What is the absolute worst card to unrestrict?

[Anusien]

Which card would wreck tournament play the most as a 4 of, and why?

Personally, I'd say multiple Ancestrals would rock the house like no one's business.

[Methuselahn]

Tinker, because it is a tutor, acceleration, and most importantly, a widely accessable card.

[Rico Suave]

I would be very afraid of the turn 1 kill percentage of a deck packing 4 Black Lotus.  That took my vote.

Hell, control decks would kill turn 1 with a double Lotus opening.

[Godder]

Cards that produce lots of mana quickly and/or draw lots of cards and/or have some stupidly powerful and undercosted effect are the ones to look for. Mind's Desire is an obvious candidate, as are Balance, Wheel/Twister/Memory Jar (draw 7 is much more dangerous than draw 3), Necro, Bargain, Will, Academy, Tinker, Fastbond and Channel. Black Lotus deserves a special mention because four would also break the format in half.

Come to that, I think four Time Walk would be more of a problem than four Ancestral Recall.

[Matt]

It's "Yawgmoth," not "Yawgamoth". This is a pet peeve of mine. Poll edited.

[jpmeyer]

I would be very afraid of the turn 1 kill percentage of a deck packing 4 Black Lotus.  That took my vote.

Hell, control decks would kill turn 1 with a double Lotus opening.

[Machinus]

How come I am the only person to say will?

[Rico Suave]

Because these other cards people could play as a 4-of will win the game before you can cast an effective Will. 

[Smmenen]

Anyone who says anything other than black lotus is [insert insult regarding intelligence].  It isn't even close.

Tinker...pfffft.. Who do you think is going to win - my four necro/desire/fastbond/channel/strip mine/mana crypt/Sol Ring/Mox Sapphire/LED/Burning Wish/etc etc deck or your four tinker deck?

[Godder]

Anyone who says anything other than black lotus is [insert insult regarding intelligence]. It isn't even close.

Tinker...pfffft.. Who do you think is going to win - my four necro/desire/fastbond/channel/strip mine/mana crypt/Sol Ring/Mox Sapphire/LED/Burning Wish/etc etc deck or your four tinker deck?

Unrestricting Tinker is rather like unrestricting Memory Jar. I don't think it would be so warping without Jar, although unrestricted Tinker -> Mindslaver might be troublesome (probably not as bad as unrestricting Time Walk, though).

Lotus would be weird, because any deck can use it. Would it make a particular deck dominant, or would it just reduce the fundamental turn even further?

All that said, these arguments always seem kinda pointless – it's like trying to determine what the damage would be if a 20 megaton nuclear device were detonated in a city, as opposed to a 17 megaton nuclear device.

[JACO]

3, 2, 1....Contract from Below. You wouldn't need 4 Lotuses if you had 4 Contracts.

[Methuselahn]

I also totally believe that unrestricting Black Lotus would make the fun factor go through the roof whereas unrestricted Tinker could and would be played by everyone, thus making the format severly boring and horrible to play in.  It's really hard to tell though, because nobody really has any facts on how popular Vintage would become because of this.  It's all based on opinion and educated guess.  The sad thing about opinions is that they are alot like assholes.  Everyone has one and they usually stink.

[Matt]

Anyone who says anything other than black lotus is [insert insult regarding intelligence].  It isn't even close.

Tinker...pfffft.. Who do you think is going to win - my four necro/desire/fastbond/channel/strip mine/mana crypt/Sol Ring/Mox Sapphire/LED/Burning Wish/etc etc deck or your four tinker deck?

The real question is, "Who has four Lotuses?"

[Komatteru]

Anyone who says anything other than black lotus is [insert insult regarding intelligence].  It isn't even close.

Tinker...pfffft.. Who do you think is going to win - my four necro/desire/fastbond/channel/strip mine/mana crypt/Sol Ring/Mox Sapphire/LED/Burning Wish/etc etc deck or your four tinker deck?

The real question is, "Who has four Lotuses?"

I have all my power and never proxy any cards.  I wouldn't be ashamed to proxy three additional Loti if given the chance.

[Matt]

Hah, I totally forgot about proxies. o_o Pretend it's sanctioned, then.

New question: If you could play with four of any restrcited card, but doing so meant that the rest of the power nine were banned to you, would you do it and what card would you play? Are three more Lotuses worth losing 5x Moxen and Walk and Ancestral (and Twister for combo)?

[Whatever Works]

The power 9 should be completely taken out of the equation... Any1 in there right mind should say black lotus... IF you have 4 black lotuses in the deck you will win turn 1-Turn 2 with any version of a combo deck you want every time... The opponent will laugh at a tinker collosus or a tinker whatever... when they know they will win on there turn... through FoW...

If we did not include power 9 the list of the pole should be something like...

Tinker
Black Vise (imagine 4 of these in stax and cry)
Balance (would be good but not as good as used to be when unrestricted)
MINDS DESIRE (x4 of these better then 4 tinker too)
Contract from below (no explanation needed)
FASTBOND (TurboNevyn or dare I say high tide combo?)
CHANNEL (Belcher would be best deck in format)
Gush (Would be soooo good right now)
YAWGMOTH'S BARGAIN (No explanation Needed)
NECROPOTENCE (no explanation needed)
And that was at most a 30 second brainstorm...

Yawgmoth's will unrestricted wouldnt do crap compared to alot of cards... Its not great early game at all, and would be extremely dead most of the time...

[Methuselahn]

See, this is the real question:

Which card would wreck tournament play the most as a 4 of, and why?

But everyone that votes for lotus thinks, for some reason, that this is the question:
'Which card would make the most broken deck as a 4 of, and why?'

Which is more likely to wreck Vintage?  All decks can run 4 Black Lotii or everybody playing a Tinker deck? At least with Lotus, you have deckbuilding variety, despite how absurd the decks will be and how absurd this thread is.

[knickers]

heh
I think Black Lotus would have the most effect ... especially on what decks people would build and play. I'm fairly confident you'd see a lot more maindeck Chalice of the Void if you were allowed to run 4x Black Lotus.

I wonder how good a STAX deck would become with 4x Trinsphere, and 4x Black Vise maindeck!

What I don't get is why people keep repeating "Contract from below" ...
The question clearly states "What is the absolute worst card to unrestrict?" ... not "unban" ...
Sorry people but this is really starting to drive me nuts ...

[kl0wn]

Barring the stupidity that is quadruple Lotus, I think Desire would probably be most insane. This is, of course, with all the 9 in the mix.

It actually took some time to figure out that everything was broken with the exception of Desire. Remember Desire was nuked before it even hit the shelves.

[BurningIce]

Well in the last 12 months I've owned 3 different Lotuses... including 2 at once.  But now I'm back to the regular 1.

I'd say Lotus/Ancestral from the P9... from the others?

Mind's Desire.  That retardo deck people were coming up with when Desire was printed.  So silly.

[Godder]

Would unrestricting Lotus make one deck dominant, or would it just move the Fundamental turn closer to 1?

Which is worse?

[dandan]

Waaaaaaaaaaay back when we were all bad at Magic and everyone didn't have lots of cards, I remember seeing decks with 4 Walk, Sol Ring, Ancestral killing with Juggernauts. EuroGencon (95 I assume) made what I think was the first ever B&R list - maximum of 5 non-creature artifacts (might have been artifacts - obviously Craw Wurms were better than Juggernauts anyway [joke]). In a world of silly Blue, the acceleration of Artifacts was considered a bigger problem.

In addition, before the 4-of rule, Wheel+Lotus was considered the standard 'broken' deck.

Broken mana > broken spells

[Machinus]

Broken mana > broken spells

This is absolutely right. I think this is one of the reasons that "mana cards" are so expensive ($$$) compared to broken and powerful nonmana cards, and on a more important level, what separates the formats from each other. Vintage has broken many cards from lesser formats that couldn't abuse them properly.

However, with a relatively short banned list, the DCI has tamed 1.5, despite many unrestricted mana accelerants.

This makes me wonder why WotC doesn't try more fast mana in weaker formats, since they lack the broken cards to cast. Do they care about the stability of type 1 that much? I doubt it.

[Vegeta2711]

This makes me wonder why WotC doesn't try more fast mana in weaker formats, since they lack the broken cards to cast. Do they care about the stability of type 1 that much? I doubt it.

Not to be mean or anything, but you realize the best deck in T2 relies on a 9cc spell that can consistently be cast by turn 4/5, right? That's sorta fast I think. Meanwhile in block, some of the most powerful decks are completely reliant on green's acceleration to consistently cast 6cc spells and up. Saklura-Tribe Elder and Kodama's Reach have honestly been some of the best mana acceleration in non-T1 formats like... ever.

[Hi-Val]

Continuing the divergence : ) a turn 1 Birds, turn 2 Reach, turn 3 Heartbeat of Spring = Turn 4 Myojin of RapeYourHand or WrathYourBoard in Standard : )

I'd have to agree with Klown here; Mind's Desire is pretty ridic. Black Lotus is crazy good though...

[Machinus]

This makes me wonder why WotC doesn't try more fast mana in weaker formats, since they lack the broken cards to cast. Do they care about the stability of type 1 that much? I doubt it.

Not to be mean or anything, but you realize the best deck in T2 relies on a 9cc spell that can consistently be cast by turn 4/5, right? That's sorta fast I think. Meanwhile in block, some of the most powerful decks are completely reliant on green's acceleration to consistently cast 6cc spells and up. Saklura-Tribe Elder and Kodama's Reach have honestly been some of the best mana acceleration in non-T1 formats like... ever.

That's "regular speed" mana acceleration. "Mana acceleration" is totally different from "fast mana." Birds of paradise, rampant growth and their copies have always been around, and they have never been considered fast mana. The point of my post is that WotC prints powerful spells in standard that can't be cast quickly enough to make them broken (turn 4? wow, be serious here). Then they come to vintage and they get abused in ways unimaginable before (gifts, slaver).

Legacy is an example of a format with lots of fast mana, but no very powerful cards to cast with it. This is a great format because it has real counterspells, therefore making fast mana safe and powerful (but not broken) cards available to play with.

OPINION
I would like to see a return of a tempest-like block where there is a lot of fast mana and efficient counters, INSTEAD of what has been developing, which is a slower format with mediocre disruption, and inevitability around turn 6. Clearly im in the minority on this since everyone loves type 2 right now, but I prefer the early game.
//OPINION

[Komatteru]

OPINION
I would like to see a return of a tempest-like block where there is a lot of fast mana and efficient counters, INSTEAD of what has been developing, which is a slower format with mediocre disruption, and inevitability around turn 6. Clearly im in the minority on this since everyone loves type 2 right now, but I prefer the early game.
//OPINION

While this thread isn't supposed to be about T2, I'll say that this observation is a bit incorrect.  T2 is quite fast, and quite brutal.  My red deck often has a first turn play of significance (Top or Slith), and almost always has a big play on turn 2.  It often drops Arc Slogger on turn 4 or 5, at which point the game ends when I untap with it.  In fact, I have to mull a hand that doesn't have a turn 2 play that's significant (i.e., Slith, or LD spell, or w/e).  Troll Ascetics reguarly come down on turn 2, get equipped on turn 3 and swing for 3 or 5 + 2 on turn 4.  Tooth and Nail resolves  a 9 mana sorcery on turn 4 or 5 with regularity.  Sometimes it hardcasts Sundering Titan then instead.  The format has a lot of significant plays that happen on turn 2, and I'd almost say that turn 3 is the fundamental turn in T2.  That's not too different from T1...

On topic, Black Lotus = totally ridiculous.  Games would end very quickly.  Brian (forcefieldyou) is correct in that any deck should win if it plays Black Lotus on the first turn.  I know I always win when I get Black Lotus on turn 1, and often on turn 1 itself.

EDIT: Now that I see it, Brian's comment about Black Lotus is in another thread.  I know it's somewhere, but I'm not sure where.

[Vegeta2711]

That's "regular speed" mana acceleration. "Mana acceleration" is totally different from "fast mana." Birds of paradise, rampant growth and their copies have always been around, and they have never been considered fast mana.

What's the difference between Chrome Mox and Sakura-Tribe Elder? They both put me up +1 mana at the end of the day and both help me accelerate into higher costing spells. I don't make some dubious distinction that in real game terms doesn't matter in the least.

The point of my post is that WotC prints powerful spells in standard that can't be cast quickly enough to make them broken (turn 4? wow, be serious here).

...wow be serious? What kind of answer is that? Honest question, do you even play Type 2? I know in Vintage terms that may not sound like much, but in nearly any other format casting a 9 mana spell on turn 4 is FAST. And if you're saying that in the context that I can't get a turn 4 Tooth, feel free to play the deck sometime. I hate to shatter whatever expectations you have of Type 2, but many of these expensive spells CAN be cast fast enough to be broken in non-Vintage formats. Formats that are the rule, not the exception, of speed. Actually even if you directly compare, Turn 1 Land Mox Slith vs. Land Mox Merchant Scroll... yeah big difference speed wise.

Then they come to vintage and they get abused in ways unimaginable before (gifts, slaver).

*sigh* Yeah right, like Mindslaver and Gifts Ungiven were never abused in Extended. Ever.

OPINION
I would like to see a return of a tempest-like block where there is a lot of fast mana and efficient counters, INSTEAD of what has been developing, which is a slower format with mediocre disruption, and inevitability around turn 6. Clearly im in the minority on this since everyone loves type 2 right now, but I prefer the early game.
//OPINION

Read my report. My deck can consistently win around turn 4. Type 2 is hardly slow and games are typically over sooner than turn 6, even if you haven't lost yet.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10081.html

[jpmeyer]

That's "regular speed" mana acceleration. "Mana acceleration" is totally different from "fast mana." Birds of paradise, rampant growth and their copies have always been around, and they have never been considered fast mana. The point of my post is that WotC prints powerful spells in standard that can't be cast quickly enough to make them broken (turn 4? wow, be serious here). Then they come to vintage and they get abused in ways unimaginable before (gifts, slaver).

Is that like the difference between a Mox and Sol Ring?  I'm not really sure what you mean here.  How is a Type 1 deck having say, 6 mana on turn 4 different from a Tooth and Nail deck that has 9?

[Demonic Attorney]

Hey everyone, remember when you could play 4 Tolarian Academies?  Remember how stupid and pointless Magic was back then?  Because I do.