[Premium Article] Meandeck Gifts

[doylehancock]

I would think 4 islands and 5 fetch is better than 6 fetch and 3 island.  Wastelands (at least in my metagame) are everywhere and you need the islands to be safe.  So I suggest 5/4/3/2 or if you want 3 seas as well only 4 fetch. 

[the boogie man]

I have a question: is ground seal as effective as  tormods crypt? I know that it does not prevent a topdecked yawgwill, but it prevents recouped wills and tinker, plus it trips. it also is not susceptible to rebuild, where crypt is. plus, seal is also good against control slaver. just looking for an opinion.

[doylehancock]

I have a question: is ground seal as effective as  tormods crypt? I know that it does not prevent a topdecked yawgwill, but it prevents recouped wills and tinker, plus it trips. it also is not susceptible to rebuild, where crypt is. plus, seal is also good against control slaver. just looking for an opinion.

its okay but then you would be running green and without tog (you cant remove) so your deck may not be too good.  Keep in mind that echoing truth is in every deck right now (side or main)

[PucktheCat]

Why can't you remove with Tog?

Ground Seal G1
Enchantment

When Ground Seal comes into play, draw a card.
Cards in graveyards can't be the targets of spells or abilities.

Tog doesn't target.

The real problems with Ground Seal is that it only affects Recoup and it doesn't have to be removed until the deck wants to win.  That means the deck just gets to dig until it finds a tutor or bounce spell and then it will bounce the Seal and win or just tutor for Yawg. Will and win with the Seal in play.

Leo

[the boogie man]

I was talking about in oath. if they just sit there and dig, then I have a huge oportunity to sit there and play my oath and beatdown. not to mention, the seal allows me to protect my blessing from things like coffine purge. the thing that seal allwos me to do is to create a large enough window of time to allow me to win, not to completely get them locked down. if digging for will was as easy as gifting it up, then I think that the gifts are, for a large part, completely superflous.

[PucktheCat]

I think it will buy you some time, and may win you some games.  You asked about it relative to Crypt and I gave you my answer in that context.  It won't be as effective as Crypt for the reasons I metioned.

Gifts is a draw engine as well as a tutor.  One of its most important functions is fetching lots of mana to make Yawg. Will broken or fetching tutors/draw to help you dig up a Will.

Leo

[the boogie man]

me saying that gifts was superflous was just to prove a point, not to say that it was overrated.

[sa-x]

congrats on designing what IMO is the best deck to surface in a long time.  restrctions will follow

[Smmenen]

@Smemmen.

First, congrats for the results of the deck in your last tourneys. I think that you could have won with any decks you decided to play


OTOH,  I would like to add a couple more questions for you:

1) Which have been your opponents? Even if you won't extensively write about the details of the matches with a report, can you breifly summarize the opponent's decks?

2) You would probabily have played with one or two bouncers maindeck. Have been they better than any other possible choices?

I played against lots of control: Gifts mirrors, Oath, 4cc, and misc Drain decks.  I played against Fish and Stax as well as Meandeath. 

I think that the single Truth, the single Rebuild, and the Burning Wish is plenty of inherent flexibility.  I would not change a single one of those cards even if I expected lots of Workshops with Chalice 1. 

...
Addendum.

In my city, I organized a 24h-Magic-The-Gathering competition during the last week. I talk a lot with one of my teammates and he decided to play your deck. He did well during all the tourneys played, but without doing too well. He always placed not so distant from the Top8s, but he always missed them.
He realized that he did badly especially against the decks that recognize the structure and the skeleton of your deck. I'm saying these words not to dismiss your work, but only to give more details and more data to you, in order to go deeply in the mechanics of your new product.
OTOH, he confessed me that he had never played a so exciting deck from a while. He told me that he had more potential than he had ever thought and it is fun as hell.
Props to you.

I know other people have not had success with this deck either - but tons of people have.  The deck has huge flexibity in terms of the game it can play.  You can play almost like TPS against Goblins and Workshops or you can play an extremely strong control deck in control mirrors.

In my control mirrors, I was constantly asking how many cards my opponents had in hand.  I would only make my move when I knew they couldn't stop me.  I was using Gifts to get card advantage and Merchant Scrolls for card quality and advantage as well. 

Going for the "Combo" immediately in the control mirror is generally the wrong play.  Your goal is to play the control role for as long as possible.  You want to bait them on their turn and then force through a key spell on your turn when the time comes.  For example, you may want to go for an "EOT" Gifts to get them to tap down a bit and then if it resolves, get carsd like; Brainstorm, Scroll, Gifts, Mystical Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Time Walk, etc.  It is generall and obvious control mirror principles: develop your mana, stay ahead in terms of card advantage, and don't want into their game plan.  I found gifts to be very effective at creating card advantage with broken cards. 

[Aaron]

I played this deck at a local tourney earlier this week, and I won every match 2-0, never having a game three. This deck is simply amazing at out-brokening the opponent at every step, often coming in the form of Misdirections. For me, this card has been much more than FoW #5-7. MisD on a draw spell or an Edict for my Darksteel was often a swing in tempo that my opponenets could never recover from.

Additionally, I found that Scroll for FoW was one of my strongest plays on my setup turn for the combo - Anybody else finding this also? I am amazed at the deck's ability to perfectly switch roles on a dime; so much more flexible than SSB.

[gusjdt]

Smmenen: I want to know what it is you would do the first few turns when you play this deck. Do you always go for ancestral and then try to find tinker and use the timewalk/recoup utility? Or do you do something else depending on the matchup? Also, how do you usually tendrils for 20, if you run it in sideboard? I dont have a premium account, so I cannot read any of those articles including yours, which is a real pity. If you could explain to me, or us, how it is you do against certain matchups that usually guarantee you the win. Thanks in advance.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Smmenen: I want to know what it is you would do the first few turns when you play this deck. Do you always go for ancestral and then try to find tinker and use the timewalk/recoup utility? Or do you do something else depending on the matchup? Also, how do you usually tendrils for 20, if you run it in sideboard? I dont have a premium account, so I cannot read any of those articles including yours, which is a real pity. If you could explain to me, or us, how it is you do against certain matchups that usually guarantee you the win. Thanks in advance.

ok, the burning wish kill is extremely effective. Basically, you want to gifts EOT for Will/wish/recoup/lotus and merchant scroll up a rebuild. By that time, you'll have a couple moxes, and you should be able to go off easily. Also, you should be playing the deck extremely aggressively. Get your draw to resolve early, build up your manabase, and win a counter war over your gifts, and just win. The worst thing you can do is sit back. Make them play your game, you are the aggressor. The thing to realize about gifts is that all you need to do is reolve 1 gifts to win the game.

Also, I'd like to point out, that CS doesn't have a strong game vs. gifts at all. Game 1 is an absolute slaughter, as they have to play through your 7 pitch counters. And postboard, Pithing needle destroys them. Who cares about CS when they can't use welder? Also, if they don't have one in play, you can name tormod's crypt, or whatever hate they try and bring in.

-Bob
-Bob

[The Atog Lord]

Also, I'd like to point out, that CS doesn't have a strong game vs. gifts at all. Game 1 is an absolute slaughter, as they have to play through your 7 pitch counters.

Absolute slaughter? I'm not so sure that I'd be willing to go that far in describing the match. Game one is quite challenging for Control Slaver, but if the Control Slaver player knows to play around Misdirection, that goes a long way toward making things better. Also, I've been maindecking Tormod's Crypt in my Control Slaver deck since Origins; the card is fine against several decks in the metagame, and just great against Gifts. I've never seen a deck without Bazaar so harmed by the card.

Today, in the semi finals of Mike's Mox tournament, I beat Gifts, taking my record against the deck to 4-0-1 in tournament matches. Library of Alexandria was an all-star in the match. Gifts has no real way to remove it, and using its card advantage, it becomes very possible to put yourself in a position to win. Yes, Gifts enjoys added control elements in the form of Misdirection. However, neither Welder nor Thirst are especially bothered by that particular card. And Control Slaver can board in additional countermagic in the form of Red Blast.

One of my first observations in this match is that the traditionally amazing play of using Vampiric Tutor or Mystical Tutor to grab an Ancestral is a great way to lose yourself the game. Misdirection sits in the Gifts' player's hand, just praying for the chance to target that ancient blue instant. Rather, a card like Fact or Fiction or Thirst for Knowledge may be a better choice.

So, what advantages does Control Slaver have over this deck? Well, first, with the exception of Ancestral, Gifts isn't great at generating card advantage without spending four mana. Control Slaver has Library and Thirst to do so. In addition, Control Slaver's Welders are strong in a format filled with people Tinkering up huge 11/11's.

More than any of that, however, is the matter of winning big vs winning small. Control Slaver is great at winning small. Sure, sometimes Yawgmoth's Will happens. But there are plenty of games won by Welding in a Pentavus that got discarded to Thirst and going aggro. And still other games won off hardcasting a Triskelion. Whereas, while Gifts isn't unable to win small, that's not its specialty. Tinkering up a Colossus without any support is a risker play for Gifts than it is for CS, and sometimes that plan meets with an untimely Goblin Welder. Rather, it is far more likely that Gifts wins through setting up and executing a giant Yawgmoth's Will, or at least some turn with enough storm to Tendrils someone out.

With all of that said, while I certainly plan to continue to play Control Slaver, I certainly respect the Gifts deck.

[gusjdt]

The thing to realize about gifts is that all you need to do is reolve 1 gifts to win the game.

See, thats why I dont understand. I have no idea how you can justify that just by resolving one gifts wins you the game right there. In my opinion, that would almost always depend on the situation. Example, lets say you already used burning to tutor for something else, or it was removed from the game with a certain card, like cranial. That leaves you with one alternative to winning, which is by getting colossus in play.. but, lets say you have him in your hand, which usually is what happens to me. You'd have to either gifts for lots of mana or a way to get tinker into your hand, and then brainstorm to put colossus in your library, then play tinker. I dont see that just by resolving one gifts will win you the game.. It's hard to believe. Maybe you could explain that? Sorry for being a pain, hehe, but I have to know.

[Whatever Works]

congrats on designing what IMO is the best deck to surface in a long time.  restrctions will follow

I doubt it. The deck has only done well at origins in a field that you could calll average at best. With the best players not playing gifts beating the deck in several circumstances. Good players took advantage of an uprepared field. Yesterday at the Mykatog tourney a large # of players played gifts, and honestly almost all of them crapped out. Perhaps a good deal of this is due to playskill, but more likely because players were expectiing gifts, and were exstremely prepared for the matchup.

Every Fish deck in the field appeared to be running rootwater thief, and about half the field was running Extract in there board. Gifts can play around some of this, but when your forced to play around soooo many cards the deck is forced to either play passive (which is never good), or force situations that are less then favorable.

[dicemanx]

I decided to try this deck yesterday along with fellow T1 player Matt Locke (Carthain on TMD). We both managed to top 8 and I managed to make the finals, not losing a single match (3-0-3 in the swiss, 34 players total). Matt also made top 8 with 4-1-1 but we were paired up in the quarterfinals and had a luckfest of a match (Gifts on Gifts is a supremely retarded). I must say though that the deck is extremely shaky, but on par with the previous iteration of the deck that I piloted locally and at SCG9:Rochester. Matt and I were mulling every second hand at least, and we should count ourselves fortunate to evade much of the Gifts hate. The deck certainly top-decks very well, but it has some issues in the card drawing/card advantage department. Most of the games that I lost were because I couldn't get going fast enough in the face of my opponent's pressure + disruption. Also, many games were won because of a lucky top-deck. Even though I made finals, I felt like I contributed little skill-wise and the deck was piloting itself.

I think people in this thread are a little too optimistic about the deck, and we're jumping the gun proclaiming this to be the top deck in the format. Statements like "resolve one Gifts = win" betrays a lack of understanding how this deck works in a tourney setting and what resources are available to opponents. What's worse is that, as Kyle mentions above, the deck has lost its initial surprise value and now people play around the Misdirections and target either the scant win conditions with Thiefs/Extract or the graveyard. This begs the question of whether Gifts with maindeck Furnaces might not be a better choice for the increasing possibility of the mirror match.
   

[Smmenen]

congrats on designing what IMO is the best deck to surface in a long time.  restrctions will follow

I doubt it. The deck has only done well at origins in a field that you could calll average at best. With the best players not playing gifts beating the deck in several circumstances. Good players took advantage of an uprepared field. Yesterday at the Mykatog tourney a large # of players played gifts, and honestly almost all of them crapped out. Perhaps a good deal of this is due to playskill, but more likely because players were expectiing gifts, and were exstremely prepared for the matchup.

Every Fish deck in the field appeared to be running rootwater thief, and about half the field was running Extract in there board. Gifts can play around some of this, but when your forced to play around soooo many cards the deck is forced to either play passive (which is never good), or force situations that are less then favorable.

You must not pay attention and evidently you don't even read the posts in this thread.  Koen Van Dur Hulst won a 40 man tournament with meandeck gifts getting 1st and 2nd place in Europe. 

I am getting reports of people performing very well with this all over the place. 

I am surprised to hear peter say he mulligans.  At origins I think I mulliganed once - it was becuase I didn't have a land in my hand and that was the only game I lost (I had no land in my first 3 mulligans that game). 

[Whatever Works]

@ Smennen

Not to take away from your deck at all... But umm... Koen Van dur Hulst wins with everything there... He won with dracoplosion so I am not incredibly impressed that a player of his high skill won a tournement with a solid deck in an incredibly unprepared metagame that from top 8 lists (which almost never change more then 1 card a year such as T1t) you can believe the area doesnt know how to metagame at all.

Also I would expect you to get some favorable reports, because I think everyone and there mother has tested at least a few games with this deck. However, I doubt the 15 people who crapped out of the tournement will give be sending you personal messages thanking you anytime soon.

However, I will thank you for having a little lightbulb click in my head. Yesterday, I went undefeated swiss without losing a single game against very respectable players (Jason Zheng, Mixing Mike, etc.).. With a 100% original deck featuring High Tide. I ended up losing extremely close games to Brassman (mulliganing both games though only 1 time previously entire tourney) in the Semi Finals even though game 1 he misdirected my early ancestral.

I will get an article on the deck soon if theres interest... I had several players ask for the list so hopfully I will get a chance. Unfortunetly, no meandeck gifts players from mykatogs tourney will be able to deliver you a great report, but I can thank you for providing a deck skeleton that when modified appropriatly can win consistent turn 2-3 through FoW's/Chalice for 0/Null rod, and look good doing it.

I played vs. meandeck gifts... and though tormod's crypt didnt end the game... The Extract for collosus did (because burning wish was in his yard at the time. Extract is huge vs. your deck. I cant say that ennough. The large # of people running them however I look at as a sign of respect for your deck that I feel is warented. There has been almost no fish in the last 3 new england tourneys of any relevant size. Its amazing how quick a metagame can turn.. First workshop aggro and now this... Fish is done... and pithing needle didnt help it much either.

[Smmenen]

Actually, that wasn't koen with dracoplosion.  That was rudy and that tournament was a joke tournament where everyone played a bad list.

And if your high tide list is even remotely similar to the Spring Tide (Not the reset variant)  list from legacy, I woudln't call that 100% original. 

[Whatever Works]

Actually, that wasn't koen with dracoplosion.  That was rudy and that tournament was a joke tournament where everyone played a bad list.

And if your high tide list is even remotely similar to the Spring Tide (Not the reset variant)  list from legacy, I woudln't call that 100% original. 

It is nothing, and I mean nothing like spring tide... The closest resemblance it has to any particular deck is your meandeck gifts list, but it is still a good 15+ cards different. However, it tries to abuse a very strong skeleton deck (with a few minor tweaks). If your curious about a list PM me.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

On CS vs Gifts-

I see this debate like the Tog vs. CS debate. Rich, your experience with CS will likely win you more games than CS should. In my experience, draw simply doesn't matter as much in this matchup. I've won counltess games where my opponent had more cards in hand than me. Also, I can't really see how LoA would be that spectacular. Gifts is a combo/control deck. When you drop turn 1 LoA, it means you won't have UU up for another 2 turns, meaning I don't have to play around drain. You say Gifts doesn't draw you cards. This is true, but it IS a source of card advantage. And when I gifts for MisD/FoW/Drain/Brainstorm, it's pretty hot. The deck isn't about drawing cards. It's about resolving gifts. Unless you have less than 5 mana on the board, there is no reason you shouldn't win on the spot when you resolve a gifts. Maybe I play the deck more aggressively than others, but this deck truly ABUSES gifts. Control Slaver can't afford to tap out on my end step to play thirst, because that taps them out and allows me to cast gifts with force back up. I can't stress how important pitch counters are. MisD isn't there to catch random Ancestrals and deep analyses. It's there to MAKE SURE your gifts resolves.

Also, again, I'd like to point out that pithing needle is a 1 mana answer to CS's engine (And an answer to all the hate that decks might bring in). Sure, you can't ride it alone to victory, but it's sure as hell strong. It means that postboard, I have no reservations about "winning small" and tinkering up a colossus. And even if you do somehow remove needle and weld my Colossus out, I still get atleast a +1 mana advantage and the tinker is already in my yard (making future gifts more busted; think will/recoup/lotus/walk or something to that extent).

Also, let me clear something up. When I say you win after resolving gifts, I mean when you're in the position to do so. Obviously you don't win off a gifts on turn 1 off a lotus.

For now, I'm done arguing about this topic. Clearly my playtesting differs greatly than others, and we can't seem to see eye to eye. I will continue to playtest and report back if anything differs.

-Bob

[darkchild]

Thanks for a great inventation, i piloted the deck to a first place finish yesterday and was very surprise at the number of mini combos in the deck.

I agree that this deck is pretty hard to hate out given that it has two maindeck bounce in terms of rebuild and echoing truth lets it bounce back chalice/null rod on the turn that it wants to go off.

The only change i made was playing 3 merchant scroll and 1 vamp in order to avoid too many dead cards at chalice for 2, which from testing is more than a pain in the ass than chalice for any number, does any one else get the same expierence from it?

On rootwater thief and extract, all I can comment is that by playing 'new' control and combo decks, we have narrowed the number of dead cards in terms of kill conditions to a minimum and in my opinion its the price to pay. To me, decks like CS (mostly 3 kill condition: 2 artifact creature and mindslaver), Tog (2 Togs, or 1 Tog and DSC), TPS (3 kill con: 2 Tendrils, 1 cunning wish) are all afraid of extract and rootwater thief so I dont think that by playing meandeck gifts really put you at any disadvantage. Further more, the sb cards of pyroclasm, reb, pyroblast and pithing needles should solve the problem pretty well.

I agree with Steve that gifts is always very situational and in the 8 rounds that i played yesterday, I often gifts for different combination of cards depending on the situation. Reflecting on some of my choices now, I feel that some of the choices were not opitimum and that I could have done better with the choices. Therefore, I can imagine season and hardcore players like Steve and Kevin doing so well with the deck as its really skill intensive and rewards players who know what to gifts for.

Another issue is that gift ungiven is that similar to Fact or Faction, its a small game in itself. It forces your opponent to make decision and the amount of players who do bad gifts splits (By giving you the 'wrong' cards) are no less than the amount of players who do bad Fact or Fiction splits (And from people who played in 4 Fact or Fiction days, or a lot during invasion will know that that is a big number).

Till the another meandeck creation comes along to bust this one, it looks like I will be playing this deck a lot at least in the near future, Cheers!

[Komatteru]

Ok, I want to know what all the fascination with Extract is all of a sudden.  I had never seen this card before ever until someone played it against me at Origins.  Yet, it's appeared on this thread multiple times.  Is it supposed to be good or something?  It doesn't seem good to me ("cute" is what I'd call it).  You need at least two of them to actually accomplish something, and it doesn't do anything about cards in hand.

[Smmenen]

The hardest gifts is the Gifts when you are getting another gifts and you have to figure out what your second gifts is going to be becuase you can figure out the exact 4 cards your going to get with your first gift.  That reminds me of DDay. 

[The Atog Lord]

To me, decks like CS ... are all afraid of extract and rootwater thief.

CS isn't nearly as vulnerable to this sort of thing as SSB and its variants, including Tendrils. I've come back from being hit by Jester's Cap in multiple tournament games. Once, I believe I was hit by two Caps, and the only way for me to win in my deck was to beat my opponent to death with the two remaining Goblin Welders. You can imagine how he died.

[Wollblad]

Some results from play testing, this time against TPS which is a very common deck in our meta game. I was running the version played by Thug in Leiden but without Gorilla Shaman and Rushing River, replacing them with a single Cunning Wish (Thug played 61 cards). That configuration has two Misdirection and one Mind Twist. And about 20 matches were played (without sideboard). Smmenen commented the Mind Twist by "seems like it would only help the matchups you are already good against". I must disagree, at least in this match-up. Misdirection was terrible with very few targets. Mind Twist, on the other hand, won me several matches all on its own. As it were now, the record was close to 50-50 but if Mind Twist would have been a Misdirection, it would have been more like 70-30 in favour to TPS, similar to results already reported earlier in this tread. I'm not sure about the Cunning Wish, but so far, a Echoing Truth would not have been better.

I would also like to comment on something that was discussed on the Vintage Forum regarding the optimal draw engine. In another play testing, I tried to replace one Gifts with a Skeletal Scrying lowering the mana curve a bit and making neat tricks like removing Time Walk with Scrying and Wishing for it possible. Whenever I draw it, however, a Gifts would have been better. Much because the deck usually operates on quite low life against aggro decks and that all pitch counters calls for many blue cards. If you have four gifts it is OK to remove one Gifts early. This also brings up the sideboard strategy. It is very tempting to sideboard out one Gifts, but I would not be doing so unless I also sideboard out all Misdirections, which happens only against aggro and Stax.

[Smmenen]

To me, decks like CS ... are all afraid of extract and rootwater thief.

CS isn't nearly as vulnerable to this sort of thing as SSB and its variants, including Tendrils. I've come back from being hit by Jester's Cap in multiple tournament games. Once, I believe I was hit by two Caps, and the only way for me to win in my deck was to beat my opponent to death with the two remaining Goblin Welders. You can imagine how he died.

I don't consider Meandeck Gifts vulnerable to extract at all.  Also against Rootwater theif - it can go at it for many turns - but if I've already resolved a single Gifts, it doesn't matter.  All that matter is that the B wish is either in hand or Gy.

[doylehancock]

Steve what is your opinion with Tendrils main?  Maybe droping the vamp tutor.  This would mean 3 kills (tendrils, DSC, and wish for tendrils). 

Also now that you have played the deck more and tested it in large tourneys what are you concerns with the deck?  What is one match up that you thought would be hard that turned out to be good?

thanks and once again great deck.

[Smmenen]

I think that having two win conditions is enough.  Having only one is dangerous, but two is fine.  I wouldn't want more conditional cards in the main either. 

[seer]

it seems to me that if we are going to cut a card for a maindeck echoing truth it should be a merchant scroll not a vampiric tutor. Am I wrong?