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Author Topic: How Meandeck Tendrils deals with Force of Will  (Read 3289 times)
Mr.Morphling
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« on: July 11, 2005, 11:04:41 am »

  Hello, this is my first time to themanadrain however ive been playing vintage for a while.  Its nice to see a whole community get together just to talk about vintage magic.  Anyway, Ive been playing this list of meandeck tendrils (close to Chris Stuller's list) and it is very consistant.  It goes off most of the time turn 1 or 2 no question.  The list was designed for speed.  Now the problem I am having is the first turn force of will or fish's daze.  They ususally neuter my land grant so the rest of my turns are, well, non-adventerous you could say.  Well heres my list and anyhelp into making the deck more consistant agains force of Will would be great. (btw I had an idea of putting unmasks in but im not sure.)Thanx

Main
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Wooded Foothills

4 Slight of Hand
4 Night's Whisper
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Necropotence
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Land Grant
1 Chrome Mox
3 Spoils of the Vault
2 Darkwater Egg
4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Lotus Pedal
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Ancestral Recal
1 Black Lotus
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mana Vault
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mana Crypt

Sideboard
1 Bayou
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
1 Chain of vapor
3 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Doomsday
1 Brainfreeze

Thank you
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silencebringer
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2005, 11:47:16 am »

If the deck had a consistant solid answer to your question... there wouldn't be a reason to play anything else. But it doesn't.
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Luiggi
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2005, 11:49:02 am »

Not only that, but it has to deal with all kinds of other hate cards, like Arcane Lab, Chalices, etc. What I found from playing the deck is that it goldfishes great, but when put up against another competitive Vintage deck the hate proves overpowering. Even if you bring in a ton of answers, you're adding cards that are dead while you're going off. How much does it suck to have a Storm count of 6 or so and Night's Whisper up a Duress and a FoW instead of some more gas, Wink.

Luiggi
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2005, 06:07:41 pm »

Not only that, but it has to deal with all kinds of other hate cards, like Arcane Lab, Chalices, etc. What I found from playing the deck is that it goldfishes great, but when put up against another competitive Vintage deck the hate proves overpowering. Even if you bring in a ton of answers, you're adding cards that are dead while you're going off. How much does it suck to have a Storm count of 6 or so and Night's Whisper up a Duress and a FoW instead of some more gas, Wink.

Luiggi

Arcane Lab does very little against this deck. It hits play too late unless coupled with a Lotus or other rude mana acceleration.
And decks that play Arcane Lab have 2-3 in the board or they're playing bad Erayo combo - they'll roll over either way.
On top of this, you should remember that even with a Lotus + Arcane Lab starthand, you're probably gonna lose around 65% of the time, if the Tendrils player goes first (disregarding FoW on your part, which would make you a total git to play against, You mising lucksack :lol:)

I've faced Stax decks pre-Trinisphere restriction, but as stated in the original SCG article about the Tendrils deck, this was and still is actually an ok matchup. Stax have around 40% chance of getting a lock component that wrecks Tendrils, but Tendrils still have the 65% chance of winning first turn and almost certainly on turn 2 if that fails. The cointoss is of course immensely important here, which is the fall of this deck... If you lose too many dicerolls to see who goes first, during the day, you're not gonna make it to the top 8.

My advice for you with ways to combat FoW with this deck is simply: "don't". The deck is SO tight, and it really only works optimally when it is in it's maindeck mode... removing cards to add Duress or FoW drops your chances of going off by too much to make it viable. Let's face it: you only play this deck if your balls are the size of Melons, so you might as well play 4 Stream Of Life and 11 Forests in your sb. trying to make this become TPS after sideboarding wont work. Play TPS or Sensei, Sensei if you want to play a combo deck that can handle disruption.

I still think this is one of the most savage decks ever created. Play it in a tournament once and never pick it up again.. just try it once - it's really worth it.

My mini report:
Rnd 1 - Stax
1: He mulligans twice and goes land, mox, mox, Sol Ring. I go off in my turn 1.
2: He Jester's Caps me turn 2, removing 3 Tendrils Of Agony. I win on my turn 2 with the tendrils i have in hand.

Rnd 2 - Stax
1: He plays a Welder and a mox. I go off on my turn 2.
2: He plays turn 1 Workshop, Trinisphere. I scoop before my turn.
3: He mulligans looking for lock components, I go off on my turn 2
(4 - we play another game, because there's lots of time left. I tinker forth a colossus, achieve storm count 11 and kill myself with spoils - all in turn 1.)

Rnd 3 - TPS
1: He Duresses twice, I lose.
2: I get storm count 22 on turn 3. He stifles

Rnd 4 - Hulk
1: I have a slow hand and he Engineered Explosives 2 of my moxen and Wasteland my Bayou. I lose
2: He Forces turn 1 Land Grant and Mind Twists me for the win.

I scoop with the flu.
As you can tell, I won the dice roll in game 2 only. Had I won the dice rolls in game 3 and 4, it would have been very different.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2005, 06:09:18 pm by Anders Noer » Logged

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Mr.Morphling
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2005, 06:35:50 pm »

Well, just telling you guys, this deck is apsolutley savage with unmask.  It might take a tiny bit of tempo away however you can always pitch them to brainstorms and so on.  I have beaten a fair amount of forces with the new updated unmasks.  Oh yeah, about the spoils of the vault.  Are they a must?  I dont know if Im just unlucky but whenever i spoil looking for a rit, I usually hit rock bottem and take 20 life away.  This is strange because I do have 4 of each in the deck when i Spoils.

I took the new build (with unmasks) to a tournament today and only lost to U/W control.  It is a very difficult matchup.  Also, chain of vapor/hurkyls recall is great. Stops angel, arcane labratory, and boosts storm count. Very good card.

Btw, thanx for all the advice 
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2005, 07:05:38 pm »

I don't know if you've already read it or not, but my article had a section devoted to playing against various hate cards, including FoW.  I don't know that I have much to add to it, honestly.
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2005, 09:03:27 am »

I have a quick question for you.

What could you possibly remove from this very tight deck to add four unmask? I've thought about it before too, but then killing turn one wouldn't happen nearly as much. Also a lot of the cards in this deck aren't really expendable (four spoils is a must IMO, as well as eggs), so what did you take out?

EDIT: Also, have you tried Doomsday? It's very similar, but uses unmask already well and isn't as easy to disrupt. I love Doomsday, I think I'm on of the only three people that play it though for some strnge reason (It's not as hard as this deck, or long, go figure). :lol:
« Last Edit: July 12, 2005, 09:24:22 am by Disburden » Logged

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Mr.Morphling
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2005, 12:43:20 pm »

First @ Disburden, I have tried doomsday but it doesnt have that power on turn 1 or 2 that you need.  Also, once you go all in with it, It is very hard to prevent disruption of the combo.  A single recall to you looses you the game.

Well anyway, I removed 2 spoils of the vault an a chromatic sphere for the 3 unmasks.  It hasnt slowed the tempo too much on an average of a full turn over 5 games. (which isnt horrendus)  It has however increased my matchup against any Single deck with a force in it.  Since you dont have to worry about mana drain (as it takes 2CC of U) which is usually too late, the force is usually the only thing that needs to be unmasked. 
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Engine_number_9
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2005, 01:42:29 pm »

Isn't one of the greatest problems with this deck that it's so difficult to play and suffers so much from a play error that it really is too difficult to take to a tournament and have success with it?
My take on it is that one can't really play it to perfections through 6 rounds of swiss and a top 8. It is simply impossible.
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Dralock
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2005, 02:35:02 pm »

Isn't one of the greatest problems with this deck that it's so difficult to play and suffers so much from a play error that it really is too difficult to take to a tournament and have success with it?
My take on it is that one can't really play it to perfections through 6 rounds of swiss and a top 8. It is simply impossible.

If by "difficult to play" you mean "doesn't have a consistent hand to work with most of the time" or "is easily disrupted by force of will and first turn duress", then yes, that is what is difficult to play. The deck requires tons of mana, and a lot of cards to come together all at the same time, therefore the results will be varied.

You can, however, add on that a lot of players aren't going to crunch numbers in their head to make sure everything is optimal.

I think the biggest thing this deck has againsed it is that you have to roll the die to see who goes first.
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2005, 03:35:09 pm »


If by "difficult to play" you mean "doesn't have a consistent hand to work with most of the time" or "is easily disrupted by force of will and first turn duress", then yes, that is what is difficult to play. The deck requires tons of mana, and a lot of cards to come together all at the same time, therefore the results will be varied.

I mean defficult in the sense that it requires a lot of decisions to be taken. These decisions can decide whether you win or lose. In the primer on this deck on SCG Justin Walters says about playing the deck:

"Every decision is an opportunity to make a mistake, and you're going to make at least ten decisions on your winning turn-frequently quite a few more. That leaves you with plenty of chances to make a mistake"

The thing I'm trying to say is that you can't make all these decisions right in 6 rounds of swiss and a top 8 unless you are extremely skilled.
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verduran
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2005, 10:20:19 am »

I've been goldfishing some 25 games with this deck after recently reading this thread. (took some time off from magic so this one kinda slipped passed me) My initial thougts are very positive. Thanks for the article, Saucemaster.

I really like the way this deck walks the edge all of the time. The one for one theory is so beautiful I'm having a hard time not crying of joy.

A tiny little question; I can see the importance of having  a low land count in order not to draw into too many of them so that the chain of spells won't be disupted. It's just the exact configuration of 2 duals and a single fetch that I don't quite get. Could someone explain why the Delta is in there, (instead of another cantrip for instance) why there aren't two, and why Tolarians Acadamy was left out.
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doylehancock
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2005, 10:49:26 am »

I've been goldfishing some 25 games with this deck after recently reading this thread. (took some time off from magic so this one kinda slipped passed me) My initial thougts are very positive. Thanks for the article, Saucemaster.

I really like the way this deck walks the edge all of the time. The one for one theory is so beautiful I'm having a hard time not crying of joy.

A tiny little question; I can see the importance of having┬  a low land count in order not to draw into too many of them so that the chain of spells won't be disupted. It's just the exact configuration of 2 duals and a single fetch that I don't quite get. Could someone explain why the Delta is in there, (instead of another cantrip for instance) why there aren't two, and why Tolarians Acadamy was left out.

I can see using academy instead of the fetch but I would rather thin the deck with fetch.  Fetch helps brainstorm as well.  And you cant land grant academy. 
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verduran
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2005, 04:20:05 am »

Another question: howcome isn't Sensei's Divining top in the deck? (or is it by now?)
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2005, 05:03:32 am »

We put the fetch in there so that you could use it as a pseudo-Land Grant under Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere. You can cut it for Academy now if you want, but that makes me wonder why you'd want to still play the deck. Top would be an interesting addition, though it looks really mana hungry. I haven't tampered with the deck since Waterbury because it's the s uck against decks with FOW : (
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