Black Fish

[Rebel7284]

may i suggest testing [card]contagion[/card] as a sideboard card?  It can help the aggro matchup significantly.

A single diabolic edict main as a tutor target may prove valuable as well.

[absolute]

Don't forget Chains wrecks Combo as well, not to mention aggro control such as Fish.

Chains gives Fish a new trick, as they can break their own Standstill to Chains you for three.

Although fish's gameplan would be to get the standstill out early enough to make it useful, when chains may or may not have hit the board. Doing this also opens up the fact that they must leave the mana open for a 'instant' to do it with. They can't use brainstorm, because it would negate breaking the standstill in the first place, so the only thing is one of 7/8 counters that could be used on your turn. Otherwise, since you are an aggro deck as well, your gameplan would be to break the standstill and ruin them. I don't see how this trick really does much, but it might be practical in the late game after which you have no hand and no real worries about what draw you're going to get.

[xrobx]

Some black sideboard options you could try for critter control:

Pestilence (may suck with negators)
Contagion
Spinning Darkness
Chainers/Diabolic Edict
Smother
Vendetta
Snuff Out

Also, how well can this deck turn into a control-esq style of deck when combatting decks like Urfish, UWfish, and FCG?  Could masticore + abyss have possibilities for a transformational sideboard?

Black can hate out most decks pretty well, mind you, it usually has problems directly dealing with artifacts and that's why a splash of color may be necessary.  There are tons of options available through other colors for both critter control and hate measures.  Even some artifacts may help you deal with creatures:

Caltrops
Nevinyrral's Disk
Engineered Explosives (note: going this route requires fetches, 2+ colors, and yawgmoth's will of course)
Powder Keg


Just a few suggestions to help further this thread

[magus888]

I've been toying around with this deck for about a week. My current build runs Sword of Fire and Ice in place of Jitte. I feel it's a stronger card. It is very similar to Jitte in that it can deal with creatures and it pumps men. The big difference is that it can draw a card and it gives creatures protection from blue and red. This is ideal for equipping Negator. With Negator equipped by SoFI  it makes it harder for Negator to be damaged, thus reducing the amount of permanants that have to be sacrificed during a match up. With the SoFI's draw ability Black Fish has an even greater draw engine, and we can top deck more threats.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

[Disburden]

Jittie is about one bajillion times better than SOFAI

[Freelancer]

Jittie is about one bajillion times better than SOFAI

Do you mind explaining this one liner? It is of no use to anyone.

Personally I would say jitte is better in this deck because its 1 mana cheaper (with such a low curve this is essential), I am not entirely sure which one is better in general though. The protection is huge in a red infested metagame, even pro-blue is often usefull (against for instance fish). The extra 1 mana cost and not being able to shoot down x/2+y critters is a big downside though, the draw a card ability makes up for this somewhat. As I said I am still not sure which one is better. Jitte is probably the way to go in this deck though. (another advantage of swords is that it isn't legendary)

[49 Cents]

Jittie is about one bajillion times better than SOFAI

Do you mind explaining this one liner? It is of no use to anyone.

Personally I would say jitte is better in this deck because its 1 mana cheaper (with such a low curve this is essential), I am not entirely sure which one is better in general though. The protection is huge in a red infested metagame, even pro-blue is often usefull (against for instance fish). The extra 1 mana cost and not being able to shoot down x/2+y critters is a big downside though, the draw a card ability makes up for this somewhat. As I said I am still not sure which one is better. Jitte is probably the way to go in this deck though. (another advantage of swords is that it isn't legendary)

I have to disagree with some of your points.

I also think Jitte is plain better in this deck due to a lower Casting cost, and the fact that it powers out your creatures alot.
If you think of it, in a Red infested metagame you simply wouldn't play this deck due to Negators, and really, I haven't faced a deck that used red/burn in like a zillion years
And really, I don;t think prot. blue is that usefull since the only blue creatures Fish runs are like, Ninja's, and you can shoot them down with a Jitte..
The deck plays really well in testing, although I'll probably won't bring it to a tourney.. Losing to Random oath sucks..

Greetz,

Hugo

[Luiggi]

The protection from Blue given by Sword of Fire and Ice could be relevant because of the bounce effects like Echoing Truth and Chain of Vapor that many decks are using these days. If you happen to get a quick beater with Sword and some decent disruption a deck like Gifts could potentially find itself in a bind, with no answer to your equipped guy (though I guess they could just bounce the equipment, ). I do think that Jitte has shown itself to be pretty damn good, though.

While decks like WTF don't run that many Blue creatures, U/W Vial-Fish runs Meddling Mage, sometimes Kira, Rootwater Thief, etc., and the Sword would obviously shine against those critters.

Just some thoughts.

Luiggi

[49 Cents]

The protection from Blue given by Sword of Fire and Ice could be relevant because of the bounce effects like Echoing Truth and Chain of Vapor that many decks are using these days. If you happen to get a quick beater with Sword and some decent disruption a deck like Gifts could potentially find itself in a bind, with no answer to your equipped guy (though I guess they could just bounce the equipment, ). I do think that Jitte has shown itself to be pretty damn good, though.

I think Tinker itself is the best anwser to this deck.. 'Beat for 5? Sure, catch my inf fat0rz 11/11'

[Mantis]

I already tried such a deck with little succes due to a lack of testing and working on my own. This deck however seems very promising, perhaps you could include Priest of Gix.

This is a rather akward pick, I know. The advantages of this card make it considerable though, let me sum up a few:

It acts as a nice mana source under Aether Vial.
It allows you to cast the Necropotence, Wretch and even SOFAI more easily, this might even allow you to cut a Swamp (not sure though).
It's a free 2/1.
It works nicely with Cabal Therapy, since it doesnt deny you any mana.

Perhaps we could give this card a shot, perhaps it just sucks, only testing will tell..

[Luiggi]

Just a quick note: the errata on Priest of Gix says that it will only give you mana if you "played it from your hand", as in paid the casting cost for it. Aether Vial puts it into play, so it wouldn't give you any mana by doing that.

Luiggi

[Mantis]

okay, that makes it a lot worse ;\
In that case cards like Negator would obviously a better pick.. sorry for wasting your time

[Freelancer]

@Hugo I would agree that SoFI is worse in this deck than jitte, I was more responding to his one liner that basically said nothing and was incorrect. I expected more from him. He said that jitte is always better, which I believe to be completely wrong. In a deck like ninja sword SoFI is much stronger than jitte because it serves a different purpose. I also explained why I thought SoFI can be better in the right deck and/or metagame so I won't be repeating that.
I stick to my point that SoFI is stronger than jitte in the right deck and metagame. His assertion that jitte is always better is just blatenly wrong.

I think Tinker itself is the best anwser to this deck.. 'Beat for 5? Sure, catch my inf fat0rz 11/11'

This is exactly the biggest problem I have with this deck, a tinker is game over.  Sure you can try and let them discard it, but they have brainstorms to hide it with ease. Or they can topdeck to win, or they can mystical(/vamp) tutor for it or they counter your discard. Basically if they find the tinker your doomhed (the decks that run tinker can usually protect it quite well for a single turn or find and cast it the same turn).

[absolute]

@Hugo I would agree that SoFI is worse in this deck than jitte, I was more responding to his one liner that basically said nothing and was incorrect. I expected more from him. He said that jitte is always better, which I believe to be completely wrong. In a deck like ninja sword SoFI is much stronger than jitte because it serves a different purpose. I also explained why I thought SoFI can be better in the right deck and/or metagame so I won't be repeating that.
I stick to my point that SoFI is stronger than jitte in the right deck and metagame. His assertion that jitte is always better is just blatenly wrong.

I think Tinker itself is the best anwser to this deck.. 'Beat for 5? Sure, catch my inf fat0rz 11/11'

This is exactly the biggest problem I have with this deck, a tinker is game over.  Sure you can try and let them discard it, but they have brainstorms to hide it with ease. Or they can topdeck to win, or they can mystical(/vamp) tutor for it or they counter your discard. Basically if they find the tinker your doomhed (the decks that run tinker can usually protect it quite well for a single turn or find and cast it the same turn).

Perhaps adding some scrubs would gain this deck some more merit. Testing finds that the deck works well against combo/control decks, but to race aggro-control/aggro maybe the deck would benefit from StP/Seal/Serenity/Balance. Blacks inherent weakness in destroying artifacts and enchantments hasn't been a huge issue, although adding in the ability to deal with such spells would probably be a step forward. Mono colored, the deck was fun in testing, but in reality the wretch/chains/duress/fiend have been the cards the deck is forming around, and splashing another color allows the deck to deal with the decks it has difficult matchups against.

As for the Priest, it would be a giant step back for the reasons already presented, and also due to the fact the priest is a weak body for the cost you are paying into it. I haven't found the necropotence to be entirely useful, and negator is often already the target of random 'hate', and if the deck becomes established, it seems he needs to be replaced by something that can't be easily abused by opponents.

[Sundberg]

Maby hand of cruelty would fit in the sb for a better matchup against ww?

[Disburden]

I REALLY don't think that white weenie deserves a sideboard slot in this deck. We need slots to take out the tier 1, not decks that haven't been played in competitive type one since 1997. I know there are some people that might play WW out there somewhere, but to cut out slots against: STAX, FISH, DRAIN COMBO, COMBO, etc would be a huge mistake.

[Gort32]

Jittie is about one bajillion times better than SOFAI

Do you mind explaining this one liner? It is of no use to anyone.

Personally I would say jitte is better in this deck because its 1 mana cheaper (with such a low curve this is essential), I am not entirely sure which one is better in general though. The protection is huge in a red infested metagame, even pro-blue is often usefull (against for instance fish). The extra 1 mana cost and not being able to shoot down x/2+y critters is a big downside though, the draw a card ability makes up for this somewhat. As I said I am still not sure which one is better. Jitte is probably the way to go in this deck though. (another advantage of swords is that it isn't legendary)

SOFAI can't shoot down a Plat.  Enough said.

[Sundberg]

@ Disburden: you´re probably right, there's no room for hand of cruelty :/

I think that  4 Nezumi Graverobber and 4 Withered Wretch is overkill. Wretch alone make the job. I would play with plauge spitter since it is a huge weeniekiller card : welders, javeliners(not a big threat but anyway), rootwallas, lavamancers etc. And since u play 4 cabal u can get rid of all 2/2 very easy. Negator goes to sb!

If u like the robber+wretch synergy i would cut the negators,1 jitte and 1 fiend for 4 spitters - they ARE insane. Skittering skirge is a great card 2.
       

[49 Cents]

And since u play 4 cabal u can get rid of all 2/2 very easy. Negator goes to sb!

Negator is one of black's most insane Creatures, you just want 4 maindeck. And in a matchup that has Welders I think you'd really want 4 Negators because they set a much faster clock..

[Sundberg]

@ 49cents: i agree, negator is the big beater in black, but it is so fragile - one touch and all your permanents are gone. Very many people play fish and variants of fish, and even sligh is played, and rg beatz....the list goes on. Dd(direct damage) is pretty common in these decks and u dont want to drop a negator when your opponent sits on lightning bolt or whatever. I really think it's better to put negator into sb. Testing will answer this and it all depends on metagame but i'm happier with putting a spitter into play that removes small creatures with super-abilities than putting a fragile big beater into play, i would rather put him into play game 2 - when i know he is needed.

//Tommy

[g0tenks00]

@ 49cents: i agree, negator is the big beater in black, but it is so fragile - one touch and all your permanents are gone. Very many people play fish and variants of fish, and even sligh is played, and rg beatz....the list goes on. Dd(direct damage) is pretty common in these decks and u dont want to drop a negator when your opponent sits on lightning bolt or whatever. I really think it's better to put negator into sb. Testing will answer this and it all depends on metagame but i'm happier with putting a spitter into play that removes small creatures with super-abilities than putting a fragile big beater into play, i would rather put him into play game 2 - when i know he is needed.

//Tommy

The benefits of a negator equipped with a jitte swinging for a lot far outweighs the fragility of negator as compared with plague spitter or other suboptimal maindeck creatures. The advantage of black fish lies partly in the acceleration provided by dark ritual that conventional fish builds have no access to, and especially the power level of creatures like negator that can end the game faster, especially when used in conjunction with jitte. The agressive nature of maindeck negators has greater advantages than maindeck plague spitters - consistent pestilence yet slow. In a deck such as this the fragility of negator is not sufficient enough to warrant its relegation to the sideboard.

[49 Cents]

@ 49cents: i agree, negator is the big beater in black, but it is so fragile - one touch and all your permanents are gone. Very many people play fish and variants of fish, and even sligh is played, and rg beatz....the list goes on. Dd(direct damage) is pretty common in these decks and u dont want to drop a negator when your opponent sits on lightning bolt or whatever. I really think it's better to put negator into sb. Testing will answer this and it all depends on metagame but i'm happier with putting a spitter into play that removes small creatures with super-abilities than putting a fragile big beater into play, i would rather put him into play game 2 - when i know he is needed.

//Tommy

I'd like to say that I haven't seen a Burn/RG Beatz deck in like 7 tourneys.. And Fish also doesn't play red anymore, so they won't like burn your Negator..
And with Jitte you can shoot down his creatures and THEN attack, so you're sure they won't block.

[Sundberg]

Ok, i see what u mean. But i think 2 negators seems a little bit random....why not 3 (or even 4) ? With the cc of negator+jitte with equip cost - your opponent will have some random creatures to block your negator wich means your permanents are all gone, or , he has gone broken with a combodeck. Negator+jitte=slow (i don't mean spitter is faster).

[Disburden]

And since u play 4 cabal u can get rid of all 2/2 very easy. Negator goes to sb!

Negator is one of black's most insane Creatures, you just want 4 maindeck. And in a matchup that has Welders I think you'd really want 4 Negators because they set a much faster clock..

We've already realized four pages ago in this thread that four Negators is a mandatory inclusion to the deck. Dropping out a ritual turn one for a negator is nothing else but quick pressure on your opponent. Swinging for 5 on turn two is just awesome with it. This creature is what gives the deck the clock it needs to make it stand out over other fish lists, if it didn't have Negators, well, there wouldn't be any point to building a mono black fish deck. He is the MVP and you always want to see one in your hand, especially early (pre-vial) with ritual in hand.

  One more thing. I'm very happy this thread has lasted so long. Good job guys! When I first posted on page one to help out the deck list I didn't imagine that it would keep going. I just can't wait for a tournament report with the list!   

[neenjafus]

I have read a couple posts regarding using the ninjitsu ability to "attack twice" with a creature such as negator. In reading the oracle for ninjitsu, this makes no sense to me.

Can someone explain?

Thanks!

[Disburden]

You attack with negator and then if he isn't blocked, use the ninja's ability to attack with him again (comes back to your hand and then is put into play attacking again).

[Jacob Orlove]

You attack with negator and then if he isn't blocked, use the ninja's ability to attack with him again (comes back to your hand and then is put into play attacking again).

I don't know what you're trying to say here, but that's not at all how ninjutsu works. You return the negator to your hand, and put the ninja into play, tapped and attacking. Since combat damage only happens once, you can have one of the two creatures deal damage, but not both, and Negator certainly can't deal damage twice, even if you vial it back out or something.

[shade88]

Wouldn't it just be attack with the negator, damage on the stack, ninjuitsu the ninja, take 5 damage and i draw a card? Or am i missing something?

[Sundberg]

isnt it attack with negator, ninjitsu out a ninja which deals dmg, negator then doesnt, right? I really think that it is the ninja who deals dmg when u use ninjitsu.

[Jacob Orlove]

Wouldn't it just be attack with the negator, damage on the stack, ninjuitsu the ninja, take 5 damage and i draw a card? Or am i missing something?

You only draw a card if the ninja deals the damage. You can either use ninjutsu before or after combat damage is on the stack--if it's before, the ninja deals damage and Negator doesn't. If it's after, then it's the other way around.