The Magic Hall of Fame: Do you Care?

[Bardo]

When I was writing my response in Machinus' 'Who's your favorite mtg.com writer?' thread, it occured to me how much bandwidth is currently being devoted to discussions on the Magic Pro Tour Hall of Fame.

And then I realized that all of the people who are writing, debating, and arguing about their ballots obviously care about M:tG and the Pro Tour far more than me. And, moreover, they have some stake in the outcome of the selection process. But do people who don't write about, or who haven't otherwise invested a significant portion of their life into the personalities of the game really care?

What's your opinion? Is the Hall of Fame relevant to the Magic playing population at large?

(edit - Thanks Jacob).

[Meanee]

I really don't think a Hall of fame would matter anything. First of, we all know who's the famous mtg'ers. Second, I hate pointed out elites...

We already have a hall of fame, it is just not typed on a piece of paper yet, it is in people's minds, which I think is the correct way to do this...

- meanee

[BurningIce]

I think it's an interesting concept.  Like all sports, it gives someone a goal to inspire towards.  While people might know who the best are these days, someone learning the game say now, might have no idea who Jon Finkel is for example. 

It also gives new players a list of the greats to look up on, find out about, etc.

[Lofobal]

A point seemingly ignored by the majority of debaters of the Hall of Fame is that members will be invited to future Pro Tours and, further, paid to attend them. This is the major reason for the controversy surrounding the nomination of Mike Long. The idea is to encourage incredible players who have, more or less, stopped playing in recent years to return to the game.
The Hall of Fame is not about making a bunch of random ex-Magic players more famous; it's about convincing former icons to return to the game. It's not just recognition, there's also a fairly large monetary incentive to the Hall of Fame members.

[Bardo]

The Hall of Fame is not about making a bunch of random ex-Magic players more famous; it's about convincing former icons to return to the game. It's not just recognition, there's also a fairly large monetary incentive to the Hall of Fame members.

But do you care? That is the point of this thread.

[Joblin Velder]

I think it's pretty cool. I know from personal experience how much Kastle and Dougherty did to earn their status. They deserve a liitle of the ol' geek immortality.

[Ender]

I could honestly care less who gets voted into the HoF...

Except for Mike Long...

[xrizzo]

I could honestly care less who gets voted into the HoF...

So if you couldn't care less, then you care some non-zero amount? 

I personally have NO interest.  It doesn't affect a part of magic I have even been in touch with...

[Lofobal]

The Hall of Fame is not about making a bunch of random ex-Magic players more famous; it's about convincing former icons to return to the game. It's not just recognition, there's also a fairly large monetary incentive to the Hall of Fame members.

But do you care? That is the point of this thread.

To clarify, my comments were somewhat directed at those who feel as Meanee does.

I really don't think a Hall of fame would matter anything. First of, we all know who's the famous mtg'ers. Second, I hate pointed out elites. We already have a hall of fame, it is just not typed on a piece of paper yet, it is in people's minds, which I think is the correct way to do this.

As for the Hall of Fame itself, I feel it will be good for the game to some degree, and for that reason I support it. To answer your question, yes, I care, particularly about the Mike Long issue.

[Cab]

If Mike Long gets in, then yes I care. If not, then no, I don't.

If you cheat to WIN a match, then you shouldn't get into any Hall of Fame, period.

[Matt]

If Mike Long gets in, then yes I care. If not, then no, I don't.

If you cheat to WIN a match, then you shouldn't get into any Hall of Fame, period.

That's kind of funny, because you're the best argument FOR including him: he makes people care.

[dandan]

I have no problem with Long being in the Hall of Fame and as for the invites, as long as when he is caught cheating his fees are withheld I can't see a problem. Just give him a decklist sheet with additional headings for lap, sleeves, etc.

Long is the Vader of Magic. Face it guys, Luke was boring. Hans Solo was a bit bad so he got to shag a princess (think the Jabba the hut scene for 'royal' costume ideas). Justice is Hans, Long is Vader. Who is Luke? I don't care.......

Matt is right, Long should be there to stir the shit.

[Jacob Orlove]

Aside: it's the Pro Tour Hall of Fame, not the Magic Hall of Fame.

With that said, I do care, because I remember reading about the exploits of all those players throughout the years.

Also, I definitely don't think Long should get in, because the Hall is about rewarding those players who have made positive contribuitions to the game--and Long's contributions were hardly positive.

[dandan]

He helped get Burning Wish restricted. That's positive.
And he invented lap-top cards long before MTGO made it onto laptops.
And he made Fish worse by giving them an creature that didn't do much so that Fish players didn't notice that other colours had better creatures.

And most of all he woke us up to the fact that some Magic players are scum and not as nice as us. Remember reading about that Japanese guy who won a tournament then went back and reported himself as he discovered his deck was illegal (wrong pump-knights or something like that)? I remember playing and feeling guilty about cutting an opponent's deck as if that somehow implied that he might be cheating. Welcome to the real world! After Long everyone knew cheats were out there. And cheating became much much more difficult to get away with. Mike Long is responsible for the biggest reduction in cheating ever.

And remember that email 'breaking' Skullclamp and one other card that I still can't figure out in Vintage. What a joker!

So improving the B&R list, creating the in-lap zone, weakening Fish for over a year, causing a reduction in cheating and being a funny, funny guy....... Surely that's enough to make the Pro-tour Hall of Fame?

[jcb193]

I think Long has made a positive influence on Magic.  He was very entertaining.  He was a VERY good player.  He lightened up the atmosphere and he mastered an element of Magic that was rare at that time- mind games.

When magic first started, it was a bunch of mal-adjusted kids finally excited about being able to play with Unicorns and Elves.  Other were excited about having "portable D&D."  Still others finally got an element of self-esteem because they had more expensive cards (or in the rare case, were better players/deck constructors.

Mike Long brought competition to a very HIGH and COMPETITIVE point, showed that people could be consistently good, and brought forth extra elements to the game (albeit cheating, as well as head games).  Before Mike, most people just played the cards they had in their hand and disregarded their opponent. 

Lots of people cheated in Magic.  Lots.  And there are plenty of gray areas in Magic too (teammates in a final 8 rochestering, and setting up one player)(draft signals)(scouting).  All of these were problems in Magic too.

Nick Eisel is a beloved writer for SCG, and his transgressions were worse. 

Mike was entertaining.  Mike was newsworthy.  Mike was funny and a definite dick.  Mike was a great player. 

That said, i wish Maro would have made a better defense of Mike Long.  Mike deserves to be in the Hall of Fame for his playskill alone.....nevermind all the antics. 

[Moxlotus]

The thing is Mike wouldn't have done nearly as well in several events if it wasn't for his cheating.  His need to cheat makes it seem to me that he wasn't good at Magic.  If he was that damn good, why would he need to cheat.

Also I agree with Orlove, I would be pissed if he got rewarded for cheating.  How would you feel if you won a random PTQ, and did very well and are a match away from Top 8 and got paired against Long (Hall qualifies him) and then he cheats.  You got cheated because he got into the hall.

Cheating=bad.  We shouldn't reward those who cheat-especially the number of times Long has.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Mike Long is a fucking plague to Magic.

On EVERY POSSIBLE MINISCULE MINOR FACET to the game he has never ONCE done anything positive or something a normal person would be ashamed.

In the area of magic playing, he is notorious for being a cheater.  He has been caught cheating on camera mulitple times.  He has cheated countless people in the pro tour and @ ptq's with his various forms of cheating from deckstacking, SB hacking, SB throwing, running FUCKING MORE THEN FOUR CARDS IN YOUR DECK, and so on.  He has cut every single thread of morality that exists in not only this game, but in life. 

One of the greated misconceptions of Mike Long is that he cheats to win.  This is totally untrue.  He cheats for the sake of cheating.  Whether at the top tables of the Pro Tour or in a casual game against a 14yr old he will do anything possible to win, its more of a pyschalogical disorder.

People argue that he is acting like other strategy websites when he includes his crappy self help and deck tech bullshit add ons to his ebay auctions.  They compare it to SCG selling singles or wizard trying to move product.  The difference is that Mike Long lies to sell his product.  He freewrites off the top of his head and doesn't put an honest effort into his "lessons".  His ideas are truly untested and nothing he says is completley accurate.

He is probably understood to be the worst human being that any magic player has ever encountered.  He is a plague and a stain and if this so called hall of fame hopes to achieve any understanding of legitmacy, intregraty, or anything else voting mike long to it would compleltely destroy the concept and cement this hall of fame as worthless forever in the minds of magic players.

[Matt]

I think once I bought an Armageddon from him on ebay. I could be wrong though.

[dandan]

Excuse me for misunderstanding but isn't a Hall of Fame all about fame? Hitler was famous, so was Stalin. Not nice people [/understatement]

Mike Long has fame in Magic.

Wizards 'long' for attention for the Pro-tour and this Hall of Fame. Long gets our attention.

[Moxlotus]

But integrity and sportsmanship were 2 of the 5 characteristics on how to judge the nominees.  I can't even describe the level that Long fails on these qualities.

[Klep]

I care about the Hall of Fame to the extent that I think it's good for the game in general and adds legitimacy to it as a competetive.....thing (my vocabulary is better when it isn't 3AM).

As for Long.

I consider integrity to be by far the most important attribute to be examined when considering candidates.  Whether that is its purpose or not, people are going to look at the Hall of Fame to see examples of the best competetors this game has to offer.  If we induct someone who is best known for being a terrible person, what message does that send the outside world?  What does it say about us if we put the very nadir of our community up on a pedastal? 

[Nightfall]

While Mark Justice was never suspended, I believe there were quite a few reports of him cheating.  Bob Maher, the Great One, was suspended.  I think they both deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.  Bob Maher is probably the third best player to ever play the game.  Skill-wise, I would say Long is top three on this ballot.  He cheated, but so did a lot of the players in the early days.  He isn't a very likeable guy, but so are a lot of guys in the baseball hall of fame.

If I had a vote, I would have voted for Mike until I read what his response was to BDMs questionaire.  That just showed that he didn't care, so don't give it to him.

Otherwise, my list would be:

Finkel
Kastle
Justice
Rade
Dougherty

With Humpherys being the unlucky sixth man.

[erictehfatz0r]

Here's a more in-depth query based on everyone's negative opinions of Mike Long:

Why vote for Bob Maher, who has been suspended for cheating? Why hold this double standard against a very skillful player? It just doesn't seem fair that one person suspended for cheating can get into the Hall of Fame, while the other person isn't. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass who gets in, just make it fair.

[Nazdakka]

Here's a more in-depth query based on everyone's negative opinions of Mike Long:

Why vote for Bob Maher, who has been suspended for cheating? Why hold this double standard against a very skillful player? It just doesn't seem fair that one person suspended for cheating can get into the Hall of Fame, while the other person isn't. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass who gets in, just make it fair.

There is a big difference between Long and Maher. Long was/is a habitual cheat with a long record (further reading) while Maher retroactively blew the whistle on tournament fraud that he had benefitted from several years before. Maher has an excellent name on the Tour, Long has an awful one. The point is that few people are saying that a suspension for cheating hould be an automatic disqualification from the Hall, but they are saying that Long was such a serious case that he should not be in there.

[Godder]

Bob Maher was suspended for ratings fraud, and was the one who brought said fraud to light. While ratings fraud is bad, since it allowed him to qualify for the Pro Tour much earlier and easier than he otherwise might have (hard to say how much earlier/easier, though), he did perform to a high level on the tour for years legitimately.

Long, on the other hand, cheated when playing, which is quite different. That's not to say that Maher's offence should be glossed over, though, but on the Pro Tour itself, he performed admirably.

[jcb193]

Cheating is cheating.  Both used glitches in the system to gain an advantage over their opponents.  You can't gauge cheating, because the only information you have is the times they were caught.  I don't see how anyone can say they are only "trying to uphold the moral level" when it is so unabashedly anti-Long rhetoric. 

Maher's cheating is okay and Long's isn't?  Ridiculous. 

[Matt]

Maher also turned himself in. That counts for a lot. Not all cheating is alike, and Maher and Long differ both in quantity of offense and also in kind.

[Jacob Orlove]

Maher not only turned himself in waaay after the ratings fraud had occurred, but he also apologized for it. They would not have known about his cheating if he hadn't chosen to change, and do the right thing later. Don't forget, Maher was pretty young at the time of that fraud, and there were several older players involved too.

Long, meanwhile, has never apologized, never admitted to anything, and he NEVER STOPPED CHEATING.

Sure, one instance of cheating is the same as any other instance of cheating. But cheating once and then apologizing as you turn yourself in years later is a far cry from endless, unapologietic cheats. Maher's attitude and integrity passes with flying colors, and he's a player I'd be happy to see rewarded for his achievements. Long continues to be scum.

[BurningIce]

I think once I bought an Armageddon from him on ebay. I could be wrong though.

I know I bought a Time Vault from him on ebay once... and it was advertised that it had water damage on it, only it didn't.  So on that front, I have no problem with Long. 

[Yare]

I see that you guys have opinions on Mike Long, but can anybody give a comprehensive, objective list of what this guy has done, legitimate and otherwise?  Meaning, specific instances where he cheated in such and such way, built such and such deck, etc.  Thanks.

Regarding the Pro Tour Hall of Fame, it is a means to an end by WotC.  They think it will benefit them, so it exists.  If they didn't believe it was good for them, it would not exist.  That's the long (no implication there) and the short of it.

Personally, I don't really care for it.