How competative can Monoblue Control be nowdays?

[DeMarki]

I'm a casual Vintage Player since 1998 and some times I play in some local Vintage tournaments since I live in Greece. My favorite deck is my Monoblue Control deck and I have won a few local tournaments, even without owning any Power9 cards!
Would my deck have any chances in a competetive level? Any suggestions on how to improve it? I would be really gratefull if you could help me out!

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection
2 Disrupt
4 Impulse
2 Capsize
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor

4 Ophidian
2 Morphling

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Powder Keg
1 Sol Ring

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
17 Island

Now my simple questions would be:

1) Are 2 Morphling enough as a descent winning condition or should I add a third one? I mean, if they both get killed or discarded do I loose the game?
2) Could there be a problem, since I have 4 spells with casting cost of 1 and I'm running 3 chalices?
3) Should I add a forth Chalice, Powder Keg or 1 Masticore MD(just in case)?
4) Should I keep my 2 Capsizes? Actually I find them very usefull in many occasions but I'm not sure if people are using them anymore in Vintage.
5) Now that I use 4 Impulses instead of Brainstorms is it still necessary to run 4 fetchlands, instead of just Islands, or it isn't so important?
6) If anyone has a good idea about adding a usefull card, or removing some crap I would be glad if he could share it with me! Razz

[Revvik]

I can offer a few helpful suggestions, I suppose.

 - Two Morphlings is plenty.  If both of them are discarded, countered, or destroyed (which is extremely rare), then Ophidians will suffice for an extremely looong beatdown.
 - Chalice of the Void: I would maindeck four of these puppies (actually, I did over the winter).
 - Fetchlands are still incredibly important, consider starting with four and increasing the number until it feels appropriate (I found five did the job to ensure that I was never flooded).
For reference, your old Manabase:
1 LoA
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
17 Island
And a newer one:
LoA
Strip
4 Waste
3 Delta
2 Strand
12 Island
 - Capsize can go, as can Disrupt: maybe change the slots to Back to Basics and a single maindeck copy of Echoing Truth or Rushing River?

I don't know if you have any intentions to acquire the power cards or not.  If so, then even more changes could be made:
-4 Impulse, +4 Thirst for Knowledge
With Moxen and Drains, Thirst for Knowledge can restock your hand easily (ditching extra Moxen, Chalices, or Kegs).

If you do decide to run Moxen, then your manabase can be altered even further.  Instead of just posting changes, I'll show you what I was running.  Disregard it if you don't plan to get the $$ cards.

4 Force
4 Drain
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Powder Keg

4 Ophidian
4 Thirst for Knowledge
Fact or Fiction

2 Morphling
2 Back to Basics

Ancestral Recall
Time Walk

5 Moxen
Sol Ring
Black Lotus
Lotus Petal
Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
5 Fetchland
7 Island

Your list is similar, but part of what makes MonoBlue so strong is the ability to have double counter-spell on the first turn play (using relevant spells), or in the list I posted, an early Chalice of the Void for one / zero.

Other than that, the best advice I can give you is to take the list you have now to a serious tournament, play the hell out of it, and decide what your weak points are and what you can do to fix that.  Maybe some results against your field?

[Redmage2k]

There's no reason not to run brainstorm. Cheap, effective, and they work wonders with Fetchs.
While Impulse is better when you're looking for a specific card, Brainstorm is better at improving the general quality of your hand since you have the option of keeping all three cards you drew and putting chaf back to be reshuffled with a Fetch.

[JuJu]

I usually wouldn't bother posting this but seeing as a new person from Greece to the TMD community is appreciated, I'll set things right.

Impulse was played over brainstorm because you could dig further, and you could do it first turn with all the moxen you had. Chalice is almost always set at 1 and 0. More often 1 because your deck doesn't run any 1cc spells. Brainstorm is a dead card and strictly inferior to Impulse.

[Greenebean]

I have always been a big fan of any deck that has a control feel to it. As to Mono Blue control in todays vintage scene, I am not sure how effective it can really be. Granted Morphling is still okay, there once was a time when Morphling was one of the best creatures in type one. But unfortunaty, most of the best creatures are 1/1 Goblin Welders, 2/2 Meddling Mages, 6/6 Akroma, 11/11 DS Colossus. I feel morphling does not have the same kick as it used to have. But I do think it could have itself given a face lift and it may be able to be re-vamped into the vintage world again.

I like 4 Chalices in anything control. Set it to 1, a lot of fish, ect players crumble, set it to 0, and watch most combo players frown. Chalice is a bomb first turn when set at zero.

Fetches: the more the better for the most part. 17 Islands is too much. 12 Islands and 5 Fetches to widdle down your deck is a much better option.

Disrupt and Capsize I do not like either. In most of today's vinatge tournaments, proxies are being allowed, so proxing up 4 drains, Time Walk, Ancestral, Library is definetly something to consider if proxies are allowed.

So pretty much this post it just agreeing with everything that Revvik has said.

[Smmenen]

I don't see how mono blue could possibly be viable in an environment rich with Goblin Welders, Aether Vials, and Oath of Druids. 

[Greenebean]

I am not saying that it can be competitive, but just agreeing with Rivvik that those changes make it more competitive than the list he had. I just generally like the feel of control decks, except mono blue control. My words of advice would make something semi-control, possibly something along the lines of SSB, Chalice Oath, maybe even something like W/B Fish. But who knows, only time will tell until someone drops the next bomb on the vintage world.

I also have a new idea for team dead deck....you guys should bring back Stasis, not really but it would be sort of interesting to think about.

[Smmenen]

Beleive me I've tried.  Stasis has a fundamental flaw in that you always have mana inferiority - even with Snap, Thwart and the land that keeps Stasis in play forever. 

[DeMarki]

First of all I want you guys to know that I live in Greece and Proxie Tournaments don't exist here!
It's a pity, I know but even if they existed it wouldn't make any difference to me cause I really enjoy playing with the cards I own and with my decks and not with some paper proxies. 

Now about improving my deck, how about adding 2 Back to Basics? Do you think they would help me out a bit since I'm playing Manoblue? BUT thatway I had to sacrifice my Library which would be completelly useless such as my wastelands if I need to tap them for Mana!

Now about the 4 Chalice, perhaps 3 were sufficient since I would play just 2 of them maximum. The first for 0 and the second for 1, so what am I supposed to do with the other 2? Wouldn't that be a waste of 2 cards???

[Ivantheterrible]

Now about the 4 Chalice, perhaps 3 were sufficient since I would play just 2 of them maximum. The first for 0 and the second for 1, so what am I supposed to do with the other 2? Wouldn't that be a waste of 2 cards???

There is a decent chance that you will only need 1 or 2 in a game but the point it that you draw them on the first turn as much as possible and you need 4 for that. Also B2b probably would be a good idea because when Mono Blue is viable B2b's genearlly a good call so it will help you figure out the viability of the deck in you meta.

Also it might help to list the greek meta so we can know or not weather Mono Blue is viable there because it isn't viable over here but I think wer'e just runing of that info.

[rvs]

You can still play it competatively enough, but Oath is a horrible matchup. I'm not sure about Vial. It's probably not easy, but doable as long as you win the Die roll.

1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Powder Keg
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Phyrexian Furnace
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
4 Ophidian
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
2 Back to Basics


Lands (18):
2 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
SB:
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Energy Flux
4 Oath of Druids
1 Tropical Island

[Whatever Works]

The only reason to consider mono blue at the moment is because the strength of back to basics in the current metagame. However, as strong as the card is that isnt going to help much if your opponent goes vial go, or even mox/land ---> Oath... with FoW backup... then again almost every deck loses to that, but mono blue doesnt have an answer to permanent threats which there are more of now then any time in the last year.

[warble]

In a deck with 12 counters, instead of 2 morphlings a prefferable creature base is 1 morphling, 1 platinum angel.  Tinker brings plat out and it's not a hard 7-cast considering you are waste-proof.  Protecting Plat. and not worrying about your life points beats a 2-turn clock that often comes one turn too late.  This differs from blue/red/black with gifts mainly because you can't walkx2 to speed your clock.  In fact, I prefer no walk at all, and would chalice 0 and 1 just to wait for platty to show her face.

EDIT: rvs, why is the tropical island in your SB not a forbidden orchard?

[DeMarki]

And how exactly would I win the game with Platinum Angel in play?

[racetraitor]

Well for starters you could try reading the card...

[DeMarki]

Ok I read the card and it says that your opponent can't loose the game while Platinum Angel is in play.
So I'm asking again, how am I supposed to win when my opponent can't loose the game due to that crap angel?

[warble]

ROFL

I hope you're some tournament player pulling a fast one...but in case you aren't...

It doesn't say that man, re-read the card.  With the You and the I in the eye of YOU.

[DeMarki]

Oops I'm sorry I didn't read this properly! It's not a bad creature after all... 

[Dralock]

Aparently, oath isn't viable in Europe. In fact, its a generally laughed at deck (so I have heard from multiple sources.) So mono-U can have a bit of a chance in this environment that has dragon, slaver and other slow decks as dominent.

To play mono blue, I would play a better win condition, like charbelcher. That way tinker with an angel or darksteel makes a lot more sense.

Four chalices kinda screw vial, so I don't see the problem really.

I like ninjas more than phlid. They come out the same turn and do more for you the entire game.

[Revvik]

Probably the only changes I would make to the list I posted would be to drop the Morphlings for a Tinker and a Colossus, maybe with a Plat in the board.

Although I wonder at the competitiveness of it as well, since I played against one yesterday with my 'Tog list.  Ophidian doesn't do so much against the Grinning Moat, and Duress, Red Blast...
I guess it depends on what you're gonna play.  Back to Basics is getting stronger and stronger.

Smmenen: Meandeck Stasis?  I have to imagine you're joking when you say you've tried to build one to compete with the field.

[Smmenen]

No joke.  let me see if I can find the list:

Here is what I said on my team boards :

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:27 am    Post subject: Stasis     Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster

So I actually spent a few hours thinking about stasis today. Probably a waste of time, but it's worth reporting my findings.

The first thing I did was look through each set since Onslaught and read every blue and artifact and land that might be good in Stasis - trying to see if any new cards would break this deck open.

Unfortunately, I think the concept is fundamentally flawed in a way that I'll discuss in a moment.

Here is the last list I had:

12 Island
4 Forgotten City
5 Fetchland
4 Moxen
1 Lotus

4 Stasis
4 FOW
4 Misdirection
4 Daze
4 Thwart
1 Gush
4 Ensnare
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Chain of Vapor

What is this deck capable of? Playing a turn two stasis and indefinately paying for it - not even needing the City either.

The problem is that Stasis is a fundamentally flawed idea. If your opponent just sits there and plays land, then can win the counterwar over Chain of Vapor and beat you. Also, there is no way to tap them down. Therefore, they can control when they want to try something. You can't control the timing.

I think the better way to go with Stasis might be more like mono blue and then surprsie them with early-mid game stasis.

But I'm not sure. I was trying to find good synergistic cards with Stasis - the new creatures that return lands to hand for effects are a start in the right direction, but probably not powerful enough. I didn't see any new artifacts that said: "play me with stasis" either.

Although if you could play Stasis and Eon Hub, fucked up shit would happen....

This deck could be viable for Waterbury for one simple reason: people will fuck up immediately and you will win games. If we coudl make it so that our win condition is so slow that we win matches that way, I could see us putting a few of us in the top 16... but only we really busted our balls to make this work.

One last thing: you can't go Mox, Land Stasis since you can't pay for it next turn. You have to play stasis on turn two - and I think the city is too risky since it will probably just get Wasted.

Almost immediately the post got laughed off the team boards...

No win condition was posted becuase I was trying to understand how Stasis worked with those cards first.

As for mono blue, I honestly wouldn't play mono blue with Chalices in this metagame.  And if you recall, I'm the one who thought of Chalices last summer in mono blue and I made top 8 at gencon with the deck.

I just think that Kegs are better.  If Fish is playing Chalice, sure it's nice to drop Chalice 1, but Keg isn't going to be stopped by the Vial Fish decks.  Keg away the Vial and then Back to Basics lock them.  But I honestly have no idea how to take mono blue at the moment.  It would take alot of work that I don't have the time for at the moment. 

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I don't know about powder keg anymore, I think EE is simply better. It's an answer to oath, you can react immediately, and it hits other stupid enchantments like Chains and ITEOC.

Also, why is Chalice bad all of a sudden? It's EXTREMELY strong againt all the other powered decks in the format. Dropping a chalice for 0 turn 1 means they can't do stupid shit until turn 2-3. I understand that you're on the draw half the time, but even then, chalice 1 is pretty strong.

If everybody is so afraid of oath with monoU, why not just maindeck a couple of annuls? They are AMAZING against stax, and they happen to counter oaths and vials. Between annuls and EEs, Oath shouldn't be THAT horrible of a matchup.

Fish might be a bad matchup, but post-Saviours, I think the matchup will be even, maybe even favorable. Pithing needle absolutely WRECKS fish, as you can name vial, strip, Mishra's Factory, or the ever annoying Bouncer.

-Bob

[o]

Could Damping Matrix be at all useful?  It seems nice in that it lets you keep your moxen but shuts down soooooo many opposing cards... just to name a few:

Goblin Welder, Mindslaver, Vial, Mongrel, Rootwalla, Jitte, Triskelion, Gorilla Shaman, etc...

Also, by running more artifacts (SoloMoxLotus, Chalice, EE, Matrix), it may be possible to run Thirst for Knowledge as a draw engine.  At least a possibility.

EDIT:

Not to mention that additional artifacts only further support the tinker->colossus win.

[Revvik]

Smmenen: you just made my day.
Have you considered running Mono-U with both Keg and Chalice?  Moreso Chalice than Keg.  As I posted above, this results in a heavier artifact base, which means you can run the ever-popular Thirst for Knowledge.
The downsides are a reduction in Back to Basics count (I had to move two to the sideboard) and the fact that Thirst is often gunned for as a "must-counter" spell.  I often treated it as a back-up to my Ophidians.

Regarding Engineered Explosives in a mono-colored deck: No.  I understand how good it is, but I prefer to not rely on Moxen, which may or may not always get cast with Chalice of the Void being popularized (I'm starting to intensely dislike that card...)

[DeMarki]

How can the Tinker-Platinum Angel be a reliable solution, since I run so few artifacts? (4 Chalice, 3 Keg, 1 Sol Ring). Would Memory Jar be a worthy addition?

[Revvik]

nah.  not one-sided enough.  If you really want to run Tinker, maybe you can squeeze in a Mox Diamond and a couple other second-ratel pieces of acceleration.

[Bouli]

Shackles

[DeMarki]

How about this? Would this deck be good enough now for running Tinker-Platinum Angel or should I leave both 2 Morphling?
Remember that I'm a casual player so I don't care much about the metagame, there aren't many Vintage tournaments in Greece anyway, so I play mostly for fun with my friends. 

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection
2 Disrupt
4 Impulse
1 Capsize
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker

4 Ophidian
1 Morphling
1 Platinum Angel

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Powder Keg
1 Sol Ring

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
12 Island

[Revvik]

I would cut the disrupts for an additional Misdirection and another card, and I'd lose a couple Islands for Lotus Petal and Mox Diamond.  This'll give you more first turn plays / counter abilities 

[DeMarki]

Yes but that's the reason I run 4 Chalices, in order to cast in on the first turn. Mox Diamond & Chrome Mox suck anyway I always think that playing them give me card disantvantage.