[Premium Article] Meandeck Gifts

[Saucemaster]

you would gifts for recoup, will, ancestral, and tinker.

The standard "combo" Gifts stack is actually Recoup, Will, Time Walk, and Tinker, so that you can Walk after Tinkering for DSC, but the above stack is nice as well.  It's been mentioned before, but it bears repeating: while it's good to keep in mind the "standard" Gifts stacks, please don't automatically go for them!  There are often significantly better stacks, and almost ANY cleverly-constructed Gifts stack should put you far enough ahead to win the game even if it doesn't result in an immediate Tinker or Will.  Unfortunately, learning which stacks are appropriate is mostly a matter of experience.

[Thug]

I actually think its often better not to include the Tinker in the gifts, unless you still have Lotus in your library.
Often a gifts will lead to a Will, and I rather have more cards that put me ahead of my opponent than something that doesn't immediatly win the game.
Off course when you still can double walk Tinker is the right call, but often when you will you have no problem finding Tinker.
Lotus is one of the best card to combine with Recoup Will and it should almost always be there. The only reason not to include it is a chalice with zero counters, or a opponent that very likely might be holding more countermagic than you have.

Koen

[doylehancock]

you would gifts for recoup, will, ancestral, and tinker.

The standard "combo" Gifts stack is actually Recoup, Will, Time Walk, and Tinker, so that you can Walk after Tinkering for DSC, but the above stack is nice as well.  It's been mentioned before, but it bears repeating: while it's good to keep in mind the "standard" Gifts stacks, please don't automatically go for them!  There are often significantly better stacks, and almost ANY cleverly-constructed Gifts stack should put you far enough ahead to win the game even if it doesn't result in an immediate Tinker or Will.  Unfortunately, learning which stacks are appropriate is mostly a matter of experience.

I like recall (though walk is good) because I will most likely get recoup and recall.  If I have recall I will be drawing 6 cards off the recall and the recoup of the will.  I will draw to a tutor and then tutor for walk.

[Saucemaster]

Both of you (Thug and doylehancock) have valid points, but the question was, "what's the 'combo' Gifts stack?"  In reality you will rarely Gifts for the "standard" combo stack, but for neenjafus' reference, I figured I should point out the "combo".  Again, in an actual game the optimal Gifts is rarely a cut and dry question, and you can get pretty creative.

[neenjafus]

That is very helpful. I had figured that the gift cards would vary depending on the conditions of the game, but I was seeing reference to a "combo" gifts, so you cleared that up.

How about the sideboard?

Specifically, which sorcerys would be included as burning wish targets?

I can definately see pyroclasm and of course tendrils, but what else are people using?  Is it simply metagame targets, or are there more standard choices?

Thanks again, you guys have been very helpful!

[venus to mars]

That is very helpful. I had figured that the gift cards would vary depending on the conditions of the game, but I was seeing reference to a "combo" gifts, so you cleared that up.

How about the sideboard?

Specifically, which sorcerys would be included as burning wish targets?

I can definately see pyroclasm and of course tendrils, but what else are people using?  Is it simply metagame targets, or are there more standard choices?

Thanks again, you guys have been very helpful!

I personally don't run more than tendrils and pyroclasm for wish targets. Remember that you're not playing keeper here; you don't need an answer to everything in play. The rebuild/echoing truth is already in the mainboard, so you don't need an artifact removal sorcery.

[JuJu]

I almost always go for Lotus, Will, Recoup, Tinker/Ancestral/Time Walk. Often enough I cast the ancestral early, as well as the tinker due to scrolls and etc. the Lotus, will, recoup goes nicely with everything else that ends up in my grave.

[Lord of the Goats]

really the strength of this deck is merchant scroll. however, it's not the only deck that should be running scroll. i tested the tog list i ran at Rochester which is similar to bushman's.... gift's mistditections owned my overcosted deep anals if i hardcast them and no matter what gave me a huge tempo loss. mindtwist was awful.... and i was loosing unless going really broken.

then i tested against my modified tog list running no twist, and merchant scroll over deep anal (no real mis-d targets). there's a very drastic change in the matchup. it went from gifts slaughtering tog (as semennen said) to it being in tog's favor. really, the reason to play this deck is merchant scroll. that said, decks Will adjust to it in part by running scrolls themselves.... on a fundamental level they will have the same early game as gifts (scroll -> ancestral) but then will have different engines which in most cases are cheaper (thirst, intuition) which means they will have a shot at resloving their draw first... 

a few random things:

scroll may not get duress... but it still gets fow so the fact that it can get mis-d is largely irrelevant.

mis-d blows when you loose the counterwar

i suspect the sb has 2 copies of boseiju... if crazy Carl had anything to do w/ it. i also wouldn't be surprised to see a fire/ice since it's scrollable, and I've always been a fan of meltdown because it wrecks chalice. . 

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Alex,

I think you're really underestimating MisD. The reason Meandeck Gifts beats control is because it runs 7 Free counters and only needs to resolve 1 spell to win. In a deck like Tog or Slaver your draw sets up your win. In Gifts, a resolving a gifts wins you the game. When I play this deck, I have no issues with an opponent drawing cards. The only thing I'm worried about is resolving gifts. If thats the case, misD protects gifts better than duress. Which brings me to my next point.

The deck runs 10 artifact accellerants. 10. Thats more than any control deck out there. This mana advantage is huge. It means I can cast gifts by turn 3 and back it up, while you still sit at 3 mana.

You are 100% right about merchant scroll. It's amazing. Merchant scroll for Force of Will means I don't have to recoup a walk. Instead, it means I walk once and sit on a counter.

I think the reason Tog has ANY chance vs. Gifts is because it has Wish--->GY removal and duress. Any control deck running just 4 force and 4 drain cannot expect to keep up with Gifts and it's 7 pitch counters.

-Bob

[shade88]

My thoughts on…

Duress Vs Misdirection (or rather why misdirection is better in 4 merchant scroll gifts)

Steve M. pointed out the solid theoretical argument for why duress should be played. When you have 56 cards, and 4x duress, and duress will more often than not be taking a more powerful card than you could have played in slots 57-60, it is the correct choice to play duress. The other argument for duress is that it is used to force through a bomb, in this case gifts.

However, the unique comparison with meandecks gifts, which is also a sign that the deck should have restrictions made, is that duress’s first reason to be played doesn’t apply. The 56 cards meandeck gifts plays are better than any decks 56 cards (although TPS does play a relatively broken deck list). Therefore, the only purpose of duress is the second purpose, to force through a card. It should be noted, that earlier versions of gifts didn’t play as aggressively because of the lack of 4x merchant scrolls, and, accordingly, duress didn’t have the sole purpose of forcing through cards as it does in meandeck gifts. Sometimes its versatility was more important than forcing through your cards. Like I stated earlier though, that isn’t the case with meandeck gifts. The 56 cards you play are better than 100% of the 56 cards other decks play.

Thus the argument for misdirection Vs duress is solely based upon resolving a bomb—gifts ungiven. Duress doesn’t cut it because it allows the opponent to draw into counters, and weakens the mana base in two ways. More underground seas must be played, but the curve of an incredibly aggressive deck is weakened. Being able to turn 1 merchant scroll, turn 2 drain or ancestral recall, and turn 3 gifts isn’t possible with duress, and simply casting gifts on turn 3 is harder when ancestrall recall can't consistently be played to search for 3 more cards.

The only argument in favor of duress is that it is a 1 for 1, where as misdirection is a 1 for 2. However, this argument is much like the argument for life totals. Being at 1 or 20 life doesn’t matter if you control the game, and having force and misdirection back up to gifts ungiven (or at least making the opponent have to guess if you do or not) even with the possibility of losing 4 cards doesn’t matter because if gifts resolves you have a great chance at winning that game, especially if you both trade counters, and then you gifts for scroll, fact or fiction, gifts ungiven, and brainstorm and draw 4+ cards while your opponent emptied his hand of counters and cards. The idea is that is doesn’t matter if you win the game with 1 life, 100 life, 1 card or 10 cards in hand, as long as you win the game. And, if gifts resolves, winning that game is easier. Your opponent either has no counters left and you get card advantage or you both have counters still and you find that broken combo. Because of this, misdirection has too many things going for it that duress doesn’t: it some what eases a weak mana base, it allows for an incredibly aggressive deck to stay aggressive, it keeps the opponent guessing, and the strongest theoretical argument for duress, that it is a 1 for 1 and not a 1 for 2 doesn’t apply because if gifts resolves your hand can simply be refilled.

[Lord of the Goats]

Alex,

I think you're really underestimating MisD. The reason Meandeck Gifts beats control is because it runs 7 Free counters and only needs to resolve 1 spell to win. In a deck like Tog or Slaver your draw sets up your win. In Gifts, a resolving a gifts wins you the game. When I play this deck, I have no issues with an opponent drawing cards. The only thing I'm worried about is resolving gifts. If thats the case, misD protects gifts better than duress. Which brings me to my next point.

The deck runs 10 artifact accellerants. 10. Thats more than any control deck out there. This mana advantage is huge. It means I can cast gifts by turn 3 and back it up, while you still sit at 3 mana.

You are 100% right about merchant scroll. It's amazing. Merchant scroll for Force of Will means I don't have to recoup a walk. Instead, it means I walk once and sit on a counter.

I think the reason Tog has ANY chance vs. Gifts is because it has Wish--->GY removal and duress. Any control deck now-a-days cannot expect to keep up with Gifts and it's 7 pitch counters.

-Bob

what's up man?

don't get me wrong.... i love this deck. i really do and right now i think that mis-d is the right call... but only because it's unexpected. i think the reason it beats control is that it can consistently tutor up ancestral. i don't think that duress or mis-d are necessarily better since they will be a metagame call. both make sure ancestral resolves.... and right now that is the power of the deck. find ancestral first, resolve it. after that it doesn't matter. the fact that duress takes away your ability to scroll on first turn is   also important.... although i don't think that will matter once people learn to prepare for gifts.

however my point is that as people adjust to this (and since it's been posted here they will very quickly) they will do 3 things that i see as relevant.

1) run Less mis-d targets. the tempo of getting something mis-d'd (like deep anal) will easily cost you the game. the opening that mis-d can create is pretty powerful.  without mid-d targets it's just a pitch counter... which is fine but not spectacular. more on this in a sec.
2) run duress. duress is very good vs combo, which this is. it gets around mis-d.
3) run scrolls. this is the big one. test against any modified control deck with a few scrolls, there's a huge difference in the matchup because both decks have the same plan. yes, mis-d protects your ancestral as well as threatening theirs but their duress is just as bad for you.  right now this is the only deck running scroll/ancestral.... but as this changes gifts  becomes more expensive than other draw engines. as this happens, gifts will loose more counter wars which will make mis-d worse and duress better because duress allows you to start a war with knowledge of what they can do, thus you should not loose a war after you duress.... the reverse is not true of mis-d.... and seeing that you can't win a counter war yet isn't nearly as bad as starting one, fighting with pitch counters, and then loosing anyway.

it's not that I'm underestimating mis-d... it's that i don't think there will be a relavant tournament in my area before the suprise factor of this deck is gone. like i said, i think mis-d is correct now at least in most metagames and in an unprepared field.... i have strong doubts as to it's value once adjustments have been made.

on artifact acceleration, yeah... gifts runs a petal and a vault more than hulk, and a petal more than slaver. it's also true that the other control decks engine cards cost 3 instead of 4.

about tog, I'm not sure why there's so much about tog in this thread since it's not even heavily played. in normal tog i agree with you, their game is all about cunning wish-> grave hate and duress. however, if you run scrolls this is no longer the case because tog can get the quick ancestral (or fow) and then intuition/ak where gifts is trying to gifts... it makes it basically a mirror match. same draw engine followed buy a very similar draw engine. not to mention that scroll has more targets in tog

[shade88]

@ Lord of the Goats

I think you are completely right. If the only solution to the merchant scroll-->anesctrall draw engine is to run that very draw engine, plus whatever other draw you had, then misdirection does become much weaker. Gifts currently has 1 up on control because scroll-->ancestral resolves before the opponents draw engine, and that means gifts resolves. However, if both decks run scroll-->ancestral, then intuition-->ak, thirst for knowledge become a turn faster than gifts ungiven. In that case, duress gains more value than misdirection because its sole value is no longer to resolve a gifts, but additionally to stop the opponents draw engine, which misdirection doesn't do because its a 1 for 2 and it is just a terrible counter for an opponents spell in general.

[doylehancock]

That is very helpful. I had figured that the gift cards would vary depending on the conditions of the game, but I was seeing reference to a "combo" gifts, so you cleared that up.

How about the sideboard?

Specifically, which sorcerys would be included as burning wish targets?

I can definately see pyroclasm and of course tendrils, but what else are people using?  Is it simply metagame targets, or are there more standard choices?

Thanks again, you guys have been very helpful!

I personally don't run more than tendrils and pyroclasm for wish targets. Remember that you're not playing keeper here; you don't need an answer to everything in play. The rebuild/echoing truth is already in the mainboard, so you don't need an artifact removal sorcery.

I have been thinking of timetwister.  any thoughts?  It seems it could help when I need draw.

[Smmenen]

I played in two events at Origins this weekend with meandeck gifts as I promised.

I lost one game in two tournaments.   I have two byes for Gencon. 

[doylehancock]

I played in two events at Origins this weekend with meandeck gifts as I promised.

I lost one game in two tournaments.   I have two byes for Gencon. 

sweet. good job.  what is the same exact list?

what was the board like?

[Lunar]

I would hope a report would be forthcoming steve, as you winning some events is good and all, but is completely irrelevant if we dont know what kind of matchups/opponents you played against...

[Jacob Orlove]

Okay, I just had to chime in briefly, because something was confusing me. Apparently, other decks are going to cut down on cards like DA, making Mis-d worse, but they're also going to adopt the scroll/ancestral plan. Now, isn't Ancestral a better mis-d target than DA or whatever? It seems that if everyone is racing to resolve early ancestrals, Mis-d actually gets better than Duress, not worse.

[Smmenen]

I don't have time to write a report or probably another article on Gifts, but I will say this:

I don't think I did the standard "gifts" even once all weekend.  My gifts were almost always unique and highly situation specific.     Just as an example, one of my gifts was Mana Vault, Sol Ring, Rebuild, and Gifts.  I did that when my opponent had Chalice 0 and Chalice 2 in play and I was holding Tinker.  I can't even go into detail becuase I don't remember the situations, but my Gifts were highly, highly determined by the situation - even moreso than Doomsdays. 

[Machinus]

I played in two events at Origins this weekend with meandeck gifts as I promised.

I lost one game in two tournaments.   I have two byes for Gencon. 

Good work on the very high finish, Steve.

There is something that needs to be brought up in this thread. Steve is advocating what is essentially a combo deck. Take out the mana drains, and what are we left with? Tutors, mana acceleration, and card draw. The fact that you are running 1-2 maindeck bounce spells and enough blue for force AND misdirection just makes this an almost monoblue combo deck. The deck doesn't have disruption - it has protection for its own combo.

Not only is this a very different build of the deck from the previous uses of gifts - first in belcher, then in "gifted" - but it is a completely different strategy from other mana drain decks in vintage. Sensei is the only other deck that is comparable to the way this deck executes, except steve's deck is faster and better.

Obviously Steve and many others believe that the combo verison is the most powerful incarnation of this deck, and so far the results are very supportive of that conclusion. However, in order to support this speed, the deck has to make many sacrifices, including weaker acceleration and weaker support cards such as misdirection. I would remain open to the possibiliy that a reversion to the control style for this deck may be necessary in the future to account for hate and adjustment.

[Smmenen]

I want to emphasize that many of my gifts were control oriented: an attempt to get further card advantage and to stay ahead.  I Gifted for Scroll, Walk, Mystical/DT, and Brainstorm quite frequently.  I played it like a control deck in the early game that combos out in the late game.  I just want to be clear about that. 

[Thug]

I played a slight variant of this deck to a first place finish a couple of hours ago and I thought I might share some of my thoughts. (might post a QnD report later when results get up)
I lost 1 game all day because I kept a hand I shouldn't have, the differences I made were basically -1 scroll, -1 MisD, -Truth +1 Shaman +1 Mind Twist, +1 Vamp +1 Rushing River. (61 cards, yup, sorry people)
My friend Arthur played excatly the same list (he didnt really have time to prepare so I gave him mine and we discussed some cards) to a 2nd place fininsh, losing only to me in the finals (we already splitted the price, so this wasn't a big deal)

Conclusions:

- I played the deck aggresivly all day long and this payed off very good. At least twice I was the first player to win his round, fininshing it in around 15 minutes.
- Ancestral Recall followed by a gifts really often is enough to win the game, the deck plays very strange after burning these cards though.
- MisD felt like a FoW  with some added bonuses all the time, responding to an opponent spell and than Misdirecting his counter to his own spell feels like cheating.
- Misdirection an Ancestral decides games.
- This never came up but Rushing River is able to bounce your opponents Colossus while Truth and Chain can't. Bouncing 2 permanents can be quite handy too, I think it's worth the extra mana.
- I never won with a Tendrils, now matter how hard I tried. This almost was always because of having too little mana. Just playing Tinker + Walk and finding a tutor for Burning Wish is so much easier. I often went Tinker, Walk, merchant for Mystical out of a Will, just to get the Burning Wish and getting another two turns if needed.
- The Deck is fast enough to race any sort of aggro strategy.
- I never missed Duresses, I didn't play against combo though.
- Mind Twist won me two games, it was OK in the other games where I saw it. (Uncounterable Twist is hot)
- Colossus never got stp'ed or bounced once.
- Frantic search probably could be a nice addition to the deck as suggested by Daniel (who played the deck to a less exiting finish, missing top 8)
- The deck begs for another MisD, cutting it down to 2 probably was wrong

My sideboard looked like this:

Sorceries:
1 Chainer's Edict (never used once)
1 Pyroclasm (sideboarded it in a couple of times, never saw it)
1 Tendrils of Agony (as said before, didn't use it)
1 Cranial Extraction (never used it, still believe it's pretty good though)

Others:
1 REB (Better than drain after boarding)
1 Pyroblast (See REB)
1 BEB (should have been hydroblast, very good with Merchant, destroyed a Lackey and a WGD)
1 H. Recall (synergy with Scroll)
2 Rack and Ruin (for Stax and WTF, didn't play either though)
2 Seasinger (An old Man that takes Mongrel is good, didn't use it though)
1 Coffin Purge (very good all day)
1 Bosejui, Who I Can't Spell (uncounterable Mind Twist for 5 is hot  , seems pretty good just to slow for the maindeck)
1 Spawning Pit (necessary evil)

I think the Chainers Edict can go for a better card, maybe Pyroblast #2

Koen

[urza23]

I don't know if anyone has tested the match up, but how well does this deck play against Sensei, Sensei. Or is the match up similar enough to TPS?

[Smmenen]

Koen, you should have just played my maindeck.  The only decision that I think is really flexible is the - Truth + Vamp.  But the 4 Scrolls and 3 misd are a must. 

[Ultima]

There seems to be alot of curiousity about the SB. 

This is what I've been using in testing;

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind Twist - This ended up actually being much better in the board as a wish target after my testing
1 Deep Analysis- This is what i have been using as wishable draw and its been really good thus far since you can side it in and it has decent synergy with gifts against control.
1 Pyroblast
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Rushing River
1 Fire/Ice
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroclasm
3 Rack and Ruin

What do your SBs look like?

Edit :  Also, I have been testing Builder's Bane in the SB as well against Stax and Wokshop and it has been doing pretty well, has anyone else tried this out.

[Machinus]

I've put DA in and taken it out of the board a few times. Right now I can't really fit it in, and I don't need it since there is a lot of draw maindeck, but I might put it back in depending on what tournament I was going to. Also, I am not playing the meandeck build.

[diamond66]

I picked up the deck early Thursday morning on my way to Origins, and it took me a few days to get moderately comfortable with it, so I didn't play it until the Champs Prelim on Saturday.  Having little time to work out an "optimal" sideboard, this is what I ended up running:

1 Red Elemental Blasts
1 Pyroblast
1 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroclasm
3 Damping Matrix
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Mystic Remora
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Sundering Titan

The Truth, I believe after seeing the deck work on Saturday and Sunday,  should definitely be a sorcery speed bounce spell to be wished for.  The crypts I only used once, but they were exceptionally strong.  Also, I think that the mystic remoras are metagame calls, but I saw a good deal of combo, including several kobold clamp and deathlong, and a lot of Gifts mirrors, and I think that are exceptionally strong.  The Titan was my "techy" addition to the sideboard, and it came about as a last minute addition to the deck after analysing the play of most of the people piloting the deck.  As I saw the matchups go down, many poeple were allowing tinker for Colossus to resolve, and then attempting to deal with the Colossus, especially in the mirror.  The belief that the deck has such unencumbered card search allowed many people to play as if the card necessary, rebuild or truth, was already in hand, and thus it was easier to fight over that than the tinker.  I played Steve in round 1 and resolved tinker --> titan against him, nuking his board.  It would have been a back breaker but for a small mistake on my part not countering a brainstorm I believe, and his savagely tight play and top decking.  Overall, I was very pleased with my SB configuration.

[Lord of the Goats]

Okay, I just had to chime in briefly, because something was confusing me. Apparently, other decks are going to cut down on cards like DA, making Mis-d worse, but they're also going to adopt the scroll/ancestral plan. Now, isn't Ancestral a better mis-d target than DA or whatever? It seems that if everyone is racing to resolve early ancestrals, Mis-d actually gets better than Duress, not worse.

yes and no. as was said earlier, it's easy to play around duress by not fetching ancestral. it's easy to avoid mis-d by not blindly casting ancestral. which is where duress comes in. the deck running duress has the threat of duressing ancestral which prevents the fetching of ancestral. the deck with mis-d still allows the fetching of ancestral and can't touch it until it's cast... which may be after duress. duress grants more knowlege and allows you to dictate how things are fought and helps you win the war (and takes gifts or scroll or brokeness). mis-d only helps win the war.

getting deep anal mis-d'd is actualy often worse than ancestral because you've used 4 main phase mana or intuitioned, payed 2 and 3 life.... to let your opponent draw for no mana, cast their eot spell, and untap without fear. the good mis-d targets are usually high cc sorceries so that mana investment is important. thus mis-d creates an opening to win.

[Smmenen]

Please stop pming me and emailing me about the sideboard.

There is a reason that I didn't mention the SB in the article. Although I open sourced this deck - I have the right to keep *some* tech to myself. 

Point: please stop asking me about it.  Thanks. 

[shade88]

Edit: only if opponent runs merchant scroll-->ancestral recall draw engine.

I have a general rule of thumb im going by, and i find it to be pretty solid for meandeck gifts. Of course it only applies if you know your metagame, but here it is:

If you have equal or more counters/hand disruption, running misdirection is better.
If you are facing opponents with more counters/hand disruption, running duress is better.

In conclusion, misdirection is a clear choice currently, but as the metagame changes to adapt to meandeck gifts, duress might fall back into the maindeck.

[Aaron]

I have a general rule of thumb im going by, and i find it to be pretty solid for meandeck gifts. Of course it only applies if you know your metagame, but here it is:

If you have equal or more counters/hand disruption, running misdirection is better.
If you are facing opponents with more counters/hand disruption, running duress is better.

Sorry, but this theory is incorrect. Duress costs B, which means you have to fetch out Underground Seas early, while Misdirection is free, trading board dominance for tempo. Both can be thought of as "counterspells", but one is free and one isn't. It's also not a matter of going -3 Duress, +3 Misdirection. Meandeck Gifts is an entirely different deck than other Gifts.decs.