on TV)

It was evident from the posts/commentary that the first poster of lists here didn't read the article.  The second list is at least similar, but really seems way off base as well.

If anyone said anything worthwhile since my last post, I would respond.  But if you can't add to a good conversation, don't fuck it up.

Sorry guys, the truth is cruel, but this sort of thread hijacking is horrible... I mean, if you're gunna hijack a thread, at least do it with a deck that isn't shitty.  This forum is for innovation, not ejaculation.

-Virtual

[Sean Ryan]

Amen!

I'm running a modified version of TWL Oath this Sat. at a Power tourney in Seattle and I wanted to ask a couple of questions.

First off, thanks for publishing your tech!

Modifications:

1) I swapped the Annuls for Mana Leak.  You know the argument for and against so I won't waste any more time.  However, I am cutting down to 3 Mana Leak to fit in another Draw/Tutor spot.

2) I switched Fact MD and moved a Scrying to the SB b/c. it is lets you dig deeper for the same mana cost and doesn't require cards in the yard.  When I wish for card its usually early mid game and I then have enough stuff for Scrying.

3) - 1 Cunning Wish + 1 Mystical Tutor

My questions:

I'm trying to open more room in the SB and I thought Vampiric Tutor MD could be good.  Oath always felt more like combo to me than control.  However, I worry about to much card disadvantage.  Also, the shortage of real card draw against control makes me want to go with 3 Scrying 1 Fact MD.  What do you think?

Are you still sold on Akroma/SotN as the ideal MD creature set? 

The sideboard is so tight, have you come across any gems lately?  I've thought about drooping a Waste for Volcanic to access RnR, Firestorm, REB.  I really don't have much experience with this particular build so I would appreciate any advice. 

Thanks

Sean

[virtual]

First off, thanks for publishing your tech!

We've been working on it quite a bit for a while now.  Figured we'd unveil it.  Glad you like it =)

1) I swapped the Annuls for Mana Leak.  You know the argument for and against so I won't waste any more time.  However, I am cutting down to 3 Mana Leak to fit in another Draw/Tutor spot.

2) I switched Fact MD and moved a Scrying to the SB b/c. it is lets you dig deeper for the same mana cost and doesn't require cards in the yard.  When I wish for card its usually early mid game and I then have enough stuff for Scrying.

3) - 1 Cunning Wish + 1 Mystical Tutor

#1.  We've been over this... suit yourself.
#2.  That sounds reasonable.  I like to play the deck faster than gettin to 4 mana (no sol ring, and who walks into a drain these days)  Even scrying for 2 can break the game early.  Fact is blue though, and I've been known for being accused of not liking FoF as much as the next guy.
#3.  As I said, whenver I play this (4-5 times over the past 6 months) I play with this same change. 

My questions:

I'm trying to open more room in the SB and I thought Vampiric Tutor MD could be good.  Oath always felt more like combo to me than control.  However, I worry about to much card disadvantage.  Also, the shortage of real card draw against control makes me want to go with 3 Scrying 1 Fact MD.  What do you think?

Vs control it really comes down to being able to resolve a bigger draw spell than them.  All of yours comes EOT, and well timed annuls let you get away with that 1 extra card from scrying.  (had to throw that in there)  If you can find the room for it, great add Vamp, but what do you cut...  You could try to be super-crazy and go with no wishes at all... probably a bad idea though, they are pretty useful if the game goes that long.

Are you still sold on Akroma/SotN as the ideal MD creature set? 

We toyed with lots of other stuff.  Darksteel Akroma.  Dual Akroma.  Tried a trisk.  You can't get away with trisk or hydra because we don't have blessing.  Akroma is hands down the one you want to see.  If you expect a lot of the mirror, you might consider Rorix so the legends rule doesn't own you.  With fish and it's fliers, consider that carefully.    If you do end up wanting to get a little faster, and you don't see a lot of welders, you could go akroma/darksteel and add the tinker instead of wish.  (Tinker->Lotus can also setup a bigger will)  It's an interesting option pre-board depending on how welders are around you.

The sideboard is so tight, have you come across any gems lately?  I've thought about drooping a Waste for Volcanic to access RnR, Firestorm, REB.  I really don't have much experience with this particular build so I would appreciate any advice. 

Well, the sideboard is pretty good.  But, like all sideboards it depends on your meta.  You can probably get away without Arcane Labs... doesn't seem to be too much Combo running around.  Firestorm is good, but bailing on all of those cards hurts.  REBs are alright.  I'd worry the most about beating fish these days.  WTF probably isn't bad, but stuff like Waterfront bounders or mages can ruin your day.  If UW fish runs around, consider Massacre.  The mana base is pretty tight, and the wastes make those first turn oaths just deadly, so I wouldn't touch that to add red.  Might be able to squeeze in 1 red SB card but I think that the 5 strips will help better than the red you dilute for. (We tried recoup maindeck if you oath, but the deck's too fast for that)

Actually, you might not be able to cut the Labs.  Last I saw a ton of people play TPS in WA.  When I was there, most that I saw couldn't play it well, but looks like its sprouted up more since then so who knows.

Hope that helps.  Good luck w/ the deck.

-Virtual

[xrizzo]

Looks like Ross (Virtual) basically covered your post...  I have just a couple things to add:

3) - 1 Cunning Wish + 1 Mystical Tutor

This is a great call with there being less dragon and stax decks...  The mystical fetches yawg, and all your other 'bombs' like Ancestral, Time Walk, and [post board] tinker.  In a pinch, you can still get the cunning wish, but I think your mentality has to change a little against decks where this matters:
-you can't pitch an early wish as easily
-you can only cast coffin purge 4 times, so you can't waste it on anything
-you have less access to krosan reclamation

Having said all that, I think our meta would constitute this change right now.

2) I switched Fact MD and moved a Scrying to the SB b/c. it is lets you dig deeper for the same mana cost and doesn't require cards in the yard.  When I wish for card its usually early mid game and I then have enough stuff for Scrying.

 
I love Fact, and think the changes you made are acceptable given playstyle preferance.  I think that Fact isn't quite as versatile as Scrying, and you rarely don't have enough blue cards for FOW so that is a minor issue. 

I've thought about drooping a Waste for Volcanic to access RnR, Firestorm, REB.

Well, we don't run a ruby, so you can cut pearl for ruby if you intent to run red SB cards.  This gives Lotus, Ruby, Petal, 4 Orchards as red sources.  Red cards I like in this SB: Rack and Ruin and Lava Dart (slaver heavy only).  For us, it was not worth it to jeopardize the ability to win the orchard wars and mess with their mana base.

When you get back from your tourney, perhaps you can share how you did and how your particular changes worked out?  I would be curious to know. 

[the boogie man]

     Has anyone tested crater hellion recentlly? I believe the reason hydra was viable was because it took out welders and random aggro creatures while still beating down and potentialy doing damage to the dome, but aggro decks have gotten a lot bigger. wtf can suck up 4-5 mana on one creature, not to mention the other ones, and waste an entire oath activation. with crater hellion, you still lose him in the upkeep, you have a huge blocker, and he clears the board completly, unless the player wants to discard 3 cards.

     Spike weaver is also a cool option, preventing spirit beatdown, mirrors, random aggro, and everything else. oh, and big c.

[xrizzo]

Has anyone tested crater hellion recentlly?

We tested him, but since we don't want to run blessing (for reasons above) he didn't make the cut.  Since he kills everything, you really need to recycle him, and the deck is not optimized around recycling creatures.  I think this answers your second creature suggestion as well.