Fake card: what would TMD do?

[orgcandman]

So, I was hanging out with a friend of mine earlier in the week. We were playing a little magic, and whilst doing so, the authenticity of one of his pieces came into question. Now, I was there when he purchased the piece off one of Andy Stok's old lackeys, so I know he didn't fake it, but upon close examination, it is quite definately a fake. A good fake, yes, but a fake none-the-less. He's a little more than pissed off that he spent a few hundred dollars on a fake. From the look on his face, it was a mixture of anger and violation. He doesn't quite know what to do, and I'm pretty sure that as well over a year has passed since the purchase of this item a refund / exchange is out of the question.

He was thinking about trading it away, as it's "tainted" in his mind. However, I questioned the ethics behind such an action, and he agreed that it didn't make any kind of logical sense to deal with the problem in that manner.

I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience and has advice to offer so that I can attempt to restore some peace of mind to my friend.

[Jacob Orlove]

His best bet is probably to sell it as a high quality fake on ebay. People will pay decent money for those things, and he won't be shadily ripping someone off the way that guy obviously did to him. Just make sure it's very, very clear that the card is not real, since not all bidders will read english perfectly.

[The Atog Lord]

Myself, first I'd make certain that it was a fake. Cards can pick up some strange damage over time, and I'd rather have an expert (dealer) confirm that it is fake before getting too upset. Then. I'd confront the Stoke Minion from whom he purchased the card.

But I would not, not, not try to sell the card as real. That just continues the problem.

[Anusien]

Find the guy who passed it off as real and beat the shit out of him so hard he never sells it, creating a time paradox that ends all existence.  Oops.

[Robert the Swordsman]

His best bet is probably to sell it as a high quality fake on ebay. People will pay decent money for those things, and he won't be shadily ripping someone off the way that guy obviously did to him. Just make sure it's very, very clear that the card is not real, since not all bidders will read english perfectly.

Even so, you have to take in to account that the people who are looking for a good fake probably intend on using it in a lousy way; either by trying to sell it as though it were real, or to perhaps try and play it in tournaments and claim that it's authentic.

I dunno' what I'd do, to be honest with you.

[Jacob Orlove]

His best bet is probably to sell it as a high quality fake on ebay. People will pay decent money for those things, and he won't be shadily ripping someone off the way that guy obviously did to him. Just make sure it's very, very clear that the card is not real, since not all bidders will read english perfectly.

Even so, you have to take in to account that the people who are looking for a good fake probably intend on using it in a lousy way; either by trying to sell it as though it were real, or to perhaps try and play it in tournaments and claim that it's authentic.

That's true. So much for that plan, then.

[everythingitouchdies]

This is terrible. I remember a year or so ago it seemed that there was alot of fake power out there, people trying to pawn it off as real and such... it seems that there is less of that going on now, or at least it seems that way to me, but I remember coming across some really good fakes and had it not been for my overwhelming paranoia this may well have happened to me.

I had one person I know and play cards with buy 4 fake time vaults... I know thats not power but it was still a hefty investment... but in this case he bought them from a dealer and I caught it as soon as I saw them. I dont think the dealer intended on ripping him off... they were pretty well done. We took the cards back and after a minimal amount of hassle and arguing I was able to get his money back and the dealer destroyed the fakes in front of us.

I would definitely be concerned about letting a fake float around, because it creates the opportunty for someone else to get burned. Its hard to say what the best course of action after so much time would be, but take the good advice of having a professional deal with it and make sure its really a fake before you do anything too rash.

[Bram]

Sell it to some unsuspecting bastard. Who cares?

If he figures out it's fake, be so kind as to give hime a refund. If not, there's no problem.

[The Atog Lord]

Sell it to some unsuspecting bastard. Who cares?

If he figures out it's fake, be so kind as to give hime a refund. If not, there's no problem.

I really hope (and believe) that this is a joke, Bram.

[Demonic Attorney]

PM me if you're still unsure about what you should do after the advice you've been given.

[Mixing Mike]

I'd find the dealer who sold it, have them pay you back full price, and then destroy the fake in front of you.  That seems to be the only way to do it.

If the card in question is a A/B mox that's beat to shit, send me a scan of it, I might know who it is.

[Joblin Velder]

Sell it to some unsuspecting bastard. Who cares?

If he figures out it's fake, be so kind as to give hime a refund. If not, there's no problem.

Respect levels have now hit an all-time low.

[Godder]

First, make absolutely certain that it's fake, and not just beat up or otherwise damaged.

If it is fake, then there are two options for the seller: replace it with a genuine card, or give your money back, although that requires that you can actually find the person who you bought it from. Too long after the fact doesn't apply yet, since there was a breach of the sale contract, but you do have to get on with it, since there will no doubt be a statute of limitations on civil disputes based on the date of discovery.

I'm assuming that the card was sold as a 'CARDNAME' (which implies that it's genuine), rather than as a piece of cardboard, as is, where is, but that seems a reasonable assumption.

If there's no way of finding the seller, then either he can destroy it, or he can use it as a good proxy, but I'd advise strongly against selling or trading it.

EDIT: It can (and possibly should) also be taken to the FBI, as it's criminal copyright infringement (by someone), not to mention fraud and/or counterfeiting. WotC may also be able to help in this line, as it's in their interests to do so.

[Bram]

I could have given a more socially acceptable reply like most of you, yes. Or maybe I'm just a bigger bastard. Truth is: I wasn't joking, really.

I'm not saying I'd feel good about doing it, but I'd feel worse about being the ass end of a three hundred dollar joke. Seriously, what if you hadn't told your friend it was fake? There wouldn't have been any problem if he sold it then, now would there? He bought it as real, and it's now tainted in his mind because of something you said (which may or may not be true). Ofcourse he wants to unload it. What's wrong with you people? Let the guy pass the buck.

Fake is a matter of perception anyway. If something is an objectively undetectable fake, it's real for all intents an puposes. If he sells it to someone on ebay, and the buyer figures out it's fake, he should give him a full refund. I'm not that big of a bastard. But if he doesn't, I really don't see the problem (or rather: I see it, but I don't much care).

[EDIT] All this is assuming there's absolutely nothing you can do on the buyer end of the spectrum. If your friend can manage to find the guy who sold it to him and somehow get a refund, that would absolutely be the preferable course of action. Experience, however, tells me that it is not the most likely course of action, though.

[The Atog Lord]

Fake is a matter of perception anyway.

No, no it is not. There are real cards, and there are fake cards. Perception can be used to determine what is real and what is fake, but that does not change the fact that there are real cards and fake cards.

I wasn't joking, really.

Your response saddens me.

Yes, you have been caused pain; yet to pass along the card to another unsuspecting person is to cause further pain. Perhaps not right  away; it was a year after receiving the card that your friend first became aware of the problem. And now you would solve the problem of your friend by inflicting that wound on another? Perhaps we are approaching this from two different value systems, but to me, this is just wrong.

[orgcandman]

I'll probably get my friend in contact with Demonic / someone about the legal end of this to try and help him achieve some piece of mind.

As to his decision, he said he'll continue to play it as real (since honestly, the ONLY way we were able to tell was using different strength and band lights to see that it was, indeed, not the same ink). I don't believe that the dealer would have known it was a fake, since it is impeccably done. He also said that he will attempt to acquire a new piece (one that's REAL) and then contact wizards about the fake. The more we look at it now, the easier it is for us to find slight printing faults that give away it's invalidity. In fact, my girlfriend AND her sister, both trained in the arts of graphic design and layout, looked at it in comparison to my real power and pointed to 3 tells where a high quality scan had not been correctly printed (they said it was common for homebrew printing press setups).

Thanks everyone for their responses. I do think that this discussion merits more debate though.

[Jacob Orlove]

Here's a different situation: suppose you pay $300 on MOTL for a power card. The seller takes your money, but then fails to send you a card. You are unable to recover that money. Does that justify you getting $300 from an unsuspecting MOTL user in the exact same manner? No, it obviously does not.

The only difference here is that instead of "nothing", he has a (apparently very high quality) fake card. It's still just as wrong to sell it to someone else under false pretenses. Using it in unsanctioned tournaments instead of one of your proxies is obviously fine, using it in sanctioned events instead of a card you don't own is obviously not okay.

[Killertree]

Just curious, what card did he buy?

>_>

<_<

[Bram]

No, no it is not. There are real cards, and there are fake cards. Perception can be used to determine what is real and what is fake, but that does not change the fact that there are real cards and fake cards.

My point is that if a fake card is so good that it is absolutely beyond detection by any means, it 'becomes' real for all intents and purposes. There is an objective 'real' out there somewhere (as in: made by WotC) but this cannot be ascertained. The only means of judging if a card is real are secondary, and if they can't conclude it's fake,well, then it's 'real'.

Your response saddens me.

It was not my intent to make you sad. I'm not about to respond in a socially desirable manner either though, if that's not the way I feel.

And now you would solve the problem of your friend by inflicting that wound on another? Perhaps we are approaching this from two different value systems, but to me, this is just wrong.

It is not a problem that you think it is wrong. Hell, *I* think it's wrong. But I'd still do it, partially to get my cash back, partially out of spite.

Here's a different situation: suppose you pay $300 on MOTL for a power card. The seller takes your money, but then fails to send you a card. You are unable to recover that money. Does that justify you getting $300 from an unsuspecting MOTL user in the exact same manner? No, it obviously does not.

No, that does not justify that. What I proposed is not justified either. The difference is that I'd never do what you mentioned in your your example, while I'd be less scrupulous in selling a card I SUSPECT to be fake. What if the buyer doesn't share the thread starter's friend's suspicions? He doesn't KNOW conclusively it's a fake; he didn't make it myself.

It's still just as wrong to sell it to someone else under false pretenses.

Again, I'm not saying it's not wrong; I'm just advising him to do it anyway.

[dicemanx]

In fact, my girlfriend AND her sister, both trained in the arts of graphic design and layout, looked at it in comparison to my real power and pointed to 3 tells where a high quality scan had not been correctly printed (they said it was common for homebrew printing press setups).

What were the tells?

[Jacob Orlove]

I'd still do it, partially to get my cash back, partially out of spite.

It's not "your" cash that you're getting. You're just taking an equal amount of cash from someone else. It's the same for the spite argument--you aren't hurting the person who ripped you off, just some random person. Here's an example to show you what I mean: say someone punches you in the face, then runs away. Is finding some person on the street and punching them in the face out of spite in any way an acceptable response? No.

It's still just as wrong to sell it to someone else under false pretenses.

Again, I'm not saying it's not wrong; I'm just advising him to do it anyway.

If that's your position, then where do you draw the line? What makes some "wrong" actions acceptable anyway, but others not?

[Revvik]

What makes some "wrong" actions acceptable anyway, but others not?

Degree of wrongness?

I've run into these kinds of fakes before, even owned one personally (paid $20 for it, excellent proxy.  Sold it to a dealer for the same).  Always managed to avoid being burnt by fakes, however - I see enough of them to have a good eye, and I only buy power from friends.

Although I can't say I'd take Bram's action, I can't condemn him for it.  A lesson would come with selling the fake as real - be very careful when buying easily reproductable decade-old cards, and whoever buys it will learn the hard way.

[Machinus]

I think this is an issue a lot of newer players worry about, even if they never have to deal with it. Power is hard to come by so some fakes may never be identified for lack of telling comparison. Also there is a huge variation in the way older cards look.

Getting in touch with the original seller is the first thing you need to do. There are different courses of action from there depending on whether or not they knew it was fake. However, you may even get to keep the fake since you are an irate buyer and the seller would probably prefer to avoid some kind of legal trouble or other interference with their business. Even collectors edition power on eBay fetch RIDICULOUS prices, so that is the second thing I would do.

[Bram]

It's not "your" cash that you're getting. You're just taking an equal amount of cash from someone else.

The net amount of cash on my bank account will remain the same, however. Here's a small story to entertain you. This happened to a friend of mine, but I was there (I hop you know I'd have no problem saying if it were me, either). My friend borrowed a bike from a roommate, and we went out (a whole group of us). We had a few drinks and went home, only to find that his bike had been stolen. Stealing one back was not an option. So we all started walking home. Near the central train station, some junkie walked past us with a nice bike and asked of we wanted to buy it. Discussion ensued in the group, but my friend bought the bike. Not for himself, mind you; it was a nicer bike than the one he had borrowed from his roommate, and he gave it to him. Did we know for sure the bike was stolen? No. Was the bike stolen? Hell yeah. Is it 'basically' the same as stealing one yourself? Sorta, yes. Does it matter that the bike my friend had stolen didn't belong to him? No, not really. However, all these facts needed to be in place for him to decide to buy a (most likely) stolen bike.

So:

If that's your position, then where do you draw the line? What makes some "wrong" actions acceptable anyway, but others not?

Obviously only your personality; your personal values and norms; your belief system. According to the law, both examples were 'wrong'. So all that's left is interpretation.

On a more on-topic note: it's not like I even did anything like that. I tend to make absolutely sure I don't manouvre myself into such situations, so it never really came up. I was merely stating what I think I would do if I were him.

[orgcandman]

In fact, my girlfriend AND her sister, both trained in the arts of graphic design and layout, looked at it in comparison to my real power and pointed to 3 tells where a high quality scan had not been correctly printed (they said it was common for homebrew printing press setups).

What were the tells?

Apparently in small shaded areas (such as the palms of the hands of an Ancestral Recall, or parts of the flower petals on Black Lotus, or sections of time twister) non-industrial quality printing equipment connected to personal computers will make faint pixel marks. "faded" areas appear slightly blocked. Also, straight black lines, if analyzed closely enough show small breaks around text boxes and borders.

[The Atog Lord]

My point is that if a fake card is so good that it is absolutely beyond detection by any means, it 'becomes' real for all intents and purposes.

It is not "real" insofar as you are knowingly selling a fake piece of power to some poor person. This does nothing to end the problem of fake cards; rather, your actions here would simply perpetuate the problem.

*I* think it's wrong. But I'd still do it

This may be where our moralities differ. I certainly end up doing plenty of foolish, stupid things -- but I try my best to avoid doing things I know to be wrong.

And harming a person thinking he is buying a real card from you, a person who has done nothing malicious to you, is certainly something I consider wrong.

[everythingitouchdies]

You know I actually fully agree with Bram here. And I admire the fact that he was willing to say it when I did not.

I understand that alot of you are not going to agree with him and will be deeply upset by what he said, but really there is no point in being a martyr and taking a hit in the name of an ethical viewpoint that does nothing but leave you upset over your loss and out a serious amount of money.

Even if you feel guilty that will go away. If it doesnt you can drown it in alcohol. In the end if its you or me, you can bet if I get to choose its going to be you.

I love you all, but I love bram more than the rest of you, and I love me more than bram.

EITD

[Mykeatog]

Wow,
This sounds like it is about a real piece of power - which I will buy. Hell, to end this whole debate, and knowing exactly what us 'lackeys' were paying a year ago.. I'll pay you whatever you paid for it.

Also, this wasn't directed at me I am sure - but it did hit a soft spot. I do my damnedest to maintain a certain level of professionalism as I am trying to make an impression on this industry. I know that Andy doesn't get a lot of love because his morals aren't as important to him as his wallet, but that doesn't mean that every person to ever come in contact with him has turned into a blood-thirsty zombie ebay-dealer. If anyone has a problem with the way a transaction went down between them and any of my affiliates-- I say shame on you. You should have talked to the OTE member who has been shooting straight with the type one community since day one.

[orgcandman]

Wow,
This sounds like it is about a real piece of power - which I will buy. Hell, to end this whole debate, and knowing exactly what us 'lackeys' were paying a year ago.. I'll pay you whatever you paid for it.

Also, this wasn't directed at me I am sure - but it did hit a soft spot. I do my damnedest to maintain a certain level of professionalism as I am trying to make an impression on this industry. I know that Andy doesn't get a lot of love because his morals aren't as important to him as his wallet, but that doesn't mean that every person to ever come in contact with him has turned into a blood-thirsty zombie ebay-dealer. If anyone has a problem with the way a transaction went down between them and any of my affiliates-- I say shame on you. You should have talked to the OTE member who has been shooting straight with the type one community since day one.

Mykeatog,
  You're definately not the person who sold this piece, nor was it implied that you would ever engage in something like this. In fact, the person that sold this piece definately did not know it was fake, and has since left OTE (I don't want to mention names or names of power pieces). I personally have purchased cards from OTE (and Jeff sold me a lotus for you) and haven't had many problems. I do know that this character is not very diligent when checking for authentic power. If you'd like to see the piece in question I can arrange it.

[Godder]

Representing as genuine a card that one knows to be fake, and then selling it as a genuine card, is fraud i.e. obtaining money under false pretences. Faking Power is as bad as stealing it.

I still suggest taking it to the FBI, since they will be much better at tracking down the seller than you are, and this sort of thing is ultimately wrong, illegal, and really has to be stopped.

For example, as Manager of a shop, I once caught someone stealing money from the till (an ongoing problem). Should I have just taken reparations, fired them and left it there? Hell no, I had them arrested and charged, both as a warning to others, and to make sure it was on their record, as a warning to prospective employers. You have to stop these things and let others know.