Aggro Workshop vs. Cerebal Assasin

[FallenOmnipotent]

Aggro Workshop-
Abuses Mishra's workshop and power out artifacts such as Juggernaught, Chalise of the void, trinisphere, Triskelion, Sundering titan, ect.  Also uses Gobin Welder for recurtion of these artifacts.

Cerebal Assasin-
Still in it's early stages of evolution.  The deck, in my opinion, has not been fully developed; the biuld of the deck has not been perfected.  This deck abuses Bazaar of Bagdad to draw alot of cards and dump nice fatties into it's graveyard such as Sundering Titan.  It also uses Squee, Goblin naboo as a part of it's drawing ingine in combo with Bazaar of Bagdad.  The biuld includes 1 copy of Worldgorger Dragon and 1 kill condition for the WGD combo.  It uses animate dead to recur these creatures or set the WGD combo off.  (WGD combo- gives you infinate mana)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My t1 scrub meta-game (10-proxy tournement):
1 (W)orse (T)han (F)ish
1 R/w Gobs ~white for disenchant and stp
1 Old skool WW ~with whipcorders and glorious anthem
1 Draw 7 ~ABS budget biuld + semi-power
1 The Rock ~t1.5 biuld with t1 tutors
1-4 Random decks

I've been playing Oath recently and have been dominating my meta-game... (not so hard to do).  However, there has grown alot of oath hate with natralizes/disenchants, swords to plowshares, ect.  So I desided I need a change of decks.  I think I've narrowed it own to: Parfait, Ceberal Assasin, or Aggro Worshop.

Everyone told me Parfait sux and is not worth playing.  So I'll scratch that off for now.

Aggro Workshop is very eassy to play, and durring goldfishing, it looks very powerful.  Note I have little expirance with T1 decks.  It is weaker than it use to be senice Trinisphere was restricted.  I'm not sure my biuld is optimal, and would like seggestions for it.

Cerebal Assasin (C.A.) is a really stange deck.  As I've stated before, I believe the deck to have alot of potential, however, the optimal deck biuld has not been found.  I've been told that this deck would be prefered for my meta-game.  But in my opinion, Aggro Workshop seems stronger.  In contrast, CA is more consistant at getting trike + welder combo beacuse it draws SOOOOOOO much.

My biulds:
~AGGRO WORKSHOP~

// Mana
        2 Polluted Delta
        1 Island
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        2 Flooded Strand
        4 Wasteland
        1 Mana Vault
        3 Volcanic Island
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Strip Mine
// Artifacts
        1 Trinisphere
        3 Crucible Of Worlds
        4 Chalice of the Void
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
// Creatures
        4 Triskelion
        1 Sundering Titan
        3 Razormane Masticore
// Spells
        4 Brainstorm
        4 Thirst For Knowledge
        1 Ancestral Recall
        4 Juggernaut
        4 Goblin Welder
        1 Tinker


~Cerebal Assasin~

 // Lands
     4  City of Brass
     4  Gemstone Mine
     1  Tolarian Academy
     4  Bazaar of Baghdad
     2  Seat of the Synod

 // Creatures
     4  Goblin Welder
     4  Squee, Goblin Nabob
     2  Triskelion
     3  Sundering Titan
     1  Worldgorger Dragon
     1  Shivan Hellkite

 // Spells
     1  Black Lotus
     1  Mana Crypt
     1  Sol Ring
     1  Mox Sapphire
     4  Animate Dead
     1  Mystical Tutor
     4  Thirst for Knowledge
     1  Tinker
     1  Yawgmoth's Will
     1  Demonic Tutor
     1  Mox Ruby
     1  Vampiric Tutor
     1  Ancestral Recall
     1  Time Walk
     1  Possessed Portal
     4  Force of Will
     1  Mox Emerald
     1  Mox Jet
     1  Mox Pearl
     2  Intuition

 // Sideboard
 SB: 3  Worldgorger Dragon
 SB: 2  Platinum Angel
 SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast
 SB: 2  Ray of Revelation
 SB: 3  Chalice of the Void
 SB: 2  Necromancy
[/list]
NOTE: Entomb probably belongs in thre somewhere.

[oldbsturgeon]

well i must say that if i had to choose i would go with the CA as its such a blast to play. talk about it being underdeveloped and underplayed, at the last starcity richmond in may i was the only one playing it. for reference here is the current list i am playing.
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
1 great furnace
1 vault of whispers
1 seat of the synod
1 tolarian academy
1 black lotus
1 mox sapphire
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
4 bazaar of baghdad
4 duress
4 goblin welder
4 squee goblin nabob
3 animate dead
3 intuition
2 thrist for knowledge
2 sundering titan
2 triskelion
1 platinum angel
1 duplicant
1 possessed portal
1 worldgorger dragon
1 eternal witness
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 yawgmoth's will
1 tinker
1 demonic tutor
1 mystical tutor
SB
3 chalice of the void
3 red elemental blast
3 ray of revelation
2 echoing truth
2 tormod's crypt
1 balance
1 darksteel colossus

the changes since richmond have been: -1 necromancy +1 mystical tutor, -1 duplicant -1 possessed portal -2 blue elemental blast +1 balance +1 darksteel colossus +2 echoing truth.
as with any deck the board can change for whatever meta, and since i see more aggro and oath the board fits it better this way here in WV.

[the boogie man]

I think that you have 1 too many mana sources. I think that te blue artifact land could be cut, and the mystical tutor could get removed for a vamp tutor, which fetches anything. balance is maindeck material in my eyes, but I am no expert. I hope that lunar posts, tho, cause he's the man at his deck. thats right, I'm calling you out, bi$n@tc(=). but seriously, his build was the best I've seen.

[Lord of the Goats]

shop aggro has a much better combo matchup because of it's mana denial aspect.

ca rolls to combo.

i think ca is more fun.

[49 Cents]

If people start playing alot of Disenchants and StP's, why play another deck that is even more vulnerable to hate?

[oldbsturgeon]

its funny you should say that lunar's build of the deck is the best because the one he played at eduomonia, i played the EXACT list at richmond. i pretty sure that he has since changed it a bit and i have too. with regard to vampiric, yea its better than mystic,m but you lose lots of life due to cities, but oh well if you can win then might as well use the best cards and forget life totals.
with regards to mana sources, you need lots to be able to play stuff like thrist and intuition. without the extra mana you end up always discarding them to bazaar, because you cant play them.

[FallenOmnipotent]

If people start playing alot of Disenchants and StP's, why play another deck that is even more vulnerable to hate?

I assume you are refering to C.A.?  That is an interesting point.  All i got is 4x Animate deads that needs to resolve and stay in play.  I have no way to recur them either.  So perhaps this is the desiding factor?  If anyone disagrees, please state your arguments.

i think ca is more fun.

I agree...it's crazy fun.   It's like one of those jank decks that win a different way every other time.  And possessed portal is just TE3H!
@oldbsturgeon, don't cut it, it's awsome.  You'll almost always have somehting you WANT to discard or 1-2 squee goblin naboos.  Stick a sundering titan on the board and beat down.  It's AMAZING.  And it's removal of any sort.  They also must immediatl have an answer in their hand, otherwise, they can't do anything.  Becuse it's in your deck, you can control when it hits play, thus it's amazing power.

Question: Should Sphere of Resistance be in Aggro Workshop? 

[Revvik]

Cerebral Assassin is the most fun I have had playing Magic - ever.  I am seriously looking into buying another play set of Bazaars to replace the ones I had, just to play this deck.

Possessed Portal lock is the awesomest bestest thing ever.

4 Duress

Is that the way things are going these days?

[FallenOmnipotent]

I think I've concluded that I will go with Aggro Workshop...even though it's not as fun, I believe to be the correct meta-game call.

Edit:

I'm having 2nd thoughts.

If people start playing alot of Disenchants and StP's, why play another deck that is even more vulnerable to hate?

I assume you are refering to C.A.?  That is an interesting point.  All i got is 4x Animate deads that needs to resolve and stay in play.  I have no way to recur them either.  So perhaps this is the desiding factor?  If anyone disagrees, please state your arguments.

...but, it rus goblin welder too.  Meaning disenchants don't really do anything.  And stps doesn't hurt THAT much.  If they target trike, it's just giving them another turn, trike would kill it's self in responce if the situation was provided.  You wouldn't try to pull off the dragon combo if you know they run stps.

[b-tings]

I have to add my voice to those that say CA is a blast. As a Stax player that hates seeing opponents do things, Possessed Portal gives me a big stiffy.

In fact, if I was going to play this deck for fun, I would probably play three Possessed Portals, and leave the Mystical in, so I could use it to fetch Tinker -> Possessed Portal.

Oh, and Big Tits is like the coolest looking foil ever.

On the other hand, if you want to keep running the show, and everyone is packing disenchant-style effects, running TPS or Gifts with the primary goal of Tendrills kill (so as not to run The Iron Giant into StP) is probably the way to go.

[Methuselahn]

shop aggro has a much better combo matchup because of it's mana denial aspect.

ca rolls to combo.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Perhaps Uba Stax should be mentioned somewhere in this thread as it abuses Bazaar, Welder, and mana denial. 

Shop-Aggro is the funnest by far because it wins more often and winning is the ultimate fun.

Question: Should Sphere of Resistance be in Aggro Workshop

Maybe, but the deck often runs a single 2cc spell-Time Walk.  So, if you like to Chalice for 2, which is a house against Meandeck Gifts, amongst other things, you may want to consider it carefully.  Personally, I'd rather play Stax if im playing Sphere of Resistance.

[FallenOmnipotent]

On the other hand, if you want to keep running the show, and everyone is packing disenchant-style effects, running TPS or Gifts with the primary goal of Tendrills kill (so as not to run The Iron Giant into StP) is probably the way to go.

Acctually, I did biuld this deck. (TPS)  I goldfished with it and thought it was amazing.  Then I tried it in play testing and suked with it...   ...so it's obviously my playing.  I'm going to need more expirance with the deck before I bring it into the tournement.  Until then, I need a different deck, I think I've concluded that Workshop aggro will be the better choice because it has been better developed (besides other reasons).  I made a new thread with a deck list.  Plz help me out.  (thread title: [semi-budget] Aggro Workshop)

[Lunar]

I would have responded sooner if this ever was on top...I looked in the newb forum at another link and noticed this one here...had to stop by of course since CA is amazing...

CA is my favorite deck of all time...I cannot thank the hadley rockstars enough for introducing this build to T1...

While CA hasnt seen much success as of late, something that is 100% to do with the restriction of trinisphere speeding up the format (I understand trinisphere was bad for CA to play against, it allowed a deck like CA to excell in a slightly slower T1 meta) It is still a solid choice depending on your meta...

There are a few things on here that I would like to comment on breifly...

DSC doesnt belong in this deck...! It has absolutly no synergy with anything else the deck does (except tinker)...ie you cannot animate him and you cannot weld him...end of story...if you disagree then I seriously think that you are missing a few points on the deck...you already have sundering titan and posessed portal to tinker into, and if you really need more than that then your in deep doo doo already, and DSC probably isnt doing much good for you anyways...

Death Spark...if you arent running this rather than squee #4 then you better have a seriously good reason for it...it is too good....

I have no clue why more people havnt attempted reanimate in this deck as a 2 of replacing 1 animate dead and 1 either creature or portal...it speeds the deck up an entire turn and makes for things like welder or witness not disenchantable...it only really dampens the dragon kill, which you are only running 1 dragon anyways for...speaking of this card here is probably the reason people dont do it.

with regard to vampiric, yea its better than mystic,m but you lose lots of life due to cities, but oh well if you can win then might as well use the best cards and forget life totals.

Only 1 life matters...the last one, this is kinda common T1 logic (hard to believe if you are used to other formats where each life matters more) If you can get into a deathlong frame of mind you will see that losing a chunk of life if it means you win the game doesnt matter...winning > 7 life or 10 life or 2 life etc etc etc...sturgeon got the second sentance correct in there...

Whats with shivan hellkite in that original list??????? what does he really do in this deck that triskelion doesnt? hes wasted space.....

Seriously I tried to get more involvement in the deck, but the hadley guys seemed to dissapear and I have never had much luck getting others to participate...if you think there is NO innovation though then you apparently missed my brain rapist thread on starcitygames...I tried to innovate, and got almost no help...it takes more than one guy to try and make serious changes...I wish I spoke french and italian and german so I could get the europeans (who play CA somewhat frequently) to chime in more...

The deck is solid...and if you are facing lots of random aggro decks then there is nothing better than turn 1 or 2 sundering titan to win you a game...even workshop aggro cant really match it (for example ill choose CA in that matchup everytime)

I would contribute more (since I really do care about and like CA a lot) if more players seemed interested...as it stands im currently playing ChronStax style stax and havnt picked up CA in over a month...If anybody is more interested they can PM me and ill be glad to give more info...

I would like to say thanks to the guys giving me props on my CA lists though...I appreciate it a lot...For a big thank you ill post you three lists...one that is experimental and amazing innovation (heh) and one that is just solid goodness and...I assume that the list you thought was great was this one...(the link to the eudemonia report that I top 8d with this list is here... http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=274663&start=25 )

Cerebral Assasin By Team Jansport/Hadley Rockstars

4 Bazaar of Bagdhad
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Shivan Reef
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Possesed Portal
1 Necromancy
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Duplicant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Platinum Angel
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Goblin Welder
2 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Animate Dead
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Triskelion
2 Sundering Titan
4 Duress
3 Intuition

SB:

2 Tormods Crypt
1 Duplicant
1 Possesed Portal
3 Echoing Truth
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Blue Elemental Blast

This build was safe and good at the time, and was before I started really heavily teching out the CA builds...The most important change at the time was dropping FoW for Duress and a couple of smaller choices...

Here is the safe list...very solid, props to nataz for being a mad CA pimp like me...It is something that would be a bit more optimal for todays meta..but still could use a little help.

Cerebral Assasin by Nataz on TMD

// Lands
4  Bazaar of Baghdad
4  City of Brass
4  Gemstone Mine
1  Seat of the Synod
1  Tolarian Academy
1  Underground Sea
1  Volcanic Island

// Creatures
1  Eternal Witness
4  Goblin Welder
1  Platinum Angel
4  Squee, Goblin Nabob
1  Sundering Titan
1  Triskelion
1  Worldgorger Dragon

// Spells
1  Ancestral Recall
4  Animate Dead
1  Balance
1  Black Lotus
1  Crop Rotation
1  Demonic Tutor
4  Duress
1  Entomb
3  Ideas Unbound
2  Intuition
1  Mana Crypt
1  Mana Vault
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Possessed Portal
1  Sol Ring
1  Time Walk
1  Tinker
1  Vampiric Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Orim's Chant
SB: 3  Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 3  Pithing Needle
SB: 2  Rack and Ruin
SB: 2  Ray of Revelation
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast

It should be of note that this list was sent to me at the time that saviors spoilers had first come out and he was testing ideas unbound as an instant I believe...thirst for knowledge is I believe what he had switched out for the time being...The only thing I really dont like about his build is that he only runs 1 sundering titan...I really think you need 2 (for intuition purposes and to increase the odds of getting one earlier)

Here is the wicked teched out Brain Rapist Build by yours truly...Scott Lemenager aka Lunar on TMD and SCG

4xBazaar of Baghdad
3xSquee, Goblin Nabob
1xDeath Spark
4xGoblin Welder
3xAnimate Dead
2xReanimate
3xIntuition
1xEntomb
1xLiving Wish
2xSundering Titan
2xTriskelion
1xDuplicant
1xPlatinum Angel
1xWorldgorger Dragon
1xEternal Witness
1xPosessed Portal
4xDuress
1xDemonic Tutor
1xTinker
1xYawgmoths Will
1xAncestral Recall
9xSolomoxcrypault
4xCity of Brass
4xGemstone Mine
1xShivan Reef
1xGreat Furnace
1xVault of Whispers
1xSeat of the Synod

SB:

3xRay of Revelation
3xArcane Laboratory
2xTormods Crypt
1xWithered Wretch
1xRazormane Masticore
1xDuplicant
3xRed Elemental Blast
1xPosessed Portal

In later versions of this brain rapist deck I upped it to two living wishs, and had a creature sb of withered wretch, meddling mage, true believer, maze of ith, kami of ancient law, gorilla shaman, viashino heretic, duplicant, another dragon...etc etc etc etc etc...depending on meta considerations of course...other trial lands that ive main decked are cephalid colloseum and riftstone portal (which has been okay, but its nice tapping bazaar for mana)

the link to the old brain rapist report is here... 

http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=277486

dont post there though cause its months old now...

I just wanted to bring up my early brain rapist build in an attempt to show that innovation isnt completely dead on CA...in fact the ralph parsinite build in there is pretty cool too...

the deck is good, probably not really any better overall, but really not any worse...it owns the 3cc matchup though which was the only thing I was consistantly losing to early in my CA days...there are some cards that are missing, and some that arent...it was all about making compromises though with this one, crop rotation and balance got cut due to some meta considerations and living wishes came in to clean up StP and Phyrexian Furnace messes since EVERY deck in my area at the time was running them MD in multiples (which is bad for CA in case you didnt know.)  This deck also was eating oath alive at the time (oath was very very big in my area for a while and this was a must have attribute for the deck at the time)

morphling.de is also a good source of newer CA lists since some people still play it over there and top 8 sometimes with it...take a look...at least they figured out that entomb is amazing in the deck over there whereas it seems very few have a clue about it over here (besides myself and nataz who also runs it)

CA is good...needs a little updating of course (perhaps after the Eudemonia series is ended I will pick it back up for the smaller tourneys and give it some more thought)

Any specific questions about CA let me know...(I can answer questions on stax and shop aggro too if you need...)



EDIT: As an additional bonus to those who say there hasnt been enough work done on CA to this date, ill do some leg work for you and post the ORIGINAL cerebral assasin list from Eastman here on TMD...

Cerebral Assassin:

28 Consistently Broken
4 Goblin Welder
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Animate Dead
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Force of Will
3 Triple H (sundering titan)
1 Triskelion

9 Restrictedly Broken
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Intuition (this slots tough, I might want a fastbond or...? )
1 Possessed Portal

23 Mana
8 SoloCrypten
1 Mana Vault
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Shivan Reef
3 Underground River
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass



SB:
Teh Dragon
4 Dragon
2 Ambassador
3 Necromancy
Other stuff (still just guessing)
1 Beb
1 Reb
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Echoing Truth


Still think we havnt come a ways on this deck???

[the boogie man]

@lunar: don't you think that eternal witness is better that the laquatus' in the side? when would you ever board laquatus in?

[oldbsturgeon]

well yeah of course its better, but you see the last list is for historical reference only, showing how far the deck has come since its start, and i must agree it has come a long ways. hopefully it will continue to develop even more. i know i would be interested in discussing the deck with you lunar.

[the boogie man]

but what im saying is that there is a witness in the main and 2 laquatus in the side.

[FallenOmnipotent]

It's not his deck, it's someone elses biuld. 

[the boogie man]

sorry, now I get it. but lunars build definately looks the best. dath spark is super tech.

[oldbsturgeon]

i agree, its such a crappy card that there is no way i would have ever thought of it. its really nice in this deck. its so cool to find some obscure card from long ago and find the deck for it. this is spark's deck to shine in.
oh yeah, i have put two reanimates in the deck and i must say they are so cool in here. they also allow me to use the animate deads strictly on larger stuff and dragon and use those on welders, or occasional 1st turn fat.

[Lunar]

Hey guys...just cause of you I ran Cerebral Assasin Today at the Eudemonia Black Lotus Tourney....


I ended up taking 5th out of 43 players...6-2 on the day with only 5 game losses...

The deck is too good right now...

Final standings and my deck list will be posted @ www.eudemonia.net/p9

Feel free to comment at all on my list...

Reanimate is too good not to run....My list will be titled under "Brain Rapist"

Ill post a full list here in a week or so when I get back from Maui so when it leaves the eudemonia site there will be a list here forever

Just a quick rundown of my day

Rd 1 Bye from previous Top 8
Rd 2 Dragon 2-1-1
2-0
Rd 3 ChronStax 2-0
3-0
Rd 4 Gifts (with scrolls) 2-0
4-0
Rd 5 Akroma Oath with MD bounce 1-2
4-1
Rd 6 3cc 2-0
5-1
Rd 7 Gifts (with scrolls) 2-0
6-1

I enter top 8 in first

I ended up losing 0-2 to gifts to probably the best player in CA (he is also a pro tour player who finished 14th at pro tour london...not bad)

so my final tally was

6-2 with only 5 game losses....

My build was good...in fact the only odd card that wasnt a factor for me today was intuition (which I only ran as a two of)

Talk to you guys later...
Rd 2

[FallenOmnipotent]

...waits intently...

[Lunar]

Okay, so im back from Hawaii...had a great trip...

Here is the list I ran at the Eudemonia tourney last weekend...

There were 43 players I believe with 7 rounds of swiss and a cut to top 8...I ended up placing 5th..

Brain Rapist by Scott Lemenager aka Lunar on TMD and SCG...

Maindeck:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Goblin Welder
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Death Spark
1 Eternal Witness
1 Entomb
1 Platinum Angel
4 Duress
2 Reanimate
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Triskelion
1 Tinker
1 Possessed Portal
2 Sundering Titan
1 Worldgorger Dragon
2 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Animate Dead
1 Sulfurious Springs
1 Underground River
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Shivan Reef

Sideboard:
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Possessed Portal
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyls Recall
2 Pyrostatic Pillar

The deck ran pretty wonderful for me all day until my top 8 matchup against Luis Scott-Vargas who was playing his own version of merchant scroll gifts...

On the day there were a few changes I might have tried to help the deck on its way...

First off I must say I fully think that 21 mana sources (bazaar doesnt count since im not running riftstone portal this time...portal has been too random and at times bad for me so I dropped it this time) is the correct amount...many builds are only running 20 (from what ive seen anyways) and ive found 21 to be much better at stabilizing the deck...

Intuition needs to be a 3 or or a 1 of probably...2 was just random enough to not really be of any use and in most cases I would pitch intuition to bazaar and keep a thirst for knowledge in my hand...card advantage was key for me this time through, whereas in past runs ive wanted a more powerful play...in the current meta I wanted stability and advantage over sheer power (which ive run before by upping my tutors and intuition to 3 and dropping thirst for it being too slow and costly in my past builds...its explained in more detail in the brain rapist thread I made on scg.com)...  1 intuition might still be a good option however if you want to run it for mid game situations where you have animate or a welder in play...you can regular tutor for the intuition if you dont have a bazaar and then proceed to win...1 might be the best option for now...but ill have to tinker with some lists to make sure its the way to go for sure...(basically im back to the point that eastman and the other hadley guys were at when they first built the deck...they couldnt find room for intuition originally...)

My SB was HOT for me though all day long...REB and Tormods Crypt were easily my best two cards after SB...so much so that if I knew my meta were going to stay the same for sure next time id run 1 MD crypt in the place of intuition...im not even joking...im thinking along the same lines as rich shay running them MD in CS...it was THAT good...at the least I wish I had 1 more in that SB...Id also drop the hurkyls recall for another echoing truth...Ray of Revelation as always was just phenominal...it flat out won my match against dragon and my 1 game against oath for me....that oath match was unfortunate, he had pretty amazing hands to beat my kinda normal hands (too good to throw back, but not good enough to beat god hands sort of things...)

Ill probably have a full tourney report up on starcitygames.com in the tourney reports section in the next day so take a look there for more info on how my day went...ill post a link to slapjacks report when I get it done...

[oldbsturgeon]

the list is only 59 cards, im guessing it is missing the jet? congrats on the good finish, always nice to see the deck performing well. so what happened with the living wish thing. did you give up on it. i really never was fond of it, but you said it was good, so while i never tried it, i believed it to be an option. also do you miss time walk any. i find it to be nice in the deck, but i could certainly see it being replaced with other things as well.

[Lunar]

yeh the jet is missing, didnt notice it...I cut and pasted from eudemonias site, so they must have cut it off...

Back many many many months ago I cut time walk for proxie considerations (I have some power now so this wouldnt be a factor anymore)...this was my original reasoning and ive actually just never looked back...Time walk could find a space, possibly for 1 intuition...

The living wish thing was an answer for the abnormally high number of swords to plowshares in my meta at the time...once I realized that not only could it answer swords but it could also answer the phyrexian furnaces that had been popping up MD in a number of decks at the time it became a must have 1 of for me...It won me several tourney matches and in the correct circumstances it is appropriate...I liked it enough to start experimenting with extras and with help from Doug Linn (HiVal) I began to work in an extra wish and started utilizing a wish target side board...choices were really cool at times, but overall not really any more or less effective than traditional choices...As the tourney I was playing in was for a Black Lotus I decided I better go with what for sure works, and leave a little bit of my tinkering at home for the day...

That being said I still wanted to run some of my other options in the forms of death spark (which won me a game in the tourney) entomb (which has caught on all over the world...ie Europe) and Reanimate (which hasnt caught on anywhere else yet)

Each of these ideas have come from various sources over the past year some completely ignored by the community (ie reanimate and even entomb up until recently) and death spark was embraced almost immediatly by Cerebral Assasin fans, however I feel that many people completely ignored how well it works, and people were running 4 squees still and death spark, or only death spark in the SB...which feels odd to me and is a waste of space...you never need more than 3 squee and death spark can replace the 4th one as a psuedo squee/lava dart...

The idea for death spark as squee #4 came to me when HiVal had mentioned meandecks idea or only running 3 squee MD...I didnt want to completely move over to only 3 bazaar engine pieces and death spark which had all of a sudden popped up felt like the perfect fit...I see no reason (especially in light of the number of welderstax and control slaver decks in the meta) to not run this MD...

The reanimate idea was also something that was originally introduced by some members of meandeck in the original cerebral assasin thread by Eastman.  The idea was largely ignored however and the idea ended up getting dropped from existance....it was not until I started tinkering with the mana base and was getting frustrated by some losses where I had a good hand but was one or two mana short...I had already decided to drop force of will in favor of duress. (an idea largely brought on by the restriction of trinisphere...force was in the deck primarily to stop first turn workshop/trinisphere, and to help a bit against fast combo and TPS at the time...) The switch from force also meant another thing...a drop in the reliance of blue cards and a blue heavier mana base...I had previously been running 3 animate deads and 1 necromancy as a figh around chalice on 2 against stax and to be able to do even better against control decks by winning with dragon on their turn in response to a spell (necromancy in response to gifts is hot) Once I began speaking with Doug the idea of reanimate in the deck resurfaced (when I bugged him about meandecks hidden build  ) and I dropped the necromancy (in favor of a cheaper mana curve) and as previously mentioned I am not running time walk...a second reanimate appeared in this second spot (I wanted 2 so as not to be quite as random...a second one also fit well with the slight increase in animate targets my newer builds were running, which was in response to removal from 3cc and fish which were both popular in my area at the time) Entomb also fit well here which was an idea we had since I was so feeling intuition and this fit as an easier turn 1 intuition that could lead to a devistating turn 2...even without much mana...at this point the deck was starting to sing...

In further response to the time walk question, other pieces in that spot have gone to cards like the living wish, and crucible of worlds...both of which have had great runs for me in the past and are always options...if you still want to fit them you can lower your threat count by 1 or so and still be fully capable of amazing games...I just have found a good balance for myself in the threat category...

right now I run 9 ways to bring my guys back from the yard.

4 Goblin Welder
3 Animate Dead
2 Reanimate

I am running 11 targets for these spells, 4 of which are doubling as the animators themselfs (welder) Portal also acts as a sort of 12th one but can only be brought out with welder (and tinker, but thats not an animator) but thats balanced by dragon (and witness) only being brought out with reanimate or animate.

2 Sundering Titan
2 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel
1 worldgorger dragon
1 eternal witness
4 Goblin Welder
1 Possesed Portal

If we take the welders out of the target pile then we have a 9/8 balance...not too shabby, ive found it to work well for me...in the past ive seen people go as low as something like 3 titans and or 2 portals, they then filled in the deck with things like crop rotation or other tutors, that I find dont really contribute to what the decks primary goal is....turn 2 angry creatures from the dead...! Crop rotation is a decent fix for gettingg bazaar or some protection from wasteland, but with a cheaper mana curve this is less important in my version. Vampiric and Mystical Tutor as well are headaches for me as they generally are taking a turn and some card advantage from me, both of which are very bad (IMO) for the deck.

The only other things that comes to mind is the fact that I ended up dropping duplicant this time (which was another one of my ideas originally) It is something that I have mixed feelings on right now...while he deals with darksteel collosus (which is what I lost to in the top 8) he can sometimes be a hassle and almost dead, he also makes a bad matchup against stuff like other comob even worse (unless you get him in yard with active welder against say dragon...)  I do wish that I would have had some way to get 1 back into the deck, but I just couldnt find a spot at the time I was rebuilding the deck...maybe platinum angel...but every time I think about cutting the angel she wins me a game or two and I know I gotta keep her around....any ideas from you guys? I cant do it all on my own.

What can we do with the list I just ran to make it even better....but remember in my mind reanimate MUST stay, same with entomb and death spark...everything else is pretty up in the air...so work away.

[oldbsturgeon]

i played this at the last scg richmond and i must say that duplicant was my least favorite card in the deck. whenever would draw it and discard it i never welded it into play, and while i did animate it against oath, he killed the guy i copied first so the guy was just a stupid 1/4. i also never saw the angel but i would not want to cut it either.
something i want to know is the change in the artifact lands to pain lands. is this to give you better access to black? it seems like a lot of pain with cities and reanimates, but once again only the last life matters. i noticed you brought back the pillars. if i recall you claimed after the first eudomonia you played them in they did not do so great, so why are they back?

[Lunar]

I would probably fit duplicant back in as a 1 of in the SB if possible and maybe in the MD. My only problems with the deck have come from a too quick tinker/dsc or the akroma/spirit combo...duplicant/welder is an amazing answer for both of these problems...once again this desicsion comes down to meta circumstances...That being said what decks did you play agianst at richmond? I dont remember exactly what that meta entailed, but if oath wasnt big time then dup probably wasnt as good...duplicant was hudge for me in a california meta filled with Oath at that time (it slowly got hated out and is just now starting to make a showing again) Basically duplicant turns a 45/55 matchup against oath into a 51/49 matchup in favor of CA (especially with a second out of the board...)

Meta considerations is ever the problem with taking somebody elses list...you MUST always tweak things at least a little bit to fit into your meta...choices decided (and im not sure how much I went into things like the duplicant choice in public) by myself cannot ALWAYS work everywhere else...I do appreciate you guys liking my previous lists though...it keeps me motivated to hear things like that...

I switched this time back to pain lands once again for stability...one major reason was that I was re-upping the blue count by 2 3cc cards and I wanted to be sure to have this...since I was already including 2 pain lands (ie river and reef) I decided to cut down to 1 vault of whispers to broaden my mana options even more...the 1 vault still worked well when I saw it, and i have never been dissapointed in the artifact lands...I just wanted a slightly more colorful base since I was kind of mixing several versions off CA into one this time...The only time I didnt like the pain lands was when I had springs out and had 2 blue cards in hand any my bazaar wasnt drawing me into any more mana sources...it was a pain (get it... ) Rememeber the pain lands can always be used for colorless at not life cost when you have another colored source...

The pillars were really just a half hearted attempt to throw something in against fast combo...Ive never been big on chalice since in THIS build chalice is terrible, I never want to set it to 0 since my own mana base needs top decked moxen at times, and 1 hampers a number of my own options as well...arcane lab has prooven fatal for myself so it couldnt make it either...pillar came back since even though it has hurt me in the past, it hurts combo even more and can be truly effective if I can get a turn 1 welder out then drop pillar turn 2 (assuming combo hasnt beaten me by then, but most of the time turn 3-4 is what we have to worry about...pillar also survives artifact hate brought in against my big creatures/portal...its a good choice amongst a list of bad choices...any other ideas here please let me know.

[nataz]

any other ideas here please let me know.

orims chant!

[Lunar]

oh yeh, I remember that from your list...I wasnt thrilled with it since it felt just like stifle...

I do suppose it could work well on your own turn as a 1 shot xantid swarm as well...not too bad...

of course I dont have any right now, so id have to go find some...

Do you bring it in against gifts as well nataz? It would seem less good in a match where they have drains and forces to stop that tendrils kill...pillar here is more stable since it can drop early and shut it off since rebuild doesnt do anything against it...they have to get echoing truth, or something with burning wish to stop it..

Beyond that nataz how is your list coming along? I havnt seen an update since before saviors.

[nataz]

oh yeah, I remember that from your list...I wasn't thrilled with it since it felt just like stifle...

the problem with stifle was that you had to wait until they casted the tendrils for it to be any good. If they could cast the tendrils, they have already drawn a billion cards/played out a ton of mana/ and won.

With chant you don't wait for the tendrils, but instead use it preemptively in response to the draw 7, or will, or rebuild, or whatever bomb they invested all their resources into.

this combined with the four duress, could often times stall out the tendrils.dec long enough to squeeze a portal down, or blow up some lands and put them on a clock with titan.

Chant isn't a perfect answer (in fact, I'm pretty sure its not even a "good" answer) but I like it better then chalice because of CA's dependence on moxen, and better then  pillar b/c between the cities and cheap spells, I ended up locking myself out of the game way to easily. There is nothing more frustrating then dealing 8 dmg to your self from your own spells, another 6 dmg from your lands, and then having the tendrils player go rit, mox, tendrils for the win. 

over all, I still like CA.

Oath, Gifts, and CS are all decent to good matches. You have cheap bombs, welder helps beat though the counter wall, and your draw engine is free and un-counterable. One of the reasons why I still run intuition is for the ability to nab 2 squee and a recurable threat (titan, death spark, portal, etc) and just absolutely pound them in the long game.   

Stax is all about the die roll, b/c chalice can rape you in so many many ways, but if you manage to win the welder war things become much more manageable. Honestly its a luck thing.

Fishy ranges from annoying -> mind as well scoop and move to game 2, depending on the build. UW chalice fish is like the new combo match-up, sad face, where as the non-chalice or green based fish are much easier to play against.The problem is that we have such a shitty mana base, and lean hard on the artifact mana. Null rod is annoying, but chalice for zero is just plain mean. Combined with waste to kill our draw engine, and a number of ways to deal with welder and Big FAT, its defiantly your worse match-up.

For me, I have taken to running 3-4 pithing needle to shore up the match-up. Depending on the build needle can shut down bouncer, jitte, waste, manlands, mong, theifs, etc. There is always a good target. I used to side in oxidize also to help beat the needles from the fish SB, but recently I haven't really been seeing them anywhere near the numbers I expected. Meh, whatever, if fish doesn't run needles more fun for me. Post board fish still won't be pretty, but I think even a good fish player would be hard pressed to go better then 50/50 with me. 

Overall, one of the things I like the most about the deck is the ability to win the match.

A deck like this has multiple levels of attack (welder, animate, dragon kill, and fat beats), an amazingly powerful and synergistic draw engine, and a 5 color mana base that lets you use TFK, Intuition, Yawgs Will, Tinker, Welder, every piece of decent artifact mana, recall, TW, Balance, Crop Rotation, Tolarian Academy, and even FOW if you choose (although I choose Duress most of the time over FOW). Sometimes you really do just WIN, no matter how "bad" the match-up is on paper. This deck has mad "T1" effect.

Furthermore, the options in the SB war are crazy good. Even with the worst match-ups of UW chalice fish and Combo, you still have outs, and against everything else life is good.

Go ahead and lose a game to a bad match-up or your opponents brokebrokenness you'll feel a lot better when you go broke on g2, and win though proper SB tecnitechnique for the match.

oh yea, and this deck is a blast to play.
<3 CA

P.S.
oops, forgot your question on the gifts match-up.

To answer, I dont don't treat it like a combo deck, I treat it like a control deck that can abuse will and the GY like mad crazy, and then SB appropriately with Rebs, and crypts. Chant stays in the board. With MD uncounterable draw with Bazaar, Welder, Duress, fast Titans, and Platz, and SB rebs and Crypts, I find the match-up to be pretty good.

[Lunar]

me too, I was just curious as to your thoughts on chant against it...

since it is control you can always use chant on your own turn as a xantid swarm to make sure something like intuition hits, or so your dragon loop cannot be stopped...

just a thought and one I will test a little more...

It could be half decent against any number of control decks then for similar reasons I suppose (although REB is still a better answer, but bringing in 3 REB and 1 or 2 chants isnt too bad)

Nice post though nataz.