Filling out 5 Colour Stax

[vroman]

I dont know why youd dump welder. maybe reducing it to 2, but still look at this card: for a single colored mana you gain protection from artifact destruction and have the ability to interefere w enemy artifacts, which is crucial in the workshop mirror. welder is V undercosted and useful. considering you only have 1 win condition, karn, an ability to retrieve him if countered/killed seems necesary. furthermore, most opponents WILL counter welder if they have the chance, so at worst, you 2 for 1 them when they force something that lets you slip in eye of chaos or smoky immediately after.

[defector]

I think I would only run welders if Artifact Mutation becomes big again, as its not seeing that much I'd let them go.  This is a completely new direction for stax and I don't think the welders are necessary.  The crucible recursion has fixed the welder problem. 
defector

[Whatever Works]

If you run welder in 5c stax it just proves that you have no idea how the deck works. Its absolutely horrible no matter how many you run. 5c stax almost never has artifacts in its graveyard, and it wins the game through essentially creating a hard lock... Why then would any1 want to put that in question by adding welder (which is a horrible first turn play in this deck), when stax could instead go first turn lock component... turn 2 lock component + wasteland.

[Disburden]

If you run welder in 5c stax it just proves that you have no idea how the deck works. Its absolutely horrible no matter how many you run. 5c stax almost never has artifacts in its graveyard, and it wins the game through essentially creating a hard lock... Why then would any1 want to put that in question by adding welder (which is a horrible first turn play in this deck), when stax could instead go first turn lock component... turn 2 lock component + wasteland.

I think the point of not running welders is made 100% complete with this post.
I always can cast a first turn smokestack, trinisphere, crucible, INTEOC first turn without problems or having to mulligan. Why would I care to Welder crap thats ALWAYS in play and never in the dead pile?

[b-tings]

I don't think either of you are being fair to vroman. Look at the interactions he mentions.

for a single colored mana you gain protection from artifact destruction and have the ability to interefere w enemy artifacts, which is crucial in the workshop mirror[...]considering you only have 1 win condition, karn, an ability to retrieve him if countered/killed seems necesary. furthermore, most opponents WILL counter welder if they have the chance, so at worst, you 2 for 1 them when they force something that lets you slip in eye of chaos or smoky immediately after.

The only interaction he mentions that I find problematic is opponents countering it. In this deck, especially with it's array of coloured threats, countering Welder is often incorrect. I don't like relying on my opponent to misplay for my match wins, especially with players like Beuhler and Turian turning up for these things. The other comment, about only having one win condition, only applies to Steve's list, and then only if you discount Shaman beats. Most other people are running at minimum 1 Trike main; I am running a single Titan, as a safety net that allows me to run a "naked" tinker into something ridiculous, although the need for this has lessened with the removal of Mystical Tutor (while we're on the topic, what do people think of it? Titan is usually as good as a mulligan until about the same point as Will, depending on how many shops you draw).

Other than that, he is correct: Welder protects you from artifact destruction and wins the Shop mirror. However, this is mostly relevent post-board except for random Seals of Cleansing. Has anyone tried boarding in Welders for the Shop mirror, or do they just bring in Triskelion anyways? Is it better to bring in Tricycle/EE and deal with opposing Welders than run your own? What about Seal of Cleansing (presuming you do not have them main)? Rack and Ruin?

vroman, where do you play again? Is your area shop-heavy? That would explain a lot of the Welder bias. The 8 shop decks in my area was an aberrition caused by one team of five all picking up shop aggro for the day; usually it's not quite so heavy out here.

[Lunar]

Man im gone for a day and there are like 400832097502935 posts that have taken me all day to read (then re-read)

In response to questions about welders...I realize they do almost nothing for the lock which much of the time is terrible, I did take a shot at Zvi's advice and tossed one in for my last tourney (which I placed 5th out of 30 in) Was it really that good? I dont know I didnt see it once for the whole tourney, I also ran it in a smaller tourney (which I also placed 5th in) and saw it once against fish and it was Force of Willed in a game I eventually won (my tourney match record against fish like decks for the last 3 tourneys has been 3-1) What good did it accomplish? Well every pithing needle he played against me the rest of the match was set to welder (even though I only had 1 in the deck and never saw another one) 

So the problem is that it was 100% random...I did like the fact though that people knew I had welders in my deck and would try their best to prevent them...is this reason enough to justify them? Probably not...in response to another question earlier I will probably not be running them this saturday however changes are still possible before the lotus tourney here on sunday...Ive decided to run the Yawg Will over the single welder for now...Will has been decent in goldfishing, I havnt had much time this week for real playtesting but it looks slightly hopeful...hopefully ill have better luck with it this time than last.

As for some other points on the build...

Seal of Cleansing...I dont run them main anymore, even though some important stax people are saying they are super good in the deck, my meta simply has not warrented them (in fact my only losing match record with stax in my area came when I had seal MD and not meddling mage)  On the other hand, I AM running 3 in the SB right now....

Meddling Mage...I have just had really good experiences with this guy, this is another one that maybe isnt 100% optimal for every meta game, heck it might not be 100% optimal for my meta game, but when he comes down against pretty much anything I am in a vastly better position than I was a turn earlier...he has also singlehandedly won me matches against the salvager oath decks in my area...While sometimes he is rough on my mana, sometimes i view him as a mana fixer, he helps me keep hands with no workshops much easier...if I know I can drop chalice on 0 and shaman turn 1 with mage coming turn 2 im feeling pretty good about my matchup (or first turn mage after chalice is really hot too)...that should purchase me more than enough time to win out the match...Personal experience has shown him to be good.

Maze of Ith...SB only probably eh?  with crop rotation and demonic and vampiric tutor this is an easy answer to keep off a collosus that made it through or it buys time against akroma and spirit...Id never run it MD though, that just seems silly.

Gorilla Shaman...Im currently running 2...my area doesnt have a high amount of vial fish...chalice on 0 is rarely a major problem for me as well in my area (weird I know...I just want to explain my choices in terms of meta consideration..what works for me may not work for you) Even when chalice for 0 drops I can generally play workshop and not worry about it...I just am a little more careful keeping hands with mostly mana accelerants when on the draw...Shaman is great for obtaining/keeping a lock on the player (like a reactive chalice on 0) and he can clean up little things like aether vial or pithing needle (if its not naming shaman)

Pithing Needle...solid id say...playable with the shops, and cheap to get around any spheres you might already have...its a cheap permanent and most importantly it is great against vial fish...you can name jitte you can name vial...this and pyroclasm or old man out of the SB coupled with EE and Chalice or just Chalice (set to 2) is a great step in the right direction...Needle is useful in other matchups as well, I see no real argument to not run this in the SB as a 2 or 3 of...

Chalice of the void...This was a question to me as it is to b-tings....why only 3? It was the first change I made (up to 4 chalice), and ive never looked back..I would love to hear steve and kevins reasonings for only running 3 in a deck that can pretty much set chalice to any number it wants and never have it be dead late game.

As it stands im out of time...keep it coming guys...this is probably the best stax thread ive seen for a long long long long time, could be the best. (If only Kevin himself would chip in a bit.)

[Smmenen]

I just want to clarify what I said about Mox Diamond.  I thought Mox Diamond was awesome becuase the deck really wants a turn one threat and you almost never get a hand with only one land.  The deck is pretty land heavy with 5 Waste, 4 Shop, Academy, and 8 five color lands.  It has the mana base of keeper from 2001 . 

I think the best analogy I had for Mox Diamond was a miniature Fastbond.  You get a small burst of tempo at the cost of a card.  Usually, however that card is recouped by the card you used to speed up the game.  If you drop Crucible (a key card in the deck), then it's all the more worth it.

Sometimes I'd get to do plays like this:

Mishra's Workshop, Crucible of Worlds:
Mox Diamond discarding X land, Crop Rotation into Strip Mine.  Now that was a hot play. 

Did anyone notice how insane every single mox is in this deck?  My favorite hands are the hands where you have like 4 different colored cards, but you can play like 3 of them on turn one with Ruby, Jet, and a land. 

Mox Diamond makes that all work even better.  If it was up to me, *I* would have played Mox Diamond in Richmond.  However, I went with Kevin's list based upon his experience.  I forced him to seed Mox Diamond into opening hands just to see how good it was.  It,, of course, is awesome.  ESPECIALLY with Balance oh man!  I thought it should be in addition to Petal, not instead of it.  But in the end, he argued what I already argued - that it was a poor topdeck and bad in mulliganing.  He is right - but I still think the tempo boost it provides is worth it.  I would SB it out frequently, but I think there is a strong case to be made that it deserves a maindeck slot. 

I also am very puzzled that you like Glimmervoid.  I tried Tendo Bridge in preparation for Richmond, but found that I just needed the colors too much and that it was more often than not, worse than Gemstone. 

I hear what Vroman is saying about a weak mana base, but I think Crucible is a key component of this deck (along with Will and Balance obv). 

In regards to Welder, again, it's not that it isn't good that they will counter Welder - that's sweet.  But what are you using it for?  I just don't see anything to weld in besides Smokestack.  Maybe that justifies the use of Welder, mayb it doesn't.  But I think its a weak draw if you haven't seen your stack yet.

Kevin had tried Meddling Mages in Stax sometime last year with Standstills to see how it worked.  I was the one who suggested we try them again in the board for the reason that Mage stops Tinker, period.  In the Eye of Chaos primary flaw is that.  So mage was a good sb card for stopping Tinker. 

I think the deck constantly needs to be redesigned.  I'm not so sure that the Wire/Welder version isn't the way to go right now with so few people playing Intuition AK and Cunning Wish - the cards that made Wire/Welder weak. 

Moreover, and this is really important: part of the allure of the 5c Stax list is that you get to play lock components off Mox Land and go wild with it and therefore decrease your reliance on Mishras Workshop.  The prevalence of Chalice of the Void makes relying on Workshop a more powerful play.  So in the case in which Workshop Wire was once a weaker play becuase of all the reasons just cited, I think it is now a stronger play. 

Oh, this is also really important: one of the absolutely most difficult things about this deck is getting the opponent to counter the right spell.  For example, your hand is;

Mishra's Workshop, Crucible of Worlds, Mox Jet, Vampiric Tutor, Chains of Mephistopheles, and Gemstone Mine and an irrellevant 7th card.  What do you do?

There are like 3 different ways to play this and I'm still not sure which is best.  Assume both that you are going first and going second and against the deck of your choice.  After I hear what you think I'll give my analysis. 

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Ok, has anyone tried taking out will for burning wish? It does make you neuter your board, but it's also quite versatile. People complaining about an early will no longer have to worry. Also, you take out crap like swords and you can rely on wish--->innocent blood. It also means you can randomly WRECK control by wishing for a mind twist. It is a tempo loss to wish on your turn for a next turn threat, but is it worth it?

Smenenen:

On the play vs. control:
turn 1 mox, mine, chains: my reasoning is now you have completely stopped their draw. Be it brainstorm or AK. If you're on the play vs. something like Gifts, I think they would force if they had it. Stopping their scroll--->recall or BS is just too good. It means they can't accel their mana like mad.

Next turn, I'd play crucible, followed by an EOT tutor for strip mine(or not) depending on what I draw. I tend to keep tutors in my hand the longest, because of their flexibility. It means you have access to every card in your deck.

The reason I say drop chains first vs. control is because it'll have an immediate impact on the game, unlike crucible. If you give your opponent a turn, he might just scroll--->recall or BS into hotness.

I gotta run to prepare for SCG chicago, but I'll post other scenarios when I get back.

-Bob

[b-tings]

I managed to injure myself, which means I actually got in some testing today. I was quite a bit happier with Gorilla Shaman this time around, but only until I drew multiples. 3 definately feels wrong, but that could also be my awful lazy shuffling (did I go a game without seeing Trinisphere?). Demonic Consultation was completely awful and has been cut. Some of my friends are trying to sell me on Mystical Tutor again. It fetches Balance Ancestral Tinker Will Time Walk. That's quite a bit of hotness, and usually either Tinker, Will, or Balance is an "out." When it isn't, Ancestral gives you quantity over a specific answer. Time Walk is quite frankly amazing in all sorts of strange situations, and I can't beleive you and Kevin didn't run it at Richmond.

If Mystical comes back in, should I throw in a single StP? It's not *terrible* in any match, really, and it does increase my ability to answer bad situations. Everyone seems to be complaining about it, so I don't know. Is it really so bad? Thinking about openers, I think it would feel like a mulligan if you don't know what your opponent is running, but this would turn out to be wrong 50% of the time. Basically, is having the out available at the right time worth drawing it at the wrong time?

I'm no longer complaining about Will in the main deck. It's still a mulligan early game, but I can usually work around a mulligan with the inevitability that Will gives me. Maybe this has something to do with a Will that involved Time Walk and Ancestral today. Yeah, I won that one. Staring down the Iron Giant and coming out on top is a beautiful thing.

Now, on to Smmenen's post. And what a doozy.

I thought I was going crazy when Mox Diamond started looking good. Good to know that I'm either not going crazy, or that everyone else is too.

Let's look at the situations where Mox off the top would be significantly worse than what you're replacing with it. You can't really cut a land to run Mox Diamond, so we're assuming that you're cutting a spell. If you draw Mox when you were begging the top of your deck for a mana source, it's not really any worse than the gas you replaced that would sit in your hand with the rest of your action, at least immediately. If you're flooded and begging for some juice, yes, Diamond will be bad. But generally, in that instance, so would any Mox. The major difference is that you can't run the Diamond out to soak up Stack for a turn, but if you're flooded that's generally not a big issue anyways.

What about the hands where you're neither mana-hungry nor action-hungry? These are the hands where Mox can be deceptively bad. Is that worth it for another (mana fixing) mox? Since Steve tossed it out there that it might be, and I'm an enormous barn, I'll give it another go.

Basically, I look at Diamond as a Mox with a steeper declination rate than the real thing (I don't know if declination rate is the right term. In fact, I think I just made it up. Think Chalice of the Void in Fish; past turn one on the play, they're junk. Chalice of the Void, in Fish, probably has the sharpest declination rate of any card in any deck in the environment.). Am I missing something that makes it better/worse than this assessment would indicate?

Out of curiosity, Steve, could you give some examples of situations in which you would side Mox Diamond out?

Regarding Glimmervoid, you will notice in the list I ran in Seattle that there were quite a bit fewer coloured cards than what you and Kevin ran at Richmond. Figuring that I had already lost with no artifacts in play 99% of the time, and noting that I was losing a percentage or two to going below 12 against Gifts and drawing two and three cities against Fish, I gave them a whirl. At this point, I've had to play around Void's drawback once to date, and that involved a double mulligan that wasn't going anywhere anyway. I might still be wrong, and the 5-colour lands are something that we haven't gone over yet, so I'd be happy to hear the general thoughts on all of them. I will say that, to date, Gemstone Mine has had the most problematic drawback of the three, but this is after having gone down to two cities, which of course means Mine is coming up twice as often (or not, but it's 2 am and I'm not going to run the numbers).

As for Mage stopping Tinker, it sure does do that, but in my experience Tinker has not been all that scary. Sure, it will randomly steal games, but there is very little to be done about that except shake your head ruefully and smash face in games two and three. When Tinker steals random wins, it's usually too early for Mage to come out to play anyways.

When Tinker actually has to get set up, it's quite frankly one of the most difficult things for an opposing deck to do. Unlike against other decks, Gifts or other decks running the Tinker plan cannot go about their merry business as you go about yours, letting you advance just far enough that you're still trumped by a Tinker while they search for the card, because of the intense pressure you put on their mana and the constant threat of locking them out of the game completely. Between Chalices, Shamans, EE, and Karn, you're ability to lock your opponent out of artifact mana is second to none. While artifact mana is a luxury for casting expensive spells like Gifts, it is a necessity for casting Tinker. If you find Gifts is having too much time to work itself into good Tinker position, I would suggest being more aggressive about playing into Mana Drain. One of the best ways to deal with Mana Drain is to play into it with threats as early as possible (Stay with me here. I know it sounds a little bit dumb). Granted, this gives them an awesome tempo boost in the early game; but, as long as it's a non-lethal tempo boost, they have to go back to playing fair in a turn. When Gifts Ungiven isn't outright ending the game, it's really not all that impressive. I'm not saying be stupid about it, but there are times when my opponent's are wearing it on their bloody forehead and I still put something out there for them to drain, rather than trying to play suboptimal threats around it and giving them time to work into a position where Drain -> Gifts ends the game. It's not going away; unless you can shut it off (through Spheres of Resistence, say, or postboard waiting for REB to show up), better to get it out of their hand before it'll go lethal.

Now we get to the really interesting stuff. Regarding Welder/Wire, I truly think it is suboptimal, not necessarily from a metagame standpoint, but from a broader theoretical standpoint. While they do do a rather good job of shutting off Drain, and the Ritual decks that could seemingly shrug of a Tangle Wire with the most ease are not present in today's metagame, I feel the sacrifices needed to make them playable (Adding Welders, at which point we add Thirst for Knowledge or Intuition, and soforth cascading until we get back to the traditional U/r builds.) end up giving the deck less raw power and more bad draws. It will still look powerful, and will often look downright unfair doing stupid Welder tricks with stupid fat artifacts, but you end up flailing when you don't get all your ducks in a row; Thirst for Knowledge, Welder, and Tangle Wire don't do a very good job without their support crew. I can remember countless games where Welder was a vanilla 1/1. With 5 colour, this is rarely a problem, except when I draw multiple Gorilla Shamans (a problem I'm going to avoid by not playing 3).

Out of curiosity, was this possibly due to being terrible back then and not mulliganing properly? Does anyone who played a lot of U/r stax who wasn't awful at the time have similar anecdotes? Was it simply an issue of me not looking at hands properly that ended up with too many situations where Tangle Wire or Thirst or Welder went unaccompanied, or am I correct that it is a function of the cards being too dependent on accompaniment?

Regarding the Mox and a Land theory, you put forward that whether or not this is stronger or weaker than reliance on Shops is a function of metagame. As such, I think that particular discussion should be left until after Chicago.

Getting to the example hand, I find it difficult, both because of the "irrellevant 7th card" and because, on the draw, what I do is very dependant on how my opponent leads. The first is easily solved by assuming this is a mulligan hand; the second I see no adequate solution to. So, I am on the play, against Meandeck Gifts, seeing as it is the deck du jour.

I see five viable plays, actually, with variations on two plays 1) Gemstone Mine, Jet, Chains 2) Shop, Crucible of Worlds, Jet, with the intent of (a)eot or (b)main phase Vampiric Tutor, with the most obvious choice being Strip Mine, 3) Mox Jet, Vampiric Tutor -> (a)Strip Mine/(b)or other Mishra's Workshop Crucible of Worlds.

This hand raises some serious issues. First, there is the strength of Chains against Meandeck Gifts. It shuts down Brainstorm and makes scroll -> Recall the worst Frantic Search ever, but without having tested around it I really can't speak to it's strength. Secondly, none of these cards by themselves present a serious mana threat; the Crucible requires you to burn the Vampiric Tutor in order to become threatening. Therefore, I think we can rule out 2) (a). If Crucible sticks, letting our opponent drop a land before casting our Vampiric Tutor gives them the opportunity to respond with Brainstorm to find Force, which is a very real consideration since recurring Strip Mine is a fairly obvious play at this point. With this consideration, 2) (b) seems weak as well, since Meandeck Gifts is generally known to be good at protecting it's duals, so Crucible is not an immediate threat unless combined with Smokestack of Strip Mine. If the opponent bases their play on this line of thinking, they will allow the Crucible to resolve, but likely Force the follow-up Tutor to prevent Strip Mine recursion. This gives us no mana lock parts, and brings at least one Brainstorm online, which severely weakens our Chains.

This would seem to point us to the Chains play, which has it's merits. If it resolves, Chains cuts off their Brainstorms and Recall. However, it doesn't do anything to hurt their mana. In fact, with turn one Chains, the only way this deck can start cutting mana before your opponent has gotten two full turns worth of it is to upkeep Vampiric Tutor for Strip Mine, and unless you rip either Gorilla Shaman, explosives, or a waste effect to follow up, you're second turn mana denial is followed up by a third turn reprieve while you cast Crucible, at which point they've had plenty of time to use their non-draw effects to optimize, and can probably counter the Crucible, leaving you with your dick in your hands, and not much else.

Mox Jet -> Vampiric Tutor will allow you to resolve the tutor, at which point you might be tempted to get the Strip Mine, follow up with Crucible, and cackle evilly. The problem is, your opponent will see Strip Mine recursion coming roughly three rounds beforehand with the Vampiric Tutor, and will counter the Crucible, leaving you with a weak Chains (they get a brainstorm), a Strip Mine, and the top of your deck.

Basically, any of these methods of playing the hand gets ripped apart by a lucid opponent with a Force of Will. In this case, I opt for 3) (b): Vampiric tutor for other followed by Crucible of Worlds. Your opponent will likely smell Strip Mine recursion and Force the Crucible if he or she has it; this clears the path for other. The question is: what should other be? Given that you're holding a 2 cc lock part, Chalice of the Void seems like a poor target, but it might still be the best play to be honest. Brainstorm is one of the most likely cards to get pitched to Force of Will in this instance, meaning that Chains is going to be suboptimal (if it wasn't already). Other options I see are Gorilla Shaman and Smokestack. Smokestack is the likely target, because of how much better it gets if your Crucible resolves, but Shaman has it's merits, notably that it starts wrecking mana havoc next turn, whereas Smokestack doesn't start until turn three. I can't say if either better than Chalice for two simply because I don't have enough experience with Chains. These tutor targets, naturally, are dependent on your deck.

The major problem with my play is that it forces you to use up the most versatile card in your hand with the least information, but this is the flaw of the hand in general: it is inherently weak without the threat the Vampiric Tutor provides, but we need to burn the tutor before we can optimize our information to ensure it resolves and this hand doesn't fall apart. To be honest, without knowledge of when and how the "7th irrellevant card" will become relevant, I would seriously consider mulliganing this hand. Again, I'm going to point to my cop out and warn you that being unfamiliar with Chains may cause me to grossly underestimate the power of this hand. Oh, and it's 3:30 am.

I'll edit for readability/reasoning that only makes sense at 3:30 am tomorrow.

[vroman]

I play in St Louis. the majority of our weekly tournaments are infi proxy, so people can play anything they want, meaning yes lots of workshop. also theres a large cabal of control slaver players, and even some food chain players who side in welders against workshop. welders are present in like 66% of the field here.

m-tutor seems allright. stax isnt necesarily concerned w pure card advantage. after all, they can draw as many cards as they desire, so long as they never actually get anything in play. so your going down a card to fetch something that will wreck their board is perfectly fine. but when portals legal it should get the boot immediately for imp seal.

Ive never been impressed w tangle wire, its has always seemed narrow. Ive only had it work well against drain decks. decks like fish will tap their equipment and such. and without welder the effect is really only relevent for one or two turns at the most. unlike smokestack which keeps getting better.

Ive tried ice bridge, and like it better than glimmervoid if you need more than 8 rainbow lands. w crop rotation, smoky, crucible, theres lot of ways to recharge the colored mana.

Im considering pithing needle for my board, basically for one reason: yawgmoths bargain. and Im not talking TPS, no one plays that. there is one rector trix player in the area and I cannot for the love of satan beat that deck. its embarassing. I make the cut every week, but nearly everytime I get paired against f-ing rector trix in the swiss I rack up a loss. even if I get great draws like waste recursion plus chalice @ 1, he always manages to rip a lotus and land drop into rector or something. then he draws his deck and bounces my lock and wins. I realize this deck is nearly nonexistant in the worldwide meta, but its surprisingly resistant to the usual stax anti-combo plan.

[cssamerican]

Oh, this is also really important: one of the absolutely most difficult things about this deck is getting the opponent to counter the right spell.  For example, your hand is;

Mishra's Workshop, Crucible of Worlds, Mox Jet, Vampiric Tutor, Chains of Mephistopheles, and Gemstone Mine and an iirrelevant 7th card.  What do you do?

There are like 3 different ways to play this and I'm still not sure which is best.  Assume both that you are going first and going second and against the deck of your choice.  After I hear what you think I'll give my analysis. 

Another option that no one has presented and it just so happens it would be the way I would play the hand against pretty much any control deck is the following:

Turn 1
Gemstone Mine
Mox Jet
Chains of Mephistopheles (If they have no Force of Will you got a good lock against their draw, if they do have Force of Will they are down 2 cards one of them likely to be Brainstorm. Either way it I am happy.)

Turn 2
During Upkeep tap Mox Jet - Vampiric Tutor-> Crop Rotation
Draw
Tap Gemstone Mine - Sac Gemstone Mine - Crop Rotation-> Strip Mine (If they had a second Force of Will your Crucible of Worlds later on in the turn will surely resolve so the loss of the Gemstone Mine isn't has bad as it looks)
Use Strip Mine to destroy their turn 1 land.
Mishra's Workshop
Crucible of Worlds

If they have no counters they are toast. If they had one Force of Will, they are down two cards and are fighting for their life against a land lockdown. If they had two Force of Wills they are down four cards and I have a Crucible in play with access to a decent amount a mana, which isn't bad for a worst case scenario. One of the key things with this line of play is you never give your opponent any information about your hand. You play Chains and for all he knows that is all you got, he can't pass up Forcing it if he can because he has no reason to. This is key, and it is what makes getting a turn 2 recuring Strip Mine almost unstoppable in this scenario. I would never mulligan this hand given what I know about this situation.

[Lunar]

I really like that particular solution to steves question...the vampiric for crop rotation to draw out a second possible force (or drain if they managed double blue perhaps) is a solid play, and it sill allows for crucible to hit to gain back lost land...very solid.  I find it hard to believe that there is an irrelevant card in their though steve 


As for other comments...while b-tings has scrapped demonic consultation again, ive been having better luck with it than ever...I find it has helped me get locks a full turn earlier or has allowed me to grab say a waste to smoke an underground to allow for a lock piece in the second main after they dont have UU anymore...Mystical doesnt do this...I will also point one last time to end of game situations (say staring down DSC after a tinker made it through) Mystical does nothing off the top of the deck when you only have one more turn....demonic consultation gives me an out that didnt previously exist...this is my primary reason, demonic gives me an answer NOW, not next turn.

The second card choice I had a question on was Time Walk...this hasnt generally been an always included card in stax, mainly for the reason of if you have stack active (but no crucible) its a loss of a permanent...this isnt as big a problem now in ChronStax style builds as I see it...should Time Walk be an auto include now that we dont have tangle wire AND smokestack to deal with together..?  I hadnt seen it in too many lists, until b-tings mentioned it in his last post...

@ vroman

To be clear on something...you dont run 5c stax correct? I was just making sure since it seems that some of your card ideas and situations seem to be more related to uba stax or other stax builds...good information of course and completely relevant, I just wanted to note the differences in some of the builds...perhaps a list of what you are used to would be helpful.

back @ b-tings

If your running mystical then either StP or echoing Truth (or both) should probably be in there, being able to tutor up an instant speed answer is strong and expands mysticals usefulness in this deck.

Meddling Mage is hot against Tinker (or any other 1 shot game winner the opponent might be using) I love dropping him turn 1 or 2 and seeing an opponents face drop when I name their key card that they have...Stopping second turn tinker or first or second turn Oath is very solid and cannot be dismissed if these are decks you are planning on facing (I play against a chunk of oath and gifts in my area so these are two great mage targets) Ive also won a couple of matches against stuff like TPS by naming tendrils after they spent a turn clearing away some lock pieces...it destroys their attempt at bouncing things (for example if you have chalices on 0 and 1 you can name rebuild or echoing truth to shut off the bounc that will allow them to come back and just win, or if they have already used their bounce you name tendrils to stop their only remaining win condition)

@ Clown

My SB has been too precious to hack it up to allow for Burning Wish...I suppose it wouldnt be too big of a change, but im generally winning game 1s where burning wish would be the most useful.  It makes a will out of the SB too expensive, and a random mind twist is just that, completely random, as stated earlier the random boost that even a "bad" will can generate is going to be good enough much of the time.  The best use of wish I can see if for the pyroclasms in the board against fish game 1...that can be pretty useful I suppose...I just dont know if its worth it...? sigh...you just convinced me to switch back to yawg will then say we might drop it for burning wish...

@ Steve and some others

Im still not sold on mox diamond...the deck feels pretty solid already, and I generally have enough accelerants to do whatever anyways...I can just see this going dreadfully wrong on some occasions...Are we dropping lotus petal for this??? perhaps I missed that earlier in the thread...but at least lotus petal can come down late game as an extra permanent, whereas diamond cannot much of the time, unless you are holding lands, which I dont see why you would do in a battle of permanents...

[Godot]

Mishra's Workshop, Crucible of Worlds, Mox Jet, Vampiric Tutor, Chains of Mephistopheles, and Gemstone Mine and an irrellevant 7th card.  What do you do?

There are like 3 different ways to play this and I'm still not sure which is best.  Assume both that you are going first and going second and against the deck of your choice.  After I hear what you think I'll give my analysis. 

I'll throw in my 2 cents as a pretty terrible stax player.

On the play against any Mana Drain deck I think you have to lead with Chains as its the only card that actually puts them under any Duress on turn 1 which what this deck is all about.  At this point, in my mind, your play is highly dependant on what they've done.  If they:
...force Chains and dont get double blue up:  then I tutor for Smokestack and play that on turn 2
...force Chains but get double blue incl. a fetchland:  I tutor up Ancestral Recall and bait with that, hopefully drawing gas or if its countered playing my crucible safely
...force Chains but get double blue w/ an Island:  I tutor up Crap Rotation and lead with that followed by Crucible.
...let Chains resolve:  In this situation my play greatly depends on how many moxen they played on turn 1. 
  ---If they have played no moxen and have a fetch in play, I would probably tutor up 3sphere during my upkeep and cast it this turn. 
  ---If they've played a few Moxen I would probably get Gorilla Shaman and cast it and the crucible this turn. 
  ---If they played an Island of some sort, but didnt have drain mana then I'd lead with the Crucibule and then Vamp at some point in the future. 
  --If they do have drain mana up then I Vamp for Crop Rotation or Shaman during my upkeep depending on which I feel will be stronger in the matchup and what kinda feel I get about how much mana they're holding.

An alternative while on the play is to lead with Crucible and if its countered then you can in all liklihood resolve a turn 2 Smokestack, but this could actually backfire and still puts them under absolutely 0 pressure on turn 1 outside of the mere threat of Strip lock...if only this hand had a Chalice.

On the draw if they dont have Drain mana up I would lead with Crucible and follow it up with Vamp for Strip.  In some circumstances I would lead with Chains, but only if they had just scrolled for Ancestral or tapped down and showed signs of relying on draw for something.  If they do have Drain mana up and Im on the draw then Im really not sure what I'd do.  Probably lead with Vamp for Ancestral hope for multiple threats on turn 2.  Even if you lead with a somewhat weak threat like Chains the two mana you give them puts them on par with your mana development(5 mana on turn 2) and leaves you, outside of the topdeck, only 1 real threat on turn 2 which isnt gonna cut it.

[Smmenen]

I think the trick with that hand is how do you ensure that both Vamp and Crucible resolve.

If you play the Vamp first, then I think Crucible is more likely to resolve becuase they won't think you got strip mine.  But if they even get a hint of Strip Mine, they will try to counter the Crucible.  So I think that Vamp is the card you play before Crucible.  But I think it should probably go like this:

Turn one Chains for the reasons everyone else has said.  But then:

Turn Two: upkeep Vamp and then play Workshop Crucible.  Let them assume you vamped for something like Workshop.  How you play - your demeanor and the time you take to make those decisoins will all impact how they react.  I think that is part of what makes this deck so complicated - how do you get the *real* spell you need to resolve to resolve. 

[Godot]

If you play the Vamp first, then I think Crucible is more likely to resolve becuase they won't think you got strip mine.

Maybe its just cause I've played against the deck so much, but I would counter the Crucible here without a second thought--especially considering that only leaves you only 1 mana available for the remainder of the turn.  As you say, the manner in which you play things is going to affect stuff, but if my opponent has cast Vamp and then follows up with Crucible theres absolutely no way Im going to let that resolve if I have a counter. 

[Lunar]

Demeanor would have to be everything there...if im playing control vs stax...depending on the stax players mana availibility (and my knowledge of whats in the deck) Id have to question the vampiric tutor...why else would you tutor for shop or crucible if you dont have at least wasteland in your hand? or maybe stack in play or in hand...I might go ahead and force the vamp even if I thought it was some weird ploy...poker face right?  with two mana out and chains resolved I might vamp even for something else like stack, or sphere or chalice to bait the counter and let crucible resolve....

The only positive here is that stax doesnt lightly bait counters with crucible so they might think something really nasty is coming next and hold the counter for the smokestack they probably assume is coming next...

I still kinda like the vampiric during upkeep for crop rotation play though...it should almost garuntee the crucible strip mine thing sticks...crop rotation doesnt immediatly give the play away as you shouldnt have played your shop yet and they might have to think thats what your rotating for...

now im rambling...sheesh.

more more more more more, great info everybody.

[b-tings]

Oh, this is also really important: one of the absolutely most difficult things about this deck is getting the opponent to counter the right spell.  For example, your hand is;

Mishra's Workshop, Crucible of Worlds, Mox Jet, Vampiric Tutor, Chains of Mephistopheles, and Gemstone Mine and an iirrelevant 7th card.  What do you do?

There are like 3 different ways to play this and I'm still not sure which is best.  Assume both that you are going first and going second and against the deck of your choice.  After I hear what you think I'll give my analysis. 

Another option that no one has presented and it just so happens it would be the way I would play the hand against pretty much any control deck is the following:

Turn 1
Gemstone Mine
Mox Jet
Chains of Mephistopheles (If they have no Force of Will you got a good lock against their draw, if they do have Force of Will they are down 2 cards one of them likely to be Brainstorm. Either way it I am happy.)

Turn 2
During Upkeep tap Mox Jet - Vampiric Tutor-> Crop Rotation
Draw
Tap Gemstone Mine - Sac Gemstone Mine - Crop Rotation-> Strip Mine (If they had a second Force of Will your Crucible of Worlds later on in the turn will surely resolve so the loss of the Gemstone Mine isn't has bad as it looks)
Use Strip Mine to destroy their turn 1 land.
Mishra's Workshop
Crucible of Worlds

If they have no counters they are toast. If they had one Force of Will, they are down two cards and are fighting for their life against a land lockdown. If they had two Force of Wills they are down four cards and I have a Crucible in play with access to a decent amount a mana, which isn't bad for a worst case scenario. One of the key things with this line of play is you never give your opponent any information about your hand. You play Chains and for all he knows that is all you got, he can't pass up Forcing it if he can because he has no reason to. This is key, and it is what makes getting a turn 2 recuring Strip Mine almost unstoppable in this scenario. I would never mulligan this hand given what I know about this situation.

I KNEW I was missing something.

This play is the strongest option if you lead with Chains (strong in the sense of raw power, although not necessarily the best, as we'll see when we get to Steve's post). This series has the benefit of letting them play a bit before you burn your Tutor, which gives you more information, as well as setting up mana denial a turn earlier without skipping a beat. The only thing I worry about is them not caring about Chains, but forcing the Crucible after you've already commited three other cards to the lock. I'd probably lead with Crucible first, and then Rotate to up your odds of resolving Crucible, although if they don't lead with any moxen, I'd consider leading with the rotation, as Strip Mine might be more powerful than Crucible in this case. My reasoning is that if they're keeping a seven card hand with no acceleration, I would anticipate a Drain on turn two. If they don't have the Force, you're in the clear, but if they do, getting the Strip Mine instead of Crucible gives you a turn to topdeck Smokestack, Chalice for two, Trinisphere, or some other artifact threat. This line of play is again dependent on how much of a threat Chains is, so I don't know whether it's a valid concern or not. An excellent catch on your part either way.

@Lunar, the Crucible - Strip Mine lock will NOT stick if your opponent has a counter in this instance. If you Crop Rotation first, and fetch Strip Mine, your opponent will counter Crucible. If you drop Workshop -> Crucible, they will force the Crop Rotation. This is the major problem with this play.

Regarding my own play, one card I failed to mention is Karn as a tutor target. Presuming they have moxes, turn two Karn is more or less a turn two smokestack that beats, and it makes otherwise dinky lock parts like Sphere of Resistance more threatening with the turn they take off the clock.

As for Demonic Consultation, this might have something to do with the shuffling that kept drawing me Trinisphere and two Shamans every single game. I didn't really think about that at the ungodly hour I wrote last night's post at. I really think the card *should* be good, and I am a big fan of it's ability to get a turn one chalice for 0. I will give it another go, but it's skating on thin ice.

Regarding what Steve said, I hadn't considered the possibility of them simply NOT smelling Strip Mine recursion. I got locked into thinking about optimal play and just how the CARDS interact, not how the opponents interact. A very important lesson to carry with you about optimal play not necessarily corresponding to the mechanics of the cards.

Steve's play does a much better job of maximizing Chains, whereas I more or less ignore it as a threat, making this a five-card hand with two irrelevent cards. However, I'm still worried that you're more or less all-in on Crucible at this point, especially if many players think akin to Godot, whereas this thinking is exactly what my play attempts to exploit.

I unfortunately can't contribute very much meaningful material to this discussioin without a better understanding of Chains (I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record about it, but I really want to hammer in that I have an excuse for having no idea what I'm doing this time), so I'm going to see if I can get some testing in with it (Friday, probably) and I'll bring these plays up again then. If I don't post until then, good luck to those of you going to Chicago, and I hope to see some 5 colour Stax peeking out of the top 8.

[Lunar]

perhaps im missing something in how you worded it, but I agree with the play options the same way you do...

@Lunar, the Crucible - Strip Mine lock will NOT stick if your opponent has a counter in this instance. If you Crop Rotation first, and fetch Strip Mine, your opponent will counter Crucible. If you drop Workshop -> Crucible, they will force the Crop Rotation. This is the major problem with this play.

I was agreeing with the same play options youre agreeing with??? thus im confused about your statement...perhaps I worded it incorectly in my post...

The play works (this is basically a copy of what has been stated)

First turn chains....if it sticks and they are cool with it (maybe look at their demeanor like steve suggested) then you might question what else they have...IF they force chains turn 1 and have drain mana open on your next turn (island, sapphire eh) then the play should be vampiric during upkeep (see if its forced) then crop rotation (if this is countered then you still have shop crucible at least to replay the gemstone mine you just sacked for crop) if it resolves grab strip mine, then strip the island...pass priority into your second main phase and play workshop crucible....I think this is best if you feel they have drain ready or dont have a second force...even if they have second force, they are most likely forcing crop rotation so crucible should stick...I find it hard to believe they wouldnt force either vampiric or crop rotation if they have force...remember you havnt played workshop yet so they dont know if you are even able to play crucible...for all they know you are rotating for the shop to play things...if they have a counter they will counter this...The whole point against what you said to me is that crop rotation should be a must counter for them...even if crop rotation doesnt stick and you cannot get the soft lock right then, you are still in a solid position having forced them to drop at least 2 cards to force you (possibly 4 if they forced chains as well) and you at the least have crucible in play to back up your mana base and proceed from there to do some other cool things...by this time either that 7th card has become relevant, or you start to pull things off the top that are relevant...

hope that explains things better on my part...

[b-tings]

It wasn't poorly worded on your part; rather, I simply don't see Crop Rotation as a must-counter without Crucible like you do. The way I see it, they wouldn't force your Crop Rotation. They've seen you Vampiric Tutor, and I doubt most players would see Vampiric Tutor -> Crop Rotation as a likely set of plays, when you could just Vampiric Tutor for the land you need. So they would probably assume that you've set up the best card in your deck in this situation, and that Crop Rotation was just another card in your hand. Unless they beleive that you're rotating in a key land for the spell you tutored up, AND have a dangerous follow-up, I can't see them forcing it. Having said that, I'm certainly no expert with Gifts; perhaps Steve can chime in as to what a Gifts player would do to react to this series of plays given different options.

On a completely unrelated note: if I am giving Mystical Tutor a whirl, should I try a Naturalize over Seal of Cleansing? Are there any other strong utility effects I should try out?

For the record, Naturalize makes the cut over Disenchant because, against Oath, Stax, or another deck with artifact/enchantment threats, it gives you the ability to Naturalize off your Mox Emerald and cast Balance off a lonely coloured land. Get in there, .00000000018712934532164% game win boost.

[cssamerican]

It wasn't poorly worded on your part; rather, I simply don't see Crop Rotation as a must-counter without Crucible like you do. The way I see it, they wouldn't force your Crop Rotation. They've seen you Vampiric Tutor, and I doubt most players would see Vampiric Tutor -> Crop Rotation as a likely set of plays, when you could just Vampiric Tutor for the land you need. So they would probably assume that you've set up the best card in your deck in this situation, and that Crop Rotation was just another card in your hand. Unless they beleive that you're rotating in a key land for the spell you tutored up, AND have a dangerous follow-up, I can't see them forcing it. Having said that, I'm certainly no expert with Gifts; perhaps Steve can chime in as to what a Gifts player would do to react to this series of plays given different options.

So at this point your opponent has Forced the Chains, played a land and a mox and has have 4 cards in hand. We can assume at least one of those cards is another land, and for this scenario we will say he has another Force of Will with a blue card to pitch. First let me say, unless you have a very specific reason, Forcing the Vampiric Tutor is dumb, because you are giving your opponent two for one in the card advantage department. At least when you counter what they retrieve you get two for two. So with that beind said, your opponent should allow this Vampiric Tutor to resolve because he is going to assume given the board position and the past action on turn one the following:
Vampiric - Strip Mine: This doesn't make much sense because the Stax player wouldn't be able to cast anything, and striping one land isn't that powerfull of a play at this stage given what we know.
Vampiric - Black Lotus - Eye of Chaos: The control player is better to counter the Eye of Chaos because he is getting three for two CA.
Vampiric - Black Lotus - Tinker: The control player is better to counter the Tinker because he is getting four for two CA.
Vampiric - Land - Chains: In this case you have to assume they used Vampiric Tutor to grab another Chains, counter the Chains because your are getting two for two CA.
Vampiric - Workshop - Smokestack, Crucible, or Trinisphere: This is only a likely play if they are tutoring for the artifact because otherwise the Stax player kept a bad hand, so you counter the artifact. This is probably the only scenario where it might seem like a good move to counter the Vampiric Tutor as a possible way to keep a Mishra's Workshop off the board, but when you weigh it against all the other scenarios your just better off countering the artifact even if they actually kept a sub par hand and needed to tutor for a land turn two.

Now he has watched you play a Vampiric Tutor and by reasoning the most likely plays has let it resolve. Now he sees you play Crop Rotation so he starts to go through the only two likely plays:
Crop Rotaion for Strip Mine: This still doesn't seem like a likely play in the mind of the Control player. There isn't very many scenarios where this is going to a solid play because the Staxs player would be giving his only multi-colored mana source for a temporary set-back for the control player, and it doesn't explain the casting of Vampiric Tutor during the Upkeep. Because this line of play is highly unlikely the control player has to look at the Crop Rotation for Mishra's Workshop as the obvious play.
Crop Rotaion for Mishra's Workshop: This is the most likely play from the control players point of view. He must assume the Stax player used the Vampiric Tutor to get an artifact with the idea that you have no more Force of Will or that if you did you would have counter the Vampiric Tutor; therefore, it must be safe for him to cast Crop Rotation. So when the Stax player cast Crop Rotation the control player sees an opportunity to cripple the Stax player. With one counter the control player sees removing the Stax players only land AND making the card he just tutored dead. No control player can pass that up.

So the worst case scenario is your opponent has a land and mox in play with two cards in hand, at least one them likely to be another land. You have a Mox, Workshop, and a Crucible of Worlds in play, one card in hand, and one Gemstone Mine in the grave that can be played next turn. It is also important to realize that your graveyard is now loaded with tutors so a Yawgmoth's Will in the next couple of turns will very likely win the game for you. Seeing that Yawgmoth's Will is the only one irrelevant card I can think of in this scenario, thinking about your position for a turn four or five Yawgmoth's Will was also is factored in my decision

All that being said I would love to here what Steve or Kevin thinks about this line of play.

[Lunar]

thanks for helping me with that rundown there cssamerican...worded much better than I could have done it really...hope that helps b-tings understand my line of thought as well...the best case here is amazing as well since if they dont have the second force (or a drain online) then you now have crucible strip mine online and active already...

I suppose this is still at least a little theorhetical since we dont know exactly what the control player has or what that particular players line of thought is...but if im playing control and have limited options I would love to force the crop rotation (or drain it maybe) to stop any further plays...this is even more juicy for the control player if rather than a 7th irrelevant card it was a mull down to 6 hand for the stax player...stopping crop rotation-->workshop has to seem optimal.

Naturalize is decent I suppose if you really want to optimize just the mystical...only tradeoff really seems to be that you lose permanents in the form of seals, and naturalize has to be used at a certain time...seal you can drop whenever you have any extra mana and can just sit there and look scary...that being said do you really NEED to mystical up a naturalize often in your meta??? How often do you find yourself in that situation where it would matter...How about vs. Demonic Consultation for Seal of Cleansing on your turn? You can always demonic or vampiric for the seals as well...

[b-tings]

So at this point your opponent has Forced the Chains, played a land and a mox and has have 4 cards in hand. We can assume at least one of those cards is another land, and for this scenario we will say he has another Force of Will with a blue card to pitch. First let me say, unless you have a very specific reason, Forcing the Vampiric Tutor is dumb, because you are giving your opponent two for one in the card advantage department. At least when you counter what they retrieve you get two for two. So with that beind said, your opponent should allow this Vampiric Tutor to resolve because he is going to assume given the board position and the past action on turn one the following:
Vampiric - Strip Mine: This doesn't make much sense because the Stax player wouldn't be able to cast anything, and striping one land isn't that powerfull of a play at this stage given what we know.
Vampiric - Black Lotus - Eye of Chaos: The control player is better to counter the Eye of Chaos because he is getting three for two CA.
Vampiric - Black Lotus - Tinker: The control player is better to counter the Tinker because he is getting four for two CA.
Vampiric - Land - Chains: In this case you have to assume they used Vampiric Tutor to grab another Chains, counter the Chains because your are getting two for two CA.
Vampiric - Workshop - Smokestack, Crucible, or Trinisphere: This is only a likely play if they are tutoring for the artifact because otherwise the Stax player kept a bad hand, so you counter the artifact. This is probably the only scenario where it might seem like a good move to counter the Vampiric Tutor as a possible way to keep a Mishra's Workshop off the board, but when you weigh it against all the other scenarios your just better off countering the artifact even if they actually kept a sub par hand and needed to tutor for a land turn two.

Now he has watched you play a Vampiric Tutor and by reasoning the most likely plays has let it resolve. Now he sees you play Crop Rotation so he starts to go through the only two likely plays:
Crop Rotaion for Strip Mine: This still doesn't seem like a likely play in the mind of the Control player. There isn't very many scenarios where this is going to a solid play because the Staxs player would be giving his only multi-colored mana source for a temporary set-back for the control player, and it doesn't explain the casting of Vampiric Tutor during the Upkeep. Because this line of play is highly unlikely the control player has to look at the Crop Rotation for Mishra's Workshop as the obvious play.
Crop Rotaion for Mishra's Workshop: This is the most likely play from the control players point of view. He must assume the Stax player used the Vampiric Tutor to get an artifact with the idea that you have no more Force of Will or that if you did you would have counter the Vampiric Tutor; therefore, it must be safe for him to cast Crop Rotation. So when the Stax player cast Crop Rotation the control player sees an opportunity to cripple the Stax player. With one counter the control player sees removing the Stax players only land AND making the card he just tutored dead. No control player can pass that up.

So the worst case scenario is your opponent has a land and mox in play with two cards in hand, at least one them likely to be another land. You have a Mox, Workshop, and a Crucible of Worlds in play, one card in hand, and one Gemstone Mine in the grave that can be played next turn. It is also important to realize that your graveyard is now loaded with tutors so a Yawgmoth's Will in the next couple of turns will very likely win the game for you. Seeing that Yawgmoth's Will is the only one irrelevant card I can think of in this scenario, thinking about your position for a turn four or five Yawgmoth's Will was also is factored in my decision

All that being said I would love to here what Steve or Kevin thinks about this line of play.

Firstly, you're assuming that your opponent will Force the Chains, which is something I'm not willing to do without testing Chains in this matchup. If your opponent forces either the Crop Rotation or the Crucible, you're left with no pressure on their mana base at all. So let's say they let Chains resolve, and then Force the Crop Rotation under your line of thinking. At this point, you have Workshop Crucible Mox in play, with a Rotation, Vampiric Tutor, and Gemstone Mine in your graveyard, with a hand of "irrellevant card," to the control player's land mox 4 cards. This brings us to what the control player kept. If they kept two brainstorms and a fetchland, they would not have let Chains resolve, unless Force was the eighth card. Even if they had one brainstorm and a fetch, they probably would have countered it, never mind Ancestral Recall. Since they wouldn't be keeping a hand without some kind of search, we can probably assume they have some combination of: Merchant Scroll, Impulse, FoF, Gifts, and Tutors. Since they played Land Mox pass, unless they Impulse EoT, we can eliminate Merchant Scroll, Demonic Tutor, and Impulse. You've already put them on the third land, so they play it next turn. Now they have Mana Drain mana up, and some combination of FoF, Gifts, and Mirage Tutors, while you have no pressure on their manabase whatsoever. If they drop another land, or a mox, or Mana Drain whatever you draw off the top, you're in deep trouble. As it stands, you're playing off the top until you're irrellevant card becomes relevant; if it's Will, like you assume, you need to draw at least one more non-shop source of mana (along with the Gemstone Mine tricks you can play with Crucible) in order to recast Crop Rotation (removing the land you sacrifice, so no Crucible tricks with it), and that Crop Rotation can't fetch Strip Mine if you want to cast Vampiric Tutor. This all holds true even if they go down to two cards by forcing Chains; they're still going to hit Mana Drain mana before you resolve a genuine threat, and they're going to be a land drop away from hitting Gifts/FoF mana to power through you, but now you can't luck into them hitting something like two Brainstorms in a row off the top, and any Brainstorms they kept will help them optimize to resolve a big spell like Gifts or Fact.

I put it to you thusly: What can you draw with a board of Crucible Mox Chains of Mephistopheles, with a Gemstone Mine in the graveyard, that is threatening to a control player with land land mox and four cards in hand? Compare this to Strip Mine Mox Chains Workshop, and count your outs.

The relevant threats you can peel off the top in both situations (working off my current list) are: Smokestack, Chalice for Two, Karn, Explosives, and Trinisphere. The relevant cards exclusive to your line of play are Ancestral Recall, Demonic Tutor, Gorilla Shaman, and Strip Mine. The relevant cards exclusive to my line of play are the two Crucibles still left in the deck. I'm not sure how to classify Wastelands in both cases, but we'll consider them half of an exclusive threat to your situation, given that they're not bad in my situation and that recurring Wasteland isn't amazing against Gifts anyways. I think this should be more like a third, but that makes things harder, so we'll throw in the fact that a Smokestack is more threatening in your situation. That gives you six exclusive threats to my two, or, since we've seen 8 cards in our deck, 4/52 or a 7.69% better chance to hit a threat. Your opponet will have seen 9 cards of their deck by now (assuming neither scroll nor impulse), so you're taking a 7.69% better chance to hit a threat against an opponent who has had a 1-((56!/47!)/(60!/51!)) of drawing Mana Drain, or about a 48.8% chance for them to have seen it.

I still disagree with your line of thinking on them forcing Crop Rotation; you've tutored up the best card in your deck, but what can you cast here off a single workshop? Unless you've got another land in hand, you can cast Crucible, Trinisphere, or Chalice for 1. With a land in hand, you can drop it and cast Chalice for two or Smokestack, going down to one card. In order for a control player to force the Crop Rotation, they would have to assume you've got a land in hand, since neither 3sphere, Crucible, or Chalice for 1 is threatening at this stage in the game. That leaves you with two cards. They then have to further assume that both are threats they cannot handle in order to Force the Crop Rotation. I think, if you're honestly looking to get Crop Rotation forced, you should lead with Crucible. But, as I pointed out already, I'd probably rather get my Crucible Forced in this instance, and hope I hit a genuine threat like Smokestack or Chalice for two off the top, with Strip Mine keeping them off Mana Drain for a turn.

Of course, we don't have to commit to your line of play until we see them Force the Chains. By leading with the Chains, you leave open both Steve's and your line of play. If they counter the Chains, and drop more than one artifact mana source (or if the source they drop is a Sol Ring or a Sapphire (actually, I'd probably go with your line regardless of whether or not they Force Chains if they led with land Sapphire), your line of play is stronger, but again I would rather resolve the Crop Rotation than the Crucible. If they only drop a single artifact mana, I would go for Steve's line of play, doing my best to look relieved when they OK the Vampiric Tutor. This line of play leaves you in a stronger situation than yours if they counter the Crucible, and is otherwise equal, except for tutoring for Rebuild or another artifact mana source + land drop, since Rebuild is the only 3 mana card to keep Gifts off, and both plays keep them off the magic number four equally well.

Regarding my line of play, specifically Mox Jet Vampiric Tutor (for Karn, likely, but we'll leave the input as "other threat" for now) Workshop Crucible, this is at the very least a little fishy. Assuming an intelligent opponent, they will notice the order you played your spells in, particularly the extremely strange mainphase Vampiric Tutor, and probably come to the conclusion that you wanted to resolve the Tutor and have them Force the Crucible. This might lead to them leaving the Crucible alone, and forcing the "other threat" you tutored for. Given this, I think it makes the most sense to lead with Chains, with the above intents of either Steve's or cssamerican's plays, depending on how your opponent leads. But that only holds true between the hours of 9 am and 2 am; at 3 in the morning, my play makes perfect sense  .

Naturalize is definately inferior to Seal of Cleansing by itself, but I'm not sure if the ability to Mystical Tutor for it makes it stronger, especially since I'm probably only running a single of either. Demonic Consultation is garbage if this is the case, and is still on thin ice with me. Metagame considerations I'm pushing to the sidelines until we get the results of SCG:Chicago.

[Lunar]

It all depends on the control deck you are facing to be true....I dont believe we ever said it had to be Meandeck gifts right?  What if its Gifted.fr and they are running brainstorms and thirsts and furnaces to draw cards with (ancestral too) If they have Force this control player must force chains...I really think that if they have force they will force chains at least 80% of the time (even if it is meandeck gifts and they have non-draw advantage spells) This leads us to our current situation...

we have vampiric, workshop, crucible in hand and some irrelevant stuff, with gemstone mine mox jet in play, chains is in your yard...

The control player if they have another force in their hand (probably unlikely IMO, but its possible) or were able to play island sapphire and have drain mana open will still likely let vampiric during the upkeep go through...this leaves us with a possibility of gemstone mine/workshop for mana, 4 total...the control player will see only a gemstone mine however...he has to ask himself what on earth did he just tutor for...he will then look at his own hand and wonder what he is going to do if he must drop down to 2 cards in hand...does he have gifts? will he want to drain something big to play it next turn (if its island sapphire then hes going to want to hit something, anything to let him gifts during his turn...) If he only has force, FoF, Island, Gifts, then if we hit him with crop rotation/for strip mine, he is at 2 mana availible, with an island and a mox and gifts + whatever he top decks...not good odds...you cannot let crop rotation hit strip mine in this case...beyond that you are going to look at the stax players position of 4 cards in hand + only 1 gemstone mine in play (jet is tapped) you are going to think to yourself "the most mana he can generate right now from what i know is 4 if he crop rotates for workshop" does this mean you let shop come through and have force for the possible smokestack??? A very good possibility...but what this opens up is that if the stax player brings out strip mine instead of workshop then your hand is dead in the water...2 mana sources and only a 4cc spell and whatever you top deck is not good......

So does the control player force the crop rotation if you play it on the gemstone??? I still really think they have too...the possibility of strip mine coming up have to outweigh the possibly forcing of a smokestack after they fetch workshop...fetching workshop also leaves the stax player with at least 4 mana next turn which means probably some nasty stuff coming down that turn...even if you can get into mana drain for your turn the stax player should be able to play one or two spells (perhaps the irrelevant card has become relevant (say it was wasteland and their second land was underground or volcanic, or say it was a second chalice that you can now pay into to drop at 2, plus whatever else you have topdecked)

If the control player lets crop rotation resolve assuming they will just force the actual important threat, you can fetch strip mine anyways (even knowing they will force the crucible) and strip their lone island leaving them at a very low mana count. 

I think then b-tings that you are saying that the crop rotation is the more important threat??? Should we vampiric for strip mine during upkeep rather than crop rotation and then play shop crucible hoping to get crucible forced? That might not even happen since they might not assume immediatly that you have strip mine (certainly you cannot play strip mine this turn at this point, next turn then you might have them under strip/crucible lock if they havnt found a way to get rid of crucible or if they forced it...by vampiricing for strip mine and still trying to play crucible that turn you give them a turn to find enough mana to do something broken on you...I dont like giving them a turn....

What are the finishing results of cssamericans play?

IF they countered Chains (lets assume since this is all theorhetical anyways that they have)

You vampiric for crop rotation and they force it....this leaves you with mox, shop, crucible in play, and what may or may not be a relevant card during the next turn...this isnt so bad...the control player would be down to only two cards in hand, one of which is a land.

Or

You vampiric for crop rotation and they dont force it...you fetch strip mine with it, and proceed to play shop/crucible which they do force...this leaves you with mox, strip mine and what may or may not be a relevant card in hand...this is bad...since now even though they only have 2 cards in hand (1 land) that gets them to 3 mana possible, plus a top deck and perhaps something juicy (possibility of mana drain as well...)

Obviously if we go this route we must play crop rotation first, we dont want crucible forced if at least crop didnt resolve (if they have 3 forces then well that sucks, but at least then they would be at zero cards eh...)

IF we go the vampiric for strip mine route....

This route we would vampiric for strip mine, then play workshop crucible??? if it gets forced then we are left with no worthwhile permanents and without strip mine till next turn...this is kinda steves example...he said he wanted vamp to resolve which I think it will, but I really think you better have a good poker face to pull off the crucible sticking...the control player HAS to ask himself why you would waste a vampiric to play crucible if you dont have strip mine here (when you could have vamped for something juicky like smokestack here)

This leaves us with strip mine/irrelevant in hand, and nothing worthwhile in play if crucible ends up getting countered...this is not so hot since now they will get to at least 3 mana next turn plus a top deck and such...this is enough for them to scroll into ancestral if need be and we dont want that to happen...

I (like b-tings doesnt get forcing the crop rotation) dont get NOT forcing the crucible, even after the vampiric during upkeep...I think if I was playing the control id force it every time if I could...id have to realize that im playing against stax as well and know that if the mana amounts are equal I (the control player) will get ahead sooner with my draw and tutors before the stax player gets going again (depending on top decking for both decks of course...)

As the control here ill take land land mox, with 2 random blue cards in hand against shop, mox gemstone, 2 cards in the stax players hand any day...

If I had to force the crop rotation then im still at the same for me, but now most likely the shop player will be at shop, mox, gemstone, crucible...OR...if I let crop rotation go and forced crucible then im at land mox with 2 cards in hand against mox workshop, 2 cards in hand...while the stax player is worse off here than in example #2 from the non-crop rotation example, the control player is also down a land, which could be more detrimental in the long run by a long shot...(strip mine is already in the yard as well for a top decked or tutored crucible later)

The stax player has to be happy with mox shop 2 cards vs mox and maybe island with 2 cards in hand next turn for the control player....

The control cannot let crop rotation resolve (the only difference is if you have drain mana online then you can drain the crop rotation and play out your land in hand to drain up gifts...but thats a whole different scenario)

That being said....

I hate these theorhetical hand discussions because it might be different if you played the same hand for yourself 100 times against different control decks with different hands....it also makes a difference if you know who your playing against and know how to read your opponent...there are a billion different ways to go about this...

What if we dont vampiric during upkeep and topdeck something amazing? What if they let chains resolve and then are able to play tinker/collosus on their first turn??? there are too many whatifs and it can change every game...



Moving on........................... .......................

Anybody got any other questions/ideas for 5c Stax before tomarrow??? I know most of us are playing in either SCG, Eudemonia, or OgreCon tommorow or Sunday and any last minute stuff would be helpful.....

Anybody get anymore testing with mox diamond in??? Has anybody messed around with dropping from 28 to 27 mana sources??? How good are some of the card choices (like pithing needle, price of glory, demonic consultation vs mystical?) How about echoing truth vs swords to plowshares? (how about one of each?) any other ideas?

Anybody get any other tech against fish? How about shop aggro? (I know I know we already have great answers for that, but it doesnt hurt to ask)

later guys.

[Dozer]

So does the control player force the crop rotation if you play it on the gemstone??? [...]
If the control player lets crop rotation resolve assuming they will just force the actual important threat, you can fetch strip mine anyways (even knowing they will force the crucible) and strip their lone island leaving them at a very low mana count.

This is a very interesting question you all brought up here. From the point of view of someone who has never played Stax in his life, but some sort of control deck ever since, my first thought was "why Force the Crop Rotation?". Intuitively, I'd not do it. On second thoughts, I wouldn't, either.

If you get Strip Mine, we are both at one Mox each -> parity. Only if I had no second land in my hand would I have to counter the Crop Rotation, since I can't afford to miss the second drop, but against Stax, I shouldn't have kept that hand anyway. I know you haven't dropped a land yet, so I would want to counter the important card that will come off that.

If you get Workshop, you'll likely play something off it which I can counter. You have a Shop in play, though, which is not necessarily good, but I know you haven't made a land drop yet. I cannot, should not assume that you are missing that drop, so I must assume you have another land in hand which might be a Workshop. Rotation for Shop indicates you have some sort of big play, either Crucible or something else with the help of your land drop.

If you get Academy, it might interfere with my long term plans, but your gain is short and I can Wasteland you later via the Legend rule. Fair enough.

If I counter the Crop Rotation, you gain some valuable information about my hand: If I don't have a Force but a Mana Drain, I am likely to Drain the Rotation for a small mana boost and continuous UU. If I don't have a second land in hand, I am likely to counter, too. If I have Academy and another Mox, I will probably do it as well, but that depends on my gut instinct. Those are the scenarios where I counter the Rotation. Generally, I will let it through and deal with whatever is coming behind it. Oh, and if I am playing Meandeck Gifts and don't have a Brainstorm in hand, I will not counter Chains. Merchant Scroll/ Mystical + Gifts and the Spinning Top if you have it are so good against Chains.

I totally agree, though, that cssamerican's play (Crop Rotation for Strip) is the strongest one with that hand. It is the one I'd like to see least from the other side.

Dozer

[Lunar]

yeh, like I said, even IF you have another force after forcing chains, it leaves you with a depleted hand, and if you have just let strip mine come into play you are probably only at 1 land + mox after the strip mine activates...as a stax player im pretty happy with this situation, especially since I still have workshop/jet to play into whatever I pull off the top in the coming few turns while the control player has to top deck a land to get mana drain online...(if he even has one left after 2 force of wills) and is no immediate position to do anything broken (like gifts for example)

What if you are reasonably sure the control player doesnt have another counter?? Then what route would you take...? Would there be any question as to this being the correct route of play?

[b-tings]

yeh, like I said, even IF you have another force after forcing chains...

We just had a long-time control player tell us he wouldn't Force the Chains without a Brainstorm in hand. Even then, it doesn't seem all that threatening, and one Brainstorm can be pitched to Force if he has other gas.

Steve, it's your baby; seeing things as you would from the Gifts seat, how would you play it out?

[PucktheCat]

Kevin had tried Meddling Mages in Stax sometime last year with Standstills to see how it worked.  I was the one who suggested we try them again in the board for the reason that Mage stops Tinker, period.  In the Eye of Chaos primary flaw is that.  So mage was a good sb card for stopping Tinker.

I don't understand this at all.  You cut Welder, which in addition to its other advantages is often a very strong answer to Tinker, and you add Meddling Mage?  Meddling Mage is harder to cast than Welder, has to come down before Tinker resolves, and can't do anything to advance the lock beyond stopping Tinker.

What decks are you bringing in a Tinker answer against?  I would guess Gifts and CS.  Any others?  Doesn't Welder particularly shine against these relatively counter-heavy decks?

Leo

[Smmenen]

yeh, like I said, even IF you have another force after forcing chains...

We just had a long-time control player tell us he wouldn't Force the Chains without a Brainstorm in hand. Even then, it doesn't seem all that threatening, and one Brainstorm can be pitched to Force if he has other gas.

Steve, it's your baby; seeing things as you would from the Gifts seat, how would you play it out?

Well, now that SCG Chicago has started, I can finally talk about the match in more detail.  With Gifts I would probably force the chains.  My approach with Gifts against stax is EXTREMELY aggressive.  In my opinion, if you try to play control, you will lose.

Just as an example.  I was playing a game where I was going first against Stax but I did not have FoW.  My hand was like this:

Turn One:
Sapphire, Brainstorm
My hand had the following cards BEFORE The brainstorm resolved:
Merchant Scroll, Merchant Scroll, Gifts Ungiven, Rebuild, Underground Sea, Demonic Tutor Mox Pearl, Island

So what do you put back?  I put back, after some careful consideration, the Underground Sea and the Demonic Tutor.  I then played the Pearl and the Island and I merchant scrolled for FORCE OF WILL.

Kevin thinks for a while. Then he plays Mishra's WOrkshop, Trinisphere.   I think for a while.  I am holding Rebuild.  He didn't play any moxen.  I should just let it resolve.

I let it resolve and I either lost the game becuase of it or barely won a game I should have had locked.  BUT NOT FOR THE REASONS YOU THINK.

I'll try to break it down for you. 

Remember, I put back the land,  I untapped and I draw a card and it wasn't a land.  So I missed a land drop.  I had to pass the turn so I could rebuild on his endstep. 

HE played something unimportant and I EOT rebuilded.  I untapped and play Merchant Scroll Ancestral and my hand was like this when I passed:

FOW, FoW, FoW, Gifts, TIme Walk, another blue card and I think one other spell.

The point is that I had TOO many Force of Wills. 

If I had FOW the Trinisphere, I could have turn two Ancestraled into more FOW and then keep the way clear one more turn and then Gifted and won by turn 4 or so or just used Drains and then combo out.

The point I'm making is that playing control is the incorrect role for Gifts against Stax.  The correct role is combo relying more on FOW than Drain.  If you rely on Drain, you will lose because that is the point of 5c stax - it is amazing against Drain. 

[b-tings]

I agree with Steve's role assessment, but the example seems kind of poor to me. Certainly, drawing too many Forces was unfortunate, but it seems more like an abberition than something to play around. Had he played aggresively (Force pitching either Rebuild, or Gifts Ungiven, because he said specifically that the plan would be turn two ancestral) and NOT drawn into Forces, he would have opened himself up to something problematic, like Workshop -> Chalice for three. Even Chalice for two can give you all sorts of fits, depending of course on your ability to draw Mirage tutors -> Tinker.

Generally, it is correct to play aggressively against Stax, but when you've already drawn your Rebuild, you don't have to outpace them since you can just trump all their lock parts except In the Eye of Chaos or Choke. Since he presumably has no moxen (unless he's pulling the most masterful slow-roll of all time), neither of these is a threat until his turn four. There's no need to try and combo out too fast with your reset button so easily pushed.

[Smmenen]

Well, I didn't mean to say that I drew too many forces.  Remember I tutored for the first one.  The point is that I was too conservative with them.

Trading FOW and a blue card for a tempo boost is worth it.  Instead, I did'nt want to "waste" a fow on a card that I could deal with and the result was that I lost tempo.  That was the mistake.