TheManaDrain.com
September 21, 2025, 11:52:21 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Some More Basic Cascade Cards  (Read 1297 times)
Godder
Remington Steele
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 3264


"Steele here"

walfootrot@hotmail.com
View Profile WWW Email
« on: June 25, 2005, 10:03:07 pm »

Jacob's all looked pretty reasonable to me, but I thought there should be a life gain card, either separately, or added to the Salve card and a Stone Rain variant, just because :D. After thinking about it, I thought of a few more basic cards, so have started a new thread, but this one could be merged with the other basic thread.

D'Up Stone Rain
3R
Sorcery
Destroy target land.
D'Up: 1R

D'Up Naturalize
2G
Instant
Destroy target artifact or enchantment
D'Up: 1G

D'Up Demystify
1W
Instant
Destroy target enchantment
D'Up: W

D'Up Shatter
2R
Instant
Destroy target artifact
D'Up: R

D'Up Dark Banishing
1BB
Instant
Destroy target non-black creature.
D'Up: 1B

D'Up Lifegain
1W
Instant
Target player gains 4 life.
D'Up: 1W

Current Versions

Cascade Stone Rain
{3}{R}
Sorcery
Destroy target land.
Cascade: {1}{R}

Cascade Naturalize
{2}{G}
Instant
Destroy target artifact or enchantment
Cascade: {1}{G}

Cascade Demystify
{1}{W}
Instant
Destroy target enchantment
Cascade: {W}

Cascade Shatter
{2}{R}
Instant
Destroy target artifact
Cascade: {R}

Cascade Dark Banishing
{1}{B}{B}
Instant
Destroy target non-black creature.
Cascade: {1}{B}

Cascade Lifegain
{2}{W}
Instant
Target player gains 4 life.
Cascade: {1}{W}


Edit: Increased Cascade Shatter from 1R to 2R. Increased Cascade Demystify from W to 1W. Increased Lifegain from 1W to 2W.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2005, 11:41:29 am by Godder » Logged

Quote from: Remington Steele
That's what I like about you, Laura - you're always willing to put my neck on the line.
Machinus
Keldon Ancient
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2516



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2005, 10:40:46 pm »

D'Up Stone Rain
3R
Sorcery
Destroy target land.
D'Up: 1R

D'Up Naturalize
2G
Instant
Destroy target artifact or enchantment
D'Up: 1G

D'Up Shatter
1R
Instant
Destroy target artifact
D'Up: R

D'Up Dark Banishing
1BB
Instant
Destroy target non-black creature.
D'Up: 1B

Way too powerful. Add 1 colorless to all of those doubleup costs.
Logged

T1: Arsenal
Slay
Basic User
**
Posts: 86


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2005, 10:45:25 pm »

The doubleup Dark Banishing seems about right, but the other ones are way too powerful. Move everything +1 Doubleup costs except for the Red one and the Black one, because the Red one is just the right power level to have an effect on Vintage.
-Slay
Logged
Godder
Remington Steele
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 3264


"Steele here"

walfootrot@hotmail.com
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2005, 12:18:55 am »

I was using the 'destroy two target' cards as my basic cost guide, so Peace and Quiet, Rain of Salt, Rack and Ruin, Hull Breach and Reckless Spite were the ones I was looking at, because they give you an idea of what two costs, and after that, it's not so important, because you expect good returns for a good amount of mana. While we have to be careful not to undercost these cards, we also have to be careful not to overcost – we want them to 'see play'!

The Naturalize variant isn't much compared to Hull Breach (which was very good, but certainly not broken), and at 5 or 7 mana, I expect some bang for my buck! I honestly can't see how this could be broken at that cost for what it does.

Shatter was made obsolete by Shattering Pulse, Rack and Ruin, Shatterstorm, Pulverize, Oxidize, just to name a few. Admittedly, this is more versatile, so perhaps making it cost 2R to start with is fair, but after that, it had better be good, or nobody will use it.

Likewise for the Stone Rain variant, but at 6 mana, something else exists (Rain of Salt), and at 8 mana, it had better be good!

For the Dark Banishing variant, it allows regeneration, and it costs slightly more than Dark Banishing itself for its first iteration (a card that nobody plays with, even though I think it's a good card in the current Standard). After that, I would hope that at 5, 7, 9 etc. mana would allow for a reasonable effect. Reckless Spite was good in Limited but certainly not broken, and this would be uncommon or rare, so it wouldn't unbalance anything.
Logged

Quote from: Remington Steele
That's what I like about you, Laura - you're always willing to put my neck on the line.
Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 8074


When am I?


View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2005, 02:06:41 am »

Keep in mind that the cards also have the intrinsic advantage of being faaar more flexible than something like Rain of Salt. Look at my card drawing spell:

1 card: U, sorcery. Worse than alternatives, but a U cycling cost isn't bad
2 cards: 1UU sorcery. Council of the Soratami, but 1UU instead of 2U.
3 cards: 2UUU sorcery: U more than Concentrate.

Yet the card would most likely see play, because each of those effects is worth it some of the time.

Likewise, with these, you can't fall into the trap of thinking that the card has to be on par with other alternatives all of the time--the flexibility and counterspell resistance is worth some mana cost.


Also, I deliberately left off some possible cards from my list (Stone Rain in particular), because I felt they'd be a lot better with nonmana D'up costs.

Your demystify variant is ridiculously strictly better than Demystify.

Don't forget that cards have to be balanced for limited, too (dark banishing variant).
Logged

Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
Godder
Remington Steele
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 3264


"Steele here"

walfootrot@hotmail.com
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2005, 08:37:13 am »

Matt has created a wonderful new mechanic in D'Up (kudos!), and I, for one, want to design cards for it that allow these cards to be playable in constructed, because I want them to be a showcase for Matt's creation! I think it deserves more than unplayably overcosted rehashes of decent-to-good cards, so I've been aggressive in my costing to avoid that, and to try to allow even the staples to be eminently playable. As an aside, this is an amazing opportunity for the TMD Design Team (TM) to take a rich mechanic (richer than he thought, one suspects), and mine the hell out of it, all in the name of seeing just what we can achieve. If ever a mechanic has been created here that could be the cornerstone of a TMD set (or Block!), this is it.

A key point of Magic resource theory is that as cards get more expensive, the effects should increase faster than a linear mana comparison would suggest (something everyone here knows already in terms of deck design, but I don't think we take it into account enough in costing effects). In the case of Sorceries, 4 mana is the flashpoint at which cards should either have substantial utility (Creeping Mold) or substantial effects (Wrath), and in the case of Instants, I'd say 5 mana. This makes costing D'Up difficult at times, because undercosting is bad, but overcosting something in the name of utility is very easy, mainly because utility becomes largely irrelevant above a certain mana cost.

My basic guide, therefore, is to look at the first three iterations and compare them to existing cards (much as you've done with your card-draw example), and if they stack up well up to that point, it's not relevant after that.

Anyways, onto the cards themselves...

Everything is better than Demystify – it was created as a bare-bones card solely for the purpose of putting in Eighth Edition. Wax/Wane, Quiet Purity (Arcane), Erase (RFG), Aura Blast (cantrip), Monk Realist (1/1), Kami of Ancient Law (2/2, sac.), Peace and Quiet (2 enchantments) and Serene Offering (gain life = to CMC) are all better than Demystify in their own way, so thatt's not saying much. The effect seems to cost White about 1 mana (i.e. a bit less than W), going by most of the cards printed, but I can see costing this variant at 1W (done). More than that, though, and it would be terrible, so nobody would use it (1W, 1WW, 1WWW etc. looks fine to me).

Rain of Salt is the direct double effect of Stone Rain. However, nobody ever played Rain of Salt, because it costs 6, and 6 mana sorceries should do substantially more than just destroy two lands. Hell, for 7 mana, Red gets an instant, uncounterable, cantrip Armageddon. In my books, a structure of 3R, 4RR, 5RRR (etc.) is fine, because it will never be broken at any of those costs. While I can understand why you left Stone Rain off, my Stone Rain variant is just the basic D'Up effect (extra mana = extra copies). There's plenty of room for other variants to exist with different cost structures, and different D'Up costs (e.g. sacrifice a land), something that holds true for a lot of these effects.

For the other cards:
Shatter – 2R, 2RR, 2RRR (looks fine to me)
Naturalize – 2G, 3GG, 4GGG (again, looks absolutely fine to me)
Dark Banishing – 1BB, 2BBB, 3BBBB (I have to say, as an uncommon or rare card, I just can't see this tearing up Limited or Constructed. It's a good, solid card, but it's not broken at any of those costs – Reckless Spite killed two creatures and cost 1BB and 5 life)
Lifegain – 1W, 2WW, 3WWW (looks fine to me, although it might actually be slightly overpowered or undercosted)

As a side note, using a Blue draw spell as a template for costs is flawed, because card-drawing is always potentially playable as long as it's not hideously overcosted. It's not conditional on anything other than available mana, and drawing additional cards is almost always good Very Happy.
Logged

Quote from: Remington Steele
That's what I like about you, Laura - you're always willing to put my neck on the line.
Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 8074


When am I?


View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2005, 08:49:02 am »

One option that might improve a lot of these cards would be to give them a higher base casting cost, but a lower doubleup cost. That makes them worse if you don't use the d'up, but that's eminently fair. And it emphasizes the effect's resilience to countermagic.

Something like 2GG for the naturalize, doubleup 1 (or 3G, doubleup G), and a similar cost for the dark banishing would be neat, and hardly underpowered.

The stone rain variant is fine, since that effect is basically only good when you get it early. That's part of the reason why a nonmana cost might be better, though--you'd get a lot more utility out of the doubleup.

The lifegain does look strong, but I don't think it's going to be better than Pulse of the Fields or similar. It might have to be uncommon, though.

Logged

Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
Godder
Remington Steele
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 3264


"Steele here"

walfootrot@hotmail.com
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2005, 11:34:54 am »

4 mana for Naturalize? That wouldn't be playable in Contructed unless it was forced down people's throats as the only available option, regardless of the Cascade cost. I quite like the idea of a 1 or G Cascade cost, but I'm not sure if it's safely fair at the third iteration, even if it cost (say) 1GG to start with. Unfortunately, that's also true for the Dark Banishing variant, not to mention the havoc that would be wrought in Limited by a card as efficient at killing stuff as this would be at higher mana costs.

In any case, I have ideas for powerful, Rare versions of the creature kill and L.D. This thread is to showcase Cascade with the basic cards that would be playable, but neither underpowered nor overpowered (although the lifegain is pushing things a bit). There's plenty of room for additional cards that mimic these effects, but with different cost structures and/or nonmana costs. Perhaps a new thread or two?
Logged

Quote from: Remington Steele
That's what I like about you, Laura - you're always willing to put my neck on the line.
Godder
Remington Steele
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 3264


"Steele here"

walfootrot@hotmail.com
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2005, 05:49:02 am »

Bump.
Logged

Quote from: Remington Steele
That's what I like about you, Laura - you're always willing to put my neck on the line.
Godder
Remington Steele
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 3264


"Steele here"

walfootrot@hotmail.com
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2005, 08:17:19 pm »

No further complaints, so following on from Jacob's basic effects without names:

24 Hour clock
Logged

Quote from: Remington Steele
That's what I like about you, Laura - you're always willing to put my neck on the line.
Matt
Post like a butterfly, Mod like a bee.
Moderator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 2297


King of the Jews!


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2005, 12:32:12 pm »

Closed and added.[/color]
Logged

http://www.goodgamery.com/pmo/c025.GIF
----------------------
SpenceForHire2k7: Its unessisary
SpenceForHire2k7: only spelled right
SpenceForHire2k7: <= world english teach evar
----------------------
noitcelfeRmaeT
{Team Hindsight}
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.033 seconds with 21 queries.