Return of the Weatherseed Treefolk

[dandan]

The Treefolk were mentioned in another thread and it was mentioned that the ability is more Black than Green. Resisting the bait I thought of how it was logical that a Black creature could be bigger when coming back from the grave and therefore a Green creature could be smaller. At least initially......

Return of the Weatherseed Treefolk (needs cool name)
3GG
1/1
Trample
When ~this~comes into play, it gets 2 +1/+1 counters if you played it from your hand
At the end of turn, if this is in a graveyard and was put into a graveyard from play, return it to play.
During your upkeep, you may put a +1/+1 counter on ~this~ if it has less than three counters on it.

I'd love this to be a 5/3 just like its daddy but alas trying to keep counters as +1/+1 prevents that.
The card is a touch wordy for my liking but I hope the intent is clear. I want to avoid silly stuff with sacrifice and Skullclamp so it can't come back into play immediately.

Yes, it would attack as a 2/2 the turn after it died. This is a Treefolk not a Saproling you know!
Latest Wording

Sprouting Treefolk
2GGG
1/1
Trample
~This~comes into play with 2 +1/+1 counters
Remove all counters from ~this~: Regenerate
During your upkeep, you may put a +1/+1 counter on ~this~ if it has less than three counters on it.

Yes, it is meant to be almost impossible to kill, but it is a 1/1-4/4 Trampler rather than the sexier 5/3 Weatherseed Treefolk enjoys.

[rvs]

When did treefolks become 1/1's with too much rules-text?

[Jacques]

How about you make him a 3/1, citp from hand with 1 +1/+1 counter, stop at 2 counters, and return from the graveyard with none?  That way he would stop at a 5/3 (yay) and be slightly more treefolk-like.  I think the mana cost might need to be tweaked with my adjustments though, as weatherseed was a 5/3 for 2GGG that returned to hand, where as this would be a 4/2 that returned to play as a 3/1 that quickly becomes a 4/2 and eventually a 5/3.  I think it'd be neat to make it 2GGG as even more of an homage.  I also cleaned up the wording a bit.

All in all it'd look something like this:

Return of the Weatherseed Treefolk
2GGG
3/1
Trample
When ~this~ comes into play, it gets 1 +1/+1 counter if you played it from your hand
At the end of turn, if ~this~ was put into your graveyard from play, return it to play under its owner's control.
During your upkeep, you may put a +1/+1 counter on ~this~ if it has less than two counters on it.

[Matt]

Ugh, way too complicated. This needs to be pared down by at least half to have any chance of surviving.

[dandan]

I considered the 3/1 version too strong for 2GGG and want to avoid going up to 6cc as Green has some big hitters there and 5CC is something Green can cast normally. Perhaps there is some way of avoiding it going to the graveyard by removing +1/+1 counters instead of it dying although I worry about creatures you could sacrifice more than once. How about?

Return of the Weatherseed Treefolk (needs cool name)
2GGG
1/1
Trample
When ~this~comes into play, it gets 2 +1/+1 counters
Remove all counters from ~this~: Regenerate
During your upkeep, you may put a +1/+1 counter on ~this~ if it has less than three counters on it.

[Ephraim]

I really like the latest propossal for this card, Dandan, but I have a few suggestions. I'm not crazy about the "Remove all +1/+1 counters..." cost because it makes this thing pret'near invincible. You can remove zero counters from it and still activate the ability. It would certainly be fixed if it just had "Remove two +1/+1 counters..." I also think you could easily give this a 2/2 base. Giant Warthog is a 5/5 trampler for 6 and it doesn't have to grow to get there. At 5 mana, 3 of which are green, and with this card probably being uncommon, I think it's totally fair for this to eventually reach 5/5.

[dandan]

The thing is, the regenerate ability replaced the ability to hop out of the graveyard as a wee young Treefolk and as such it is important that this thing is damned hard to kill - toughness reduction, cannot be regenerated or remove from game all work. The idea is that if you kill the tree something smaller grows in its place. As part of the trade off for making it hard to kill, it can't also grow to a 5/5 Trampler for 5 mana. 4/4 Trample is still respectable (and is similar to the original Weatherseed Treefolk - this one is not as strong in offence but it harder to kill) and I think regenerate is far tidier than coming out of the graveyard as well as being greener and not prone to sacrificial abuse.
 

[dandan]

Please save a Treefolk from page 2.

[dandan]

Please save a Treefolk from page 5!

Can I start a clock on this one? 

[Shmn]

I believe the proper wording is: "~this~ comes into play with two +1/+1 counters on it."

As a compromise between removing two counters and removing all of them, I suggest removing one counter as the regeneration cost. It would mean sacrificing one turn's growth to stay alive, and allow for the Treefolk to be destroyed if being hammered persistently enough. Being able to lend infite growth to regenerate is unrealistic, and two counters would mean it could not regenerate once per turn and as such function as a reliable blocker for bigger creatures.

I think the name also needs a revision. Return does not fit anymore and would suit a non-creature spell better in the first place. How about Sprouting Treefolk for simple yet describing a name?

[dandan]

Whilst removing one counter is simpler and balanced, from a flavour point of view I want the tree to be cut down and a small tree to take its place. The hardness to kill is very important.

[Shmn]

Whislt removing one counter is simpler and balanced, from a flavour point of view I want the tree to be cut down and a small tree to take its place. The hardness to kill is very important.

I would say it's pretty hard to kill with the ability to regenerate with one removal of a counter, but if you want to make it practically immortal, you could change the regeneration ability to: "When ~ is put into a graveyard from play, you may put a token into play that's a copy of ~". To not have the new tree come into play with counters, you would have to reword the other ability: "If you played it from your hand, ~ comes into play with two +1/+1 counters on it."

Afterall, the Treefolk does not regenerate but is replaced by a new tree, right?

[dandan]

I don't think it is practical to have such a complex token. One of the earlier versions came back from the yard but I wanted to make it possible to kill this (toughness deduction, destroy and not regenerate, etc) as indestructable creatures are a bit of a pain.
The Regeneration route is a pretty good fix although, as you point out, not quite as good a fit as coming back from the yard. Somehow keeping it alive seems more Green than bringing it back from the dead.

Removing just one counter makes this very hard to kill I agree but I'd rather cut it down to size every time it regenerates and make it really really hard to regenerate than basically make it a 4/4 than goes down to a 3/3 when it regenerates. I'd say it is actually a weaker card with 'Remove all +1/+1 counters' than with 'Remove a +1/+1 counter' as its size is probably more important than the ability to regenerate up to 3 times between upkeeps but not more.

[Shmn]

How about: "Remove all counters from ~: Regenerate ~. Use this ability only if ~ has one or more counters on it." That way it would always be returned to a 1/1 after regenerating but it could be killed when it had no counters (no resources for growth) and still be regenerated with just one counter.

I like the regeneration ability better than dying and being replaced by another tree (note: not returning back from the grave). It makes more sense, even though replacement would also work albeit being more complicated.

[dandan]

The original Weatherseed Treefolk was a pain in the butt to kill so I wanted to make this similar. I think Shmn's suggestion is the best alternative to mine but I'd rather keep it as having unlimited regeneration if at all possible. I don't think there are power-level concerns, are there?

[dandan]

Clock