The return of Goth Slaver?

[Luiggi]

In the past few months less and less people have been playing Control Slaver due to the explosion onto the scene of the various Gifts Belcher decks (SSB, Gifted.fr, etc.). Yet this past weekend at StarCity P9 Rochester Control Slaver was the third most popular deck, after Worse Than Fish and U/W Fish, with eventual champion Ugo Rivard being one of the 14 people who piloted CS that day (myself being another of those people).

For reference, here is Ugo's build:

4 Goblin Welder

1 Mindslaver
1 Platinum Angel
1 Triskelion
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Crucible Of Worlds

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island

SB:
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rack and Ruin

While I disagree with some of the choices in his deck, he has a lot of versatility, and it obviously paid off. What was it that allowed CS to pilot through a field of Meddling Mages, Chalices and StPs to claim the top spot? For one I think it's much less mana intensive than Gifts Ungiven variants (Ugo's deck runs one, but isn't really a Gifts deck like SSB or Gifted.fr is), and while it hates seeing a Chalice for 0, it's less annoying than against those other decks. I also think his SB was very well-prepared for the Rochester metagame.

Putting Ugo's build aside, I'd like to talk about what I ran. Rather than running Shay-style Control Slaver like Ugo (albeit modified), I chose to go with Goth Slaver. As Ultima pointed out in another topic, the use of Accumulated Knowledge is at a real low right now. Since Goth Slaver has pretty much fallen off the Vintage map with the appearance of Gifts-Belcher decks, the only other deck that really runs AKs is Meandeck Oath, and not even that many people are running it, since Chalice Oath is also an appealing option, and it runs TFK instead. Here is the build I ran at Rochester:

3 Goblin Welder
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mindslaver
1 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Thirst For Knowledge
3 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
1 Darksteel Citadel
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island

SB:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Seasinger
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rack and Ruin

My record was less than stellar, going 3-2-3. Yes, that's right, 3 draws... Two of them could've/should've been wins, since on the last extra turn my opponent finished somewhere between 1-4 life, and my Platinum Angel was on offense. I switched to the deck at the last minute after not playing it for a few months, so I probably could've played a bit faster, but whatever, you know what they say about hindsight, . I'd make a few changes to my this build if I decided to run it again, but I'll get to those later.

In case anyone cares to know, my rounds went as follows:

R1: 0-2 vs. 3-Color Control (he wrecked me with Balance and then YWill+Balance, and 1st turn LoA both games)
R2: 1-1 vs. Control-MaskNaught (he finished at 2 life on the last extra turn, with Platz on offense)
R3: 2-0 vs. 3-Color Control (too much draw for him to handle)
R4: 1-1 vs. Gifted.fr (I finished with an active Welder and goodies in the graveyard, so with a few extra turns I probably could've pulled it off)
R5: 2-1 vs. U/W Angel-Standstill (really weird round, since my opponent made two big mistakes and got two game losses because of it)
R6: 2-1 vs. Transmute Artifact.dec (really interesting build; looked like so much fun to play!)
R7: 1-1 vs. BomberMan (again, on the last extra turn my opponent ends at 1 life, with me swinging with Platz)
R8: 1-2 vs. Stax (first turn insanity with Metalworkers, Defense Grids, Chalices, etc.)

Regardless of my record, which doesn't make such a compelling case to run Goth Slaver, I was resolving all kinds of Intuitions, AKs for 3 and AKs for 4 all day long, and they were just outstanding. Intuition is just such a bomb in this deck, whether it's finding 3 AKs if we need to draw more cards, loading up the graveyard with saucy artifacts (going for Crucible + Strip + Slaver/Trike/Platz was golden for me all day long) or finding an emergency Welder. I even had 2 Deep Anals in the deck in case I did face an AK-mirror, which didn't happen (in retrospect they should've been a Demonic Tutor and Welder #4). I did expect Meandeck Oath to show up in force, based on Smmenen's endorsement of it on StarCity as a good choice for SCP9 Richmond, and that runs Intuitions and AKs, but I guess I just didn't get paired against them (I checked on StarCity just now and 13 people played various Oath builds, so my guess was correct).

Based on what I saw at Rochester and the results, I think that the metagame is looking ripe for Goth Slaver to make a comeback. Whether or not it makes sense to run it over something like SSB or Gifted.fr I'm not exactly sure, but I just know that personally I love Welding in artifacts and winning that way, rather than comboing out. As many people have pointed out: Mindslaving an opponent once will many times be enough to end the game, or at least give you the time necessary to finish him off. I think that with the lack of AKs in the format our powerful draw engine can be unleashed without worrying too much about the mirror, and that Intuition just makes the deck even more nuts.

The changes I'd make to the deck if I were to run it again are:

-2 Deep Analysis

+1 Goblin Welder
+1 Demonic Tutor

I'd also love to put in a Pentavus, to have a 4-turn clock instead of a 5-turn clock (Platz, you know I love you, but you can be a bit slow). I'm debating whether or not to pull the Trike, since I didn't get paired against a single deck in Rochester where I really wanted him, but then again you can argue that that was because I was never at the top of the standings where the Fish decks were, ! If not the Trike I'm not sure what I should pull... Another Underground Sea might be a good idea, since I've now got the DT in there, but then again I do have Crucible of Worlds.

My SB was total ass for me, but that's probably because I didn't face any Fish decks. I definitely think 1 Tormod's Crypt and 1 Seasinger can come out, letting me add something like 2 Echoing Truth. Pyroclasm also seems really hot vs. Fish, so I'd make room for them (maybe cutting the Seasinger's altogether, since they come online a bit late).

I'd like to hear what other people have to say about Goth Slaver in the current environment, to see if I'm just crazy or if there's something to what I saw at Rochester. Anyway, I hope this sparks some conversation.

Luiggi

[God_Campbell]

Well luggi i do like your list, but I am really a big fan of shay's build.
There is of course nothing wrong with goth slaver type decks I just Feel those slots are better spent on better things.
About Rivards list, it was strange but in a good way, it showed that there is still new little gems we can add to make the md/sb stronger as right now the reason slaver is on the d/l is A: of course all those gifts decks but they are more still intensive so just the better pros will play it and actually have success with it.
B: well fish decks are rampant right now and i know personslly they are the bane of slaver, and null rod in particular is annoying.
so I am anxious to see shay's build that he played to see what he did to combat the fish metagame.

[thokash]

I'd also love to put in a Pentavus

Pentavus is nice since it can also cause the infinite slaver lock, as well as deal with threats on the table and provide beats to boot.  I guess what I want to ask is, what creature set is actually optimal?  I noticed both you and Ugo run Platz/Trike, but is there a spot for Pentavus or even Sundering Titan along side/in place of them?

Although i'd love to play Gift's, I think Intuition pretty much is the better choice when running AK.  Sure you lose out on one card, but as you said, nobody wants to be Cruci-locked and that can be done with an active Welder and Intuition.

What do you think of Ugo's Vampiric Tutor?  Is there a space for it in the deck?

With the addition of Demonic Tutor, do you need another black source (Sea)?

That's all for now!

EDIT:  Also, is there space for FoF and/or Mystical Tutor?

[Vood]

The thing you need to understand, is that Slaver is really all about Yawgmoth Will.Now when I look back at comments on this forum, I remember Steve M. talking about this, and he was damn right about it. Welders, Mindslaver and all other cards are only there to support the base strategy, to resolve a Yawgmoth Will. By playing with mystical, vampiric and demonic tutors, you basically end up with 4 Wills in your deck.

I played the same deck as Ugo (teammate) but without the mystical and vampiric and went 6-2 with it. I was not really caring about resolving yawgmoth will, concentring my effort on control. I was also missing the echoing truth, going for a Shaman instead. The echoing truth would have been better since Chalice is often set to 1 against slaver. Some people may debate the Lightning greaves, but they are often very useful, some deck having no answers to a booted angel.

[Hi-Val]

If you play Goth Slaver as a Will combo deck, you don't need Pentavus-- just make sure that you have enough artifacts in the yard to Will back when you go off to make sure that there are enough slave turns for Plat to get through.

I am playing vanilla Control Slaver right now as opposed to Goth Slaver because I feel like you need a few more options right now. CS can afford to spend a few slots addressing Chalice and other problems. Goth Slaver seems a bit clunky right now too, but that's just me. Also, it has big, big problems with REB. Altogether though, it's still a fine deck.

[jazzykat]

The thing you need to understand, is that Slaver is really all about Yawgmoth Will.Now when I look back at comments on this forum, I remember Steve M. talking about this, and he was damn right about it. Welders, Mindslaver and all other cards are only there to support the base strategy, to resolve a Yawgmoth Will. By playing with mystical, vampiric and demonic tutors, you basically end up with 4 Wills in your deck.

I must respectfully disagree with you. Yawgmoth's Will does equal a win about 95% of the time however you can easily win without Will by understanding your role in the match and execuing your gameplan effectively. You probably did that yourself:

I was not really caring about resolving yawgmoth will, concentring my effort on control.

Taking all of someones turns or just beating their face in with fat wins you plenty of games.

I was also missing the echoing truth, going for a Shaman instead. The echoing truth would have been better since Chalice is often set to 1 against slaver.

So you played a 1CC option to deal with a chalice set on 1? How did that work out for you?

B: well fish decks are rampant right now and i know personslly they are the bane of slaver, and null rod in particular is annoying.
so I am anxious to see shay's build that he played to see what he did to combat the fish metagame.

Many fish lists I see do not run null rod, however I am sure there are still some.

If you encounter null rod fish, then trying the tinker DS combo is almost always good idea, sundering titan is also a fantastic fatty that is weldable and Platinum angel is a no brainer.  Pentavus and Trike are better if you do not see rods. Fish usually dies to big stupid creatures.

[Luiggi]

A few things...

@God_Campbell: while Null Rod is still used, I think Chalice is becoming more and more popular. It's the card of choice in WTF, and I think that that's been seeing more play, despite the two U/W Fishes in the Rochester Top-8.

@thokash: both Ugo's build and mine hace Crucible of Worlds along with an artifact land (he went with Seat of the Synod, since it's another Blue source; I went with Citadel, since your opponent can't destroy it in response to your Welder activation), and those allow for easy infinite Slaving. For truly infinite Slaving with Pentavus you need two Welders (not that actually going infinite is EVER necessary, since one Pantybus should give you enough activations to win). The main reason I want Pentavus is beacuse he's a 4-turn clock, as opposed to Platz, that takes 5.

I personally don't like Ugo's Vampiric Tutor, since it unnecessarily adds another Black spell to the deck, but it obviously worked for him. I think Demonic Tutor is usually enough, and if anything then Mystical Tutor, just for casting cost issues. But with the Intuitions I run having more Tutors is generally unnecessary.

As for Fact or Fiction and Echoing Truth, I don't think there's room in Goth Slaver, because of the large # of slots the draw-engine occupies, but definitely in regular Control Slaver, where you have room to play around.

@Hi-Val: can you post a decklist for your vanilla CS, for comparison purposes? Have you been having success with it?

Luiggi

[Smmenen]

Ok, there would be my basic analysis:

1) Goth Slaver was a really focused Yawgmoth's Will deck.  The idea was to just draw, draw, combo using the Slaver combo.  The purpose of Intuition/AK was to speed up the point at which Yawgmoth's Will was used while giving you plenty of good cards to abuse with it (since you've seen so many cards.

2) Given that point, I think that Gifts does the same thing, but does it better.  Gifts gives you Yawgmoth's Will NOW and you can run INtuition/AK in the Gifts deck and have a much smoother combo finish than having to run Welders and often unweildy expensive artifacst.

3) The alternative is to focus on what Slaver does best: Slaving without focusing as much on Yawgmoth's Will.   That means a renewed focus on the Thirst/Welder combo.

In other words - with the advent of Gifts, the only reason I see to play Slaver is if you are focused on really maximizing the synergy between Thirst and Welder.  That means I would want to play cards like Sundering Titan, at least two Slavers, and probably Pentavus.  And definately 4 Thirsts and 4 Welders.  I don't think that Intuition/AK actually helps that focus.

So yes, I am now saying that Intuition/AK, in my opinion, is inferior in Slaver.  That means I have changed my mind on this issue.  But the reason is simple: The existence of Gifts means that Slaver has to focus on its competitive advantage: which is the fact that it can slave you on turn three with Welder on turn one and Thirsts on turn two. 

If you want to try and make the concept work, I think you simply cannot run Deep Analysis.  Deep Analysis has grown strikingly weak recently for reasons I'm still not fully grasping.  But I see no reason to try and play Goth Slaver over 3 Intuition/4 AK Gifts. 

[Luiggi]

Hmm, an interesting idea, and I must say it'd never crossed my mind to try an AK version of Gifts. Thanks for your feedback, Steve.

Luiggi

[Revvik]

If you want to try and make the concept work, I think you simply cannot run Deep Analysis.  Deep Analysis has grown strikingly weak recently for reasons I'm still not fully grasping. 

I've noticed this as well.
- It's a terrible topdeck card.
- You shouldn't care if it gets countered (flashback), but it still gives your opponent 4 Mana Drain mana, which in this day and age is more than enough to win the game.
- It's best in a group of three with another card (Intuition) making it part of a two-card combo.  And two-card combos that are sorcery speed and unwieldy in nature suck in streamlined control decks.

This is something I've noticed lately even in Psychatog decks - I have to be more careful using Deeps (often Brainstorming them away) than I am with AKs.

[Cr0v4x]

@ Revvik

I'm running a dran-slavery deck, too, and I'm not really convinced of deep analysis either. You already mentioned the disadvantages (casting cost, ...). The really "mighty" thing about deep analaysis is to play inuition on DA, DA, and a card you probably want to have in your graveyard. Therefore your opponent might give you the card you want to have in your graveyard to your hand after considering how much mana you control at that very moment. If hardcasting the artifact would work, you will most certainly get one analysis to your hand and that's just a wasted card because you're never really going to play it from your hand. Even the loss of 3 life seems to me as quite a lot. Furthermore i think that being able to play a full set of TfK's, a full set of Brainstorms and an Acestral Recall is enough Drawal, I believe.

[Luiggi]

I appreciate everyone chiming in on Deep Analysis and how it's not that good in the deck anymore, but I just want to point out that this is something I already mentioned in the opening post of this topic, where I listed the changes I'd make to the deck if I were to run it again, cutting 2 DAs and adding the missing Demonic Tutor and the 4th Welder. Just wanted to mention that so that we can move on to other things about the deck, and not keep beating the proverbial dead DA-horse, .

What I've been wondering lately is whether or not to cut the Crucible for Pentavus, as has been suggested in multiple other Slaver conversations, thus allowing me to turn the Strip Mine into a second Underground Sea, or whether I should leave in Cruci+Strip and just try to find room for the Pentavus anyway... The thing is this: I'm hesitant to cut the Crucible because it's just a lot more powerful in Goth Slaver than regular CS, due to the Intuitions. If I have an active Welder on turn 1, a turn 2 Intuition usually nabs Crucible + Strip Mine + Mindslaver/Platz/Pentavus/Trike (depending on what I'm up against), and at that stage getting Crucible + Strip Mine going can often seal the game up right there. In regular Control Slaver I have no doubts that Crucible doesn't belong, but I'm not so sure when it comes to Goth Slaver... I'm tempted to leave in the Crucible and Strip Mine and just find room for the Pentavus, too. Thoughts on this?

Luiggi

[Cr0v4x]

Well, ok 

I just copied the decklist from above and made the changes to it so that everyone has a better look at the list.

4 Goblin Welder
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mindslaver
1 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Thirst For Knowledge
3 Intuition

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
1 Darksteel Citadel
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island

SB:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Seasinger
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rack and Ruin

I hope this was the right list i Copied there. 

I don't really think that the Pentavus help the Deck that much. Certainly you can get an infinite Time Walk this way but i still prefer going off over CoW and citadel which is just more likely to achieve than having 2 welders in play. Nevertheless it's definitely an option but i'd prefer using simply another mighty artefact than trying to improve the slavery aspect which is IMHO pretty good already. This artefact might be a Sundering Titan just to bring a really fattie into the game.

[Sauron]

I like both Pentavus and Crucible in Goth Slaver.

Crucible often allows for more precipitous Slaver locks since a single Intuition is usually enough to set the lock up with an active Welder, in addition to its other uses. I like Seat as the Artifact land in that configuration, I generally haven't found Wastes to be a problem although it can take more effort to set up in the face of Wastes.

Sometimes though you just want a beatstick, or a way to stall aggro, and Pentavus shines there.
EDIT: Its probably worth pointing out that Platinum can't be relied upon to perform this role anymore with the proliferation of Jitte/Swords, sure you can run Greaves to help make sure of it, but I just don't like the Greaves at all. The main plus I see for Greaves is hasted Welder, but the deck already has a card that performs that function, its called Time Walk.

Playing both increases the permutations of draws that establish a lock, sometimes its Crucible and a single Intuition and sometimes you get two active Welders and then set out to get Pentavus and go that way.

[Luiggi]

Sauron hit the nail on the head with his point, and that's exactly my reasoning for adding the Pentavus, whose main purpose is beatdown. At the SCP9 in Rochester three of my rounds went to time and ended in draws, and in two of those rounds my opponents finished between 1 and 4 life, since my offense was a Platinum Angel. Had it been a Pentavus the game would've been over a turn earlier, since he's a faster clock. Platinum Angel is obviously great in the deck for other reasons, but I do see the need for a fatter fatty, and Pantybus fills that slot nicely, as well as stalling vs. Fish and other aggro decks. That you can also set up infinite Slaver with him and two Welders is just icing on the cake, .

So the question is: are Crucible of Worlds and Strip Mine worth their inclusion in the deck, or would it be better served running a second Underground Sea and something like Mystical Tutor, Fact or Fiction, a maindeck bounce spell, etc. in that slot? The fact is that while Cruci+Strip is nice, only rarely does it seal up the game right there, and it's been shown that you don't really need to infinitely Slave someone to win the game, and that generally once or twice will do, and Pentavus allows us to do that while still being on offense. I just think that unless something is cut to make room for more utility or a bounce spell we might have a hard time against some decks. Am I wrong?

Luiggi