Oath Discussion: Questions on Oath's Innovation

[JamesPr]

I haven’t played in any SCGs tournaments, or many vintage tournaments for that matter, but, I have followed Oath on TMD and playtested my own builds of it for some time.

Ok, as most people know there are many, many different builds of Oath that have achieved top eights all over the world.  These include lists from using red as a third color, to black, to being basically mono blue builds with green for Oath, to even being a 3CC/4CC skeleton with the Oath combo in it.

What does this mean?  Originally, I thought that these myriad of Oath builds were the result of careful strategic metagaming, which they indeed have been to some extent, but has there also been a lack of desire to part from the meandeck U/G mold among many people?

I can’t say that there has been a lack of innovation, because, there has been innovation.  People have played TPS with the Oath engine sideboarded, people have played versions of Oath using Mindslaver in conjunction with Bringer of the White Dawn to endlessly slave their opponents.

The Team White Lotus Yawgmoth’s Will Oath build basically opened my eyes to the possibility that Oath decks maybe aren’t utilizing all the tools they have in store to be a more competitive deck.  Most people realize that when you Oath you typically don’t Oath away your entire library, so, why haven’t many people thought about the possibility of utilizing the graveyard in Oath decks, because many, many cards use the graveyard to powerful effect. 

I've been working with Oath builds for the past month or so that utilize the graveyard, with Yawgmoth's Will, and are typically built without a Gaea's Blessing maindeck at the very least.  Running a full compliment of three or even four creatures basically guarantees that you won’t get decked without a blessing anyway.   

So, what do you think?

[PacmanXSA]

What are you asking exactly?  Simply, is Yawg Win good in Oath?

If so, yes; if built properly

I really don't know what else you're trying to get at here.

Pac

[JamesPr]

I'm sorry, I'm bad at organizing concise ideas for topics, but, what I'm trying to get at is, is there enough Oath innovation going on?  Are people utilizing Oath to the best of it's abilities?  Also, is Gaea's Blessing even essential to Oath?  It's horrible when you draw it, and typically you don't need to recur your Oath creatures anyway.

[Sean Ryan]

I went 3-1 at a small tourney last weekend with my Neo Oath.  I reccomend reading TWLs article on SCG.  While  I don't advocate the Annuls, the black splash with C. Wish for Krosan Reclaimation is very good.  My only loss was to U/W Fish do to a game one muligan and game two play-mistake.  I will never run G. Blessing in my Oath again.  In the longer games you basically find Y. Will and then Oath with a full graveyard.  I'm also testing Regrowth in this build but, the list is already tight.  Anyway if you are interested I can PM you my list. 

Sean

[Astro]

Holistic Wisdom can be some good as well.  Also, I'm a fan of Crater Hellion.

[M]

It's true that for a long time (after the printing of Orchard) there was little to no innovation on Oath decks. Meandeck Oath was the reference point for most of the tweaking - adding Duress and replacing AK with Scrying and stuff like that didn't change the way the deck worked, like a traditional kontrol deck with a fast win condition. The Oath/Y.Will combo is also old, but failed to put up results. More recently there has been some innovation, and they do seem to focus on abusing the graveyard more, such as Oath/Salvagers. I have been playing my own version of that for some time now, using 2 or 3 Flash of Insight with some success. Krosan Reclamation + Y.Will is a good secondary win condition, but on its own it is probably too vulnerable to rely 100% on. But then one can always add Tinker/Colossus...

[xrizzo]

It's true that for a long time (after the printing of Orchard) there was little to no innovation on Oath decks. Meandeck Oath was the reference point for most of the tweaking - adding Duress and replacing AK with Scrying and stuff like that didn't change the way the deck worked, like a traditional kontrol deck with a fast win condition. The Oath/Y.Will combo is also old, but failed to put up results. More recently there has been some innovation, and they do seem to focus on abusing the graveyard more, such as Oath/Salvagers. I have been playing my own version of that for some time now, using 2 or 3 Flash of Insight with some success. Krosan Reclamation + Y.Will is a good secondary win condition, but on its own it is probably too vulnerable to rely 100% on. But then one can always add Tinker/Colossus...

The article at SCG is here for reference: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9815.html

The list presented there is 18 cards different from the standard Meandeck Oath build.    Call it what you like, but the list has evolved tremendously since it was debuted last fall. 

I went 3-1 at a small tourney last weekend with my Neo Oath.  I reccomend reading TWLs article on SCG.  While  I don't advocate the Annuls, the black splash with C. Wish for Krosan Reclaimation is very good.  My only loss was to U/W Fish do to a game one muligan and game two play-mistake.  I will never run G. Blessing in my Oath again.  In the longer games you basically find Y. Will and then Oath with a full graveyard.  I'm also testing Regrowth in this build but, the list is already tight.  Anyway if you are interested I can PM you my list.

Glad to hear you did well.  Can you PM me the list your ran?  I would be very interested in seeing what you did differently and why.  As for not advocating Annul, that is okay, it is a metagame call.  The beauty is that you can modify that spot to be whatever works best in your meta without really changing the whole deck skeleton. 

@JamesPtr
As far as Oath innovation, I think the deck has been taken a fair number of ways since the printed of Forbidden Orchard.  Look at all the things that have been at least tried:
monoU kontrol
Blue/Black combo control
Blue/Black control
Salvagers single turn combo
Krosan + Yawg delicate combo
Chalice/furnace/thirst oath
other smaller less successful versions

For a single card concept, this is a fair amount of innovation and testing.  In my biased opinion, the TWL build explores a number of some of these newer uses and interactions that were previously under-utilized.  What are you hoping the deck will be able to do in the future that it doesn't do now?

[Shade]

I really find the Bringer version that recurs Mindslaver interesting.  My only major concern with it is speed, especially in an unpowered build.

How well does Will function in a budget version of the deck?  I'm not sure that I would be able to manipulate the graveyard enough to make it more than a "win more" card.

Has anyone considered a 4-5 color variant?  With white, you gain Balance and StP, and red provides REB, Rack and Ruin, and Fire/Ice.

[erictehfatz0r]

I think the original Meandeck Oath has it right with the GAMEPLAN, just I think people can choose better creatures for the job. Crater Hellion is really strong against Fish and Juggernauts, while dying at the next upkeep so you can get another oath to resolve.

It's all about changing the creatures around in my mind, and I think that would be the key to it's success.

[THEBIGLOU]

Crater Hellion kills all your opponents tokens as well allowing them to Oath on their turn.  It could be Tinker/Darksteel for free...

Has anyone give thought aboutthe Tog in an Oath deck?  C.Wish for the Berserk or other kill card after Oathing w/ a Fat Graveyard ...Game over.

THEBIGLOU

[49 Cents]

Crater Hellion kills all your opponents tokens as well allowing them to Oath on their turn.  It could be Tinker/Darksteel for free...

Has anyone give thought aboutthe Tog in an Oath deck?  C.Wish for the Berserk or other kill card after Oathing w/ a Fat Graveyard ...Game over.

THEBIGLOU

The problem with this is that in Tog they will only cast it after gaining complete control, and with oath, you can oath up a Tog but chances are bigger they will have a way to deal with it. Why not simply play the Angels (Pristine & Friend) maindeck?

Greetz,

Hugo

[Mark_Story]

I've been doing some testing with crater hellion and the problem with him is that unless you give your opponent two tokens, before your next upkeep you can't oath again.  As the hellion prevents the oath from ever triggering, as the echo ability and oath check trigger happen at the same time.  However, wiping the board of men is quite entertaining and devastating for your opponent's board position.

[HuntedWumpus]

The problem I have with the TWL build, and we have talked this over many times in person, is that IMO if you are Oathing the game is generally over and Yawg will becomes an "win more" condition that not needed.

As far as innovation goes, one of the reasons we aren't seeing much is because Oath is a fairly rigidly structured deck with respect to its game plan, a fairly basic game plan. I have played several versions extensively, and would say that currently the most innovative build that I consider a good choice would be a furnace/chalice  option. For reference . . .

Furnace Oath

4 Oath of Druids
1 Gaea’s Blessing
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Ancient Hydra
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Misdirection
3 Mana Leak
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Phyrexian Furnace
1 Time Walk

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard

Sideboard:
1 Iridescent Angel
1 Pristine Angel
1 Platinum Angel
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Energy Flux
3 Ground Seal

*sorry about the funky board I build it 5 mins before the first round, but it worked well.

Speaking from experience on both sides of the table, furnace is a lot better in the format then it appears externally. It vastly improves the CS match, obviously, and helps to neuter all welders, intuition-ak, TFK's graveyard setup, yawg . . . and so on. Combine with the potential for chalice, the deck packs more THREATS than other oath lists. The additional non-oath threats are nice because they are added early problems that many opponents cannot leave unchecked. Hence adding to the ease of successfully casting oath. Finally Thirst is a very eloquent engine, at a reasonable rate. I like TFK and scrying equally in oath but if I was forced to choose it would go with TFK, and this build allows for that.

On no SOTN; Yes, that hurt me several times and it might need to dwell in the board, and I apologize for the lack of an update. However Ancient Hydra must reside in all oath builds either MD or in the side, IMO. Taking into account the new rush of fish he is now simply to good and versatile not to have.

I am actually curious to TWL's thoughts on furnace/chalice builds. I have basically stopped efforts on Oath in favor of the ever
resilient tog.

[exit music]

Has anyone considered a 4-5 color variant?  With white, you gain Balance and StP, and red provides REB, Rack and Ruin, and Fire/Ice.

Yes, they have. Here are a few really good posts:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=20860.0 (dicemanx's primer on 5cc Oath)
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=20783.0  (outlaw's take on 4cc Oath)

[Killertree]

I love playing Salvager Oath.  I love it when people use meddling mage because I have alot of things to stop it. balance, pyrate spellbomb, and Aether spellbomb.

[JamesPr]

I guess there has been quite a bit of innovation, I've been working with a lot of wacky oath builds recently, so I may of dejected the idea of classic Oath builds. 

For some reason I just have never found a draw engine I thought was really that good, that I liked, that could keep up with all the stuff people throw at you.  It's almost like if your entire deck is built around abusing your draw engine like a control slaver, or a gifts deck, standard Oath will not have as strong of a chance.

I'm just throwing this idea out here, but would the scroll ancestral draw engine have any place in Oath?  You would have to play a couple Misdirections definitely to support it, and, typically, if you don't play Mana Leak you can't counter something first turn with just a mox and an island anyway.

[M]

I'm just throwing this idea out here, but would the scroll ancestral draw engine have any place in Oath?

Sure. In my experience Merchant Scroll fits very well in Oath because the deck takes the active role very early (it must be able to protect an early Oath anyway). The following is typical: Turn 1 land, mox, Merchant Scroll. Turn 2 land, Ancestral Recall + Oath. The Ancestral will often either get you the Oath you need, the counter you need, or it will act as 'bait' for the opponent's counter before dropping the Oath.

However, Scroll + Ancestral isn't a "draw engine" unless you figure out a way to play Ancestral more than once in every game. There are basically two ways to do this: One is graveyard recursion, using for example multiple Gaea's Blessings. The other way is to RFG the Ancestral (using for example Yawgmoth's Will or Phyrexian Furnace), and then fetch it with Cunning Wish.

My current Oath Salvagers build uses Merchant Scroll, Ancestral Recall, Flash of Insight, Cunning Wish, Brainstorm, Demonic Tutor, Krosan Reclamation, and Yawgmoth's Will.

[the boogie man]

That might be a stellar idea, replacing 3 intuition/4 AK/1 cunning wish  with 2 intuition/4 AK/ 1 cunning wish/x scrolls. I also promote removing the ancient hydra in the sideboard for a crater hellion, and removing platz for anything, because she is much more of a win more card than anything.

   one other thing that I was pondering was removing spirit of the night for tinker collossus, which basically is oath #5 that isn't dead to mages/ray of revelation/ cool stuff like that.

[exit music]

Now I'm no expert on Oath, but in a field with such aggressive and fast Mana Drain decks, I really don't think tapping out early game for Merchant Scroll is a good plan at all. I will agree that Oath's current draw Engine sucks, but I'm pretty sure that Merchant Scroll > Ancestral is a terrible idea as well.

[virtual]

I am actually curious to TWL's thoughts on furnace/chalice builds. I have basically stopped efforts on Oath in favor of the ever
resilient tog.

In general, when testing the furnace/Chalice builds, we found a few things. 

#1, it was better than most of the other builds that we had tested. 
#2, it flat out rolled to a resolved chalice for 2
#3, it didn't have any significant upside to the TWL build... the worst matchups didn't improve significantly (UW fish), CS was slightly improved by the chalices, but the variations in the winning matchups didn't change significantly enough to matter. 

Oath is a solid win condition.  It used to have 2 drawbacks:  #1 they had to have a creature, #2 it takes >1 turn to kill.  Now it only has 1 draw back.  People can come up with any slew of good->bad builds and given the inherit strength of 4x oath of druids, enough power, and forces, you can steal games, and power wins through others. 

The interesting thing about oath is that it's fairly difficult to really innovate further with it.  As you shift your build to use the graveyard more, graveyard hate becomes another thing that you don't want to see/that can kill you.

The goal of oath pretty naturally falls into the agressive role.  4 of your lands hurt worse than a city of brass if you don't win the turn after you use them. 

I've had my fun with oath for now.  Pretty much, now I just get frustrated at the games that it can steal turn 1. I write those off, and I consider if I have enough to stall it out while I win before it.  I don't think I'll be turning TWL oath much further until we see a dramatic metagame shift.  I'm not afraid to dust it off and bring it to tournaments if I feel its the right choice, but at least with beatdown creatures, and running duress, I think the TWL build is about as tight of a list as you can find. 

-Virtual

[HuntedWumpus]

#1, it was better than most of the other builds that we had tested. 
#2, it flat out rolled to a resolved chalice for 2

Thats pretty much how I feel about that build. I think there is a lot of potential in furnace/chalice; it really helps the deck play control if need be and ensure that entering the late game will not usually result in a loss, as it does with some oath builds.

[Sorre5]

whats about chalis oath is that good now in the metagame?

[the boogie man]

I have been testing scroll-> ancestral in oath and loving it. here is a basic list:

4 oath of druids
1 akroma
1 spirit

4 mana drain
4 force of will
3 misdirection

4 brainstorm
4 accumulated knowledge
3 merchant scroll
2 intuition
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 cunning wish

4 forbidden orchard
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
1 strip mine
3 wasteland
2 underground sea
1 tropical island
2 island
1 snow-covered island

1 black lotus
1 mox sapphire
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby
1 lotus petal

sb:
1 crater hellion
1 pristine angel
3 chalice of the void
1 engineered explosives
2 pithing needle
1 duress
2 energy flux
1 coffin purge
1 rushing river
1 fact or fiction
1 naturalize

i'll explain some card choices. the chalices in the side replace arcane labs and ground seals, being really good against gifts, control slaver, and storm combo. while not completly hosing them out, it slows them down a ton.

engineered explosives (maybe replace with p.diddy) is there to create card parity with fish and stax.

coffin purge is a great versatile wish target.

pithing needle is in there vs. fish, getting rid of problem cards like mongrel, vial, and jitte.

[Khahan]

What about long term plans?
2U Instant
Search your library for a card. Shuffle your library then put that card 3rd from the top

Whats bad about it? 3cc.  At that point, I would rather have an intuition. But many people looking for more card draw already run intuitions anyway.

Whats good about it? Its a blue demonic. With all the library manipulation/draw that is in Oath  is putting a card 3 from the top really a drawback?  Unlike Mystical, it can get orchard or Oath or stack a creature for your oath trigger. 

Many Oath builds these days run 3 creatures: Akroma, Hydra and either spirit/plat/iridescent.
You can plan out the appropriate creature: Vs FCG you grab plat and sit back (most builds in my area at least can't deal with plat).
If welder is on the board, grab the hydra.

If you have recall, brainstorm or top, 3 cards down is as accessible as 1 card down.  Its a card in hand.

Now, I'm not convinced of this myself. But it certainly <i>seems</i> a viable alternative.
I'm going to do some play testing with it and see how it turns out.

This just seems like a card that may actually benefit in an Oath build. I can't think of many other decks in T1, tier 1 or otherwise, that this card might be useful in.

[jackpot]

Here's an idea I had in a flash of inspiration:

Static Oath:

4 Oath of Druids
1 Gaea’s Blessing
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Trixellion
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
4 Static orb
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Phyrexian Furnace
1 relic barrier
1 Time Walk

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard

Static Orb is great under an Oath. Especially when your guys don't have to tap to deal damage. The relic barrier can tap the orb and lock out your opponent it should be noted. There should probably  be a gifts ungiven in here. Or at least intuition. If I only had the $$$....

[the boogie man]

I highly doubt that static orb is viable, because early game, your oponent will not have that many permanents out anyway, and if they do, you should be winning because they have probably been dropping creatures. and as the game progresses, you can conserve tapping lands to save up. It just seems like it does not create enough of a hard lock to justify running it over other "better" cards in the deck.

with that being said, I am presenting you with a build that I have been playing for a while. I took this deck to a local tournament (10 proxie) and going 4-1, splitting for the finals. but it was a weird tier thing. whatever. At least it wasn't in vermont. the deck I played were (in no particular order) WU/tang fish, stax w/lodestone myr and time vault, affinity, mono black (which I almost lost to), and that may be it. but here is the list;

Oath;

engine:7

1 akroma
1 spirit of the night
4 oath of druids
1 (foreign) gaeas blessing

Manas:24

4 forbidden orchard
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
1 tropical island
1 underground sea
2 island
2 snow-covered island
1 strip mine
3 wasteland

1 black lotus
3 on color moxen
1 mox ruby
1 lotus petal

draw:18

4 brainstorm
4 Ak
3 merchant scroll
2 intuition
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 cunning wish

counters:11

4 force of will
4 mana drain
3 misdirection

side board:15

1 pristine angel
1 crater hellion/ancient hydra
1 engineered explosives
2 energy flux
3 chalice of the void
2 pithing needle
1 rebuild
1 rushing river
1 coffin purge
1 duress
1 fact or fiction

I know that I posted a build similar to this not too long ago, but I think that it could be brought up again and explained.

one of the reasons that I picked the intuition->Ak engine over the tfk one is 1): It is far more explosive, allowing quick access to the fourth ak very quickly with the addition of merchant scroll. and 2): I don't like tfk in a deck with no fatties to discard and weld in. IDK why.

the misdirections are great, because they allow for turn one counter wars against oposing decks, since now you have 7 pitch counters. it also furthers the aggro oath strategy, easily detering oposing countermagic and removal.

along with the inclusion of mis-d, the scrolls have been wonderful. more often than not, I find myself opting to scroll turn one for a force, or if I'm lucky, a mana drain, rather than the super fast ancestral.

now on to the side. I have no idea what to put in the side as far as ancient hydra vs. crater hellion. I think that I wil kepp the hellion in, just because If i do run into a deck that will oath up somethin big too, I can just burn a mana with orchard and let them not oath. the really only reason that I run the hellion is because it completely decimates the board positions, especially against fish, but it is even decent against CS, blowing up welders, platz, and can occasionally catch a pentavus off-guard.

another thing that you may have noticed is the lack of arcane labs in the side, which is due to the super cool amount of chalices in the side instead. the reason I opted for the chlices is that they are excellent against a lot of decks. here are some of the deck that I bring them in against: ws aggro(20, CS (3), Gifts(3), stax(2), and combo (3). the reason that I don't have them maindeck is because they are generally boarded in after everything else, with me just taking out whatever isn't needed in that matchup, but is needed in the maindeck.

one thing that I am unsure of, though, are the pithing needles. I don't know if they do enough. sure, they come in against bazaar, but I have 4 maindeck strip effects, plus ! am not all that susceptible to titan, and the mi-d's can turn an animate dead into yet another wimpy 1/1 goblin that sits around and gets beat on. and against CS, I could just add one or two more engineered explosives, which is also really, really awsome against fish, which is yet another big reason for the needles. explosives handles them very nicely. plus, it is another free permanent against stax which could really uneven the permanent count.
so in he near future I could see nyself going -2 pithing needle, +1 EE, + 1 ?

what could go here? for  a whlie, I thought that sundering titan could go there, but if you oath against control, you should have won already. any suggestions? I know that this post is long and kind of disjointed, but it is 12:18 in the morning, so any help would be much appreciated.

[jackpot]

I wouldn't write off Static Orb just because Miss-direction can sometimes allow for cooler plays. Yes, getting to ancectral yourself off your opponents' ancestral IS very cool, I'm not going to argue that. Against the Oath mirror, a Static orb will catch them very off gaurd. Another card that has got me thinking about using the Orb with Oath is Aboshan, Chephalid emperor. Tap him and then tap your Orb. This was used a couple years ago when the Miracle Grow decks were playing Winter orb and oath needed an answer. Also for UUU you can tap all creatures without flying. That's a nice trick. It's too bad its not a 4/4, but what can you do? The Blinkmoth well is there to shut off the orb as well. It is also a nice way to tap your opponents artifacts as well. OK let's compromise:

engine:8

1 akroma
1 Aboshan
1 Spirit of the night
4 oath of druids
1 (foreign) gaeas blessing

Mana:24

4 forbidden orchard
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
1 tropical island
1 underground sea
2 island
2 snow-covered island
1 strip mine
2 wasteland
1 Blinkmoth well

1 black lotus
3 on color moxen
1 mox ruby
3 Static Orb
draw:18

4 brainstorm
4 Ak
1 merchant scroll
2 intuition
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 cunning wish

counters:11

4 force of will
4 mana drain
3 misdirection

Let's face it, if you can get the Aboshan/Static orb thing going your opponent is going to be seriously screwed. You've sold me on the 3 Miss Directions. 3 Merchant scrolls seemed excessive, but what isn't in T1? Anyways, think about it.

[crazzykid81083]

Heres my input
Graveyard utilization GOOD
BUT WHAT IF
oath throws the will in the graveyard
will gets countered
In my opinion build around the graveyard, and build in the incase shit happens
REGROWTH
1-GAEAS BLESSING

[the boogie man]

I just don't know if static orb is worth it even if you get going, even if aboshan is out. the tap ability is relatively useless, unless they have one big creature. and if they do have a big guy, either akroma or spirit is much better against big guys (sans collossus), and if it is collossus, they should have enough protection/time walk turns to completely negate your aboshan. and if they don't, spirit+ akroma races him anyway. I just think that aboshan is kind of a waste of space.

 Â  and static orb: it seem like a win more card.

[jackpot]

Aboshan vs. colossus? UUU tap all creatures without flying. OK, then they time walk and attack again. Tap colossus with aboshan by simply tapping aboshan. No big deal. Isn't the point of the game to "Win more"? If you can make the opponent play YOUR GAME instead of you playing theirs, then you should win. I understand the post-win syndrome concept of having your primary win condition out and then playing an unnecessary card that's not needed at that point.   You could argue that Oath costs 2 and static orb is 3, so it's overkill. But what if you don't draw oath? I'd like to point out how almost all of the other T1 decks would prefer to be untapping all their permanents instead of 2 a turn. Drain slaver and the like are mana intensive to say the least. Keeper will just lose w/o their mana. I'm sure they'd not want a static orb out. Weenie decks won't be able to swarm you. You could be especially vicious and throw in a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and give the weenie creature opponent fits. Probably not.