[T4]: Discussing the bombs

[Mixing Mike]

Well, here are the big "Auto-picks" in my stack, or cards that people bitch about all the time.....

Draw Insane Cards (Staff of Domination, Treasure Trove/Oath of Lim-Dul, Soothsaying)
Downright Nasty Critters (Nezumi Graverobber, Quanar (Unrestricted), Memenarch, Chainer)
Just Stuipid (Gleemax, Fist of Suns (Alt. CC everything), Blast from the Past)
Mutiple one-card Infini life spells/effects (W/W/W/W/W, Nourishing Shoal, Staff)
Mutiple Firebreathers (Cromat, Dragon's Breath, Avarax, Consumptive Goo, Cinder Shade, Leonin Sun Standard, Aggravated Assault, Greater Morphling)


I want to make the games last a bit longer, and perhaps that requires a power-ing down of the stack on the whole.  What of the above cards do you think are just too good?  You can find my stack (sans maybe 5-10 changes) onthe stack lists thread if you want more details.

[Jacob Orlove]

Personally, I'd run Gleemax, Chainer, Memnarch, and Soothsaying out of that list, but not any of the others. I <3 low power stacks, though.

[Nefarias]

We were having the same problem, and since we took out the Staff, Treasure Trove, and Oath of Lim-Dul it's a lot better. Greater Morphling is close, but just barely okay if you ask me. I think Leoinin Sun Standard and Aggravated Assault are actually really weak, and we've taken them out because they weren't good enough. The infiite lifes and firebreathers help even each other out (along with things like Captain's Maneuver, Agonizing Demise, Grab the Reins and Shining Shoal). Blast puts you in a great position to win, but it doesn't actually win, and is super-easy to counter. Fist is just plain fun, and unless it's combines with something that can constantly replenish the hand, can easily run out of gas. Graverobber's pushing it too, but it's actually a lot easier to play around then it seems at first glance. It still wins a whole lot, but you said that the intent is to make games longer, and Graverobber usually wins already lengthy games.

I think you'll pleased with just removing the infy drawers (we still use Aerial Caravan).

[Public Service]

The only cards I run out of the ones listed are Memnarch, Chainer, Blast from the Past and Gleemax. We like a relatively low powered stack (no firebreathers, no glarecaster) because we prefer attacking with big monsters over assembling a combo. I also recently took out Planar Portal and Mist Dragon.

[BurningIce]

The only one we use is Chainer.  But we probably would use Gleemax, but I have no Unhinged.  I find infinite effects take too much out of the T4 game.  Make the games too quick and it's less fun.  Bosh was in our cube for a while, but we took him out too, because with him and Corpse Dance, it's awful.

[Smmenen]

If you want the games to go long, I know how to make them go so long that the winner will probably end by decking despite having a 300+ card deck.

Do this:
STep one:
play EVERY SINGLE Wrath effect
Step two:
play every single non terrible removal spell
Step Three:
cut all the combo parts: Chainer, Nezumi, Bosh, Glarecaster, etc.

You do not need to cut stuff like Gleemax. 

[BurningIce]

Smmenen: Like I said, I'd add in a Gleemax if I have one, but I don't, since I don't have any Unhinged.  And I agree with you.  We try to filter out all the insta kills.  Chainer's not to bad without stuff like Bosh because he doesn't insta-kill by himself, and can be removed very easily.  So we play with him.

[rvs]

cut all the combo parts: Chainer, Nezumi, Bosh, Glarecaster, etc. 

Playing without Bosh is like taking a Bath with your socks on: Not a good thing to do!





I guess I just <3 Bosh.

[Smmenen]

I haven't touched my t4 in like a year becuase i just play with kevin's or paul mastrianos.

But I know that if I move away some day and i find a group that wants to play type four - I'm going to fundamentally redesign it to be about men.

The thing I found fun about t4 back in like 2001-2 was that hasty men were good. 

I want to tune my deck until Nical Bolas is good again and then cut cards to keep him good.  One problem I actualy may have caused is having too much removal.

let's face it - when you have a millino removal spells and a million awesome cards like Pentagram of Ages, Maze of Ith, etc - creatures blow.  They clog up your hand and non utilty creatures are terrible. 

I think I want to figure out how to tune the deck so that I feel good about drafting an elder Dragon.  That means a drastic revision of how type four should operate - but I think it will make it fun again. 

In order to make the format creature centric again, I think that utility creatures have to be cut down on and cards that make creatures really, really bad should be re-evaluated.  If that means having only a few wrath spells and a million fatties, so be it. 

I just hate combo t4 becuase it basically makes me want to draft the most insanely defensive deck ever and it is the most boring format ever.  I draft all counterspells, defense, and morphs/bombs and my objective is to play no spells until the late game.  no one attacks me if I am inconspicuous and quiet at the table and other people (Kevin *cough cough*) play lots of spells.  It's just sort of silly and a waste of time. 

I think there should be too objectives with regard to t4 design:

1) make it GOOD to play spells early
2) make fatties playable and good

If you can meet both those goals, I think the format will be alot of fun again.  But it will take a drastic approach to how we build t4 decks. 

[Matt]

Woo, new sig!

I saw some guy at the tournament yesterday had a T4 stack. I wanted to play but the store closed.

[Smmenen]

Well, am I wrong?  Shouldn't type four be more about men ?

[BurningIce]

It should... Although I'm really not sure how to make it that way.  In all my experience with T4, casting spells on your turn isn't really the way to go.  You're forcing yourself into bad situations, especially in a large game.

[Bram]

I played with Koen's stack yesterday and drafted [card]Common Courtesy[/card]. That card is insane card advantage. It's like a hardcast Decree of Silence that doesn't deplete.

<BR4M> you wouldn't believe how many people forget to ask, like, MULTIPLE times
<BR4M> and when they do catch on (after it stopped like 10 spells or so)
<BR4M> they start asking you permission for other stuff too
<BR4M> 'Can I please go to my attack step?'
<BR4M> You know, just to make sure, I guess.
<JDawg13> haha
<BR4M> The best part is when the guy who drafts & plays Common Courtesy plays his first spell
<BR4M> because 90% of the time, if it's not his stack, he'll forget to ask permission to himself
<BR4M> which he DOES need to do
<BR4M> it's awesome
<JDawg13> wow, that's so good
<BR4M> yup. and at the very worst, it's a regular one-shot hard counter since you can always refuse permission

[JDawg13]

Our Type 4 stack is pretty based around men swinging through the red zone, and it really doesn't any major changes in stack design either.  We just play as if Yet Another Aether Vortex is always in play.  It makes mass removal not quite as good, as odds are at least one or two opponents are just gonna flip up another dude to beat with the next turn anyway.  Permanent mass removal is still slightly annoying, but it wouldn't be hard to just take things like Fevered Convulsions to keep the flow of the games we play going more smoothly.  It also makes cards that normally wouldn't be playable in Type 4 really strong, like Brainstorm and Predict.  We also took out Nezumi and restricted Quanar to once per spell so as to cut down on combo wins.  If nothing else, it's a hell of a lot of fun, I highly recommend it.

[Jacob Orlove]

My T4 stack is all about the huge creatures, unless someone (and by someone I mean me) drafts the splice deck, and no one throws out one of the insane hosers.

If you really want to make it all about huge creatures, there's one key element you CANNOT neglect: life gain. If your lifegain (and damage prevention) is too good, then creatures will simply dominate. Random removal like Swords isn't going to change how good creatures are, but if there are only a few ways to raise your life total then creatures start to actually matter. If that 20 life is mostly just an irrelevant number, then creatures are also going to be irrelevant.

[rvs]

It should... Although I'm really not sure how to make it that way.  In all my experience with T4, casting spells on your turn isn't really the way to go.  You're forcing yourself into bad situations, especially in a large game.

You can also change the objective of the game from last man standing to whoever kills the most people wins. In case of a tie, obv the last man standing wins.

[Bronx]

I haven't touched my t4 in like a year becuase i just play with kevin's or paul mastrianos.

let's face it - when you have a millino removal spells and a million awesome cards like Pentagram of Ages, Maze of Ith, etc - creatures blow.  They clog up your hand and non utilty creatures are terrible. 

In order to make the format creature centric again, I think that utility creatures have to be cut down on and cards that make creatures really, really bad should be re-evaluated.  If that means having only a few wrath spells and a million fatties, so be it.

I agree.

Our problem is that just about every card type in T4 affects creatures. Damage prevention, wrath effects, spot removal, control magic, counterspells, they affect a fatty's ability to hit the board.

A probable solution would be to make it more of a rock, paper, scissors game rather than everything beats creatures. Instead of having a lot of really good versatile cards, it would be interesting to include more specialized ones. For instance, instead of playing with all Thwarts, Desert Twisters, and Vampiric Dragons, mix it up with Annuls, Blue Elemental Blasts, and Northern Paladins. Still include the versatile bombs, but limit them to where they are a first pick gem rather than one of ten in a card type category. Also, by including cards with more narrow uses, it decreases the game's power level, making you more comfortable to play a fatty during your turn.

The first problem that comes to mind is that there aren't enough Annuls and Red Blasts to fill a deck for multiple players. However, look through your old commons boxes, you'd be surprised how many one use, generally bad cards there are.

[Tons of Fun]

I've never had a problem with making creatures important. What I do is this:

1. Never let the amount of non-creature cards exceed the amount of creatures. There are far more creatures in my stack than answers to creatures.
2. Don't be afraid to put sub-optimal cards in there. For instance, many people would think something like Enormous Baloth is awful. In my stack, it's a threat like any other beater.
3. Put as many cards as possible in there, and only draft part of them. My stack has over 600 cards and it's still growing, but we just draft some set amount per player (generally 60). That way, it's always different. I have every possible sweeper, removal spell, and counterspell I can get in there, because the overall percentage of them is low.
4. Totally broken stuff is fine as long as you have enough ways to deal with it.