TMD OPEN 7: 10/15/05->10/16/05, Waterbury,CT

[iamfishman]

DAY 1

Saturday, October 15, 2005
Courtyard by Marriott
63 Grand St.
Waterbury, Ct. 06702
(203) 596-1000

MAIN EVENT - THE MANA DRAIN OPEN 7 (Waterbury)
$20 Entry Fee
Registration: 10:00 - 11:00 am
Tourney Starts at 11:00 am
Format - Type One with TEN proxies+$1 per extra proxy(15 proxies maximum)
Cut to top 16.
DOPENESS FACTOR: Lim x->(The next value in this sequence: 1, 4, 9, 6, 5, 6, 9, 4, 1...)+ of 1/x
1st Prize - UNLIMITED BLACK LOTUS or $625, PLUS free admission and 1 ROUND  BYE into the next MANA DRAIN OPEN, PLUS entry into the bi-yearly Tournament of Champions,
2nd Prize - BETA TIME WALK or $425
3rd Prize - UNLIMITED MOX JET or $325
4th Prize - UNLIMITED MOX EMERALD or $300
5th Prize - UNLIMITED MOX PEARL or $275
6th Prize- UNLIMITED TIMETWISTER or $175
7th Prize - LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA or $150
8th Prize - LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA or $150
9th - 16th Place Prizes - OFFICIAL "TMD OPEN" PLAYMAT*
17th Place- 3D Magic Life Counter
17th-32nd Prize - 3 Foreign Booster Packs
33rd Prize - Playset of Goblin Games
2 highest age 15 and under non-top 8 prize - Foil DCI Voidmage Prodigy
3 Last Place Prizes - A playset of Kamigawa Block and a Core Set booster
Farthest travelled participant: FREE ADMISSION TO MAIN EVENT
Oddest Deck/Card Choice: DCI Textless Fireball
First to beat previous champion(Jason Zheng): DCI Foil Pyschatog
Play of the day contest: Stroke of Genius
MAGIC TEAM SCATTEGORIES(During top 16): Every team wins a prize.  Winning team wins an Italian Legends Booster pack and 6 other boosters. Other prizes to be determined.
50 Mystery Rare Raffle: 50 MYSTERY RARES
8 Other Daily Random Raffles: A SET OF MOX COOKIES(5)
Prize to the highest non-top sixteen finishing female: BB Foreign Serra Angel
Prize to the highest non-top sixteen finishing player with no proxies: Chrome Mox

At 10:00 Type 4 Champs- Win Crazy Carls Stack.
Admission is $1 or any card that Crazy Carl needs for his new stack. (see http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=24105.0)
Last man standing wins a complete type 4 stack.


DAY 2

Sunday, October 16, 2005
Courtyard by Marriott
63 Grand St.
Waterbury, Ct. 06702
(203) 596-1000

Type 1 Tourney for a Mox Ruby PLUS free admission and 1 ROUND  BYE into the next MANA DRAIN OPEN
10+ proxies(same as day 1)
PRIZE INCREASES AS ATTENDANCE DOES
Registration 10-11:00 AM
Starts 11:00 AM
$15 Entry Fee
20 person minimum

Highlander Tournament for an Italian Legends Mana Drain
PRIZE INCREASES AS ATTENDANCE DOES
Registration 1:00-2:00 PM
Tournament starts after round 3 of Mox tournament
$10 Entry Fee
10 Person Minimum

September 94 Tournament for a TBD Prize from that same era
PRIZE INCREASES AS ATTENDANCE DOES
Registration 3:00-4:00 PM
$10 Entry Fee
September 94 Tournament
The rules are simple: Build a deck with only cards from Dark, Legends, Revised, ABU, Antiquities, or Arabian Nights. 
Up to 25 proxies may be used. 
You can use more current versions of the cards, as long as they were from those sets.
Although, we will still be using current rules(the stack, comabt damage, etc.) since to revert to pre 5the edition rules would be too confusing, we will use the B&R list from Sept. 1994.

Restricted:
Ali From Cairo, Ancestral Recall, Berserk, Black Lotus, Braingeyser, Candleabra of Tawmos, Channel, Chaos Orb!!!, Copy Artifact, Demonic Tutor, Falling Star!!!, Feldon's Cane, Ivory Tower, Library of Alexandria, Mind Twist, Mirror Universe, Mishra's Workshop, Mox Emerald, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Ruby, Mox Sapphire, Recall, Regrowth, Sol Ring, Sword of the Ages(SOOOOOOOOOO POWERFUL), Time Walk, Timetwister, Underworld Dreams, Wheel of Fortune

Banned
Divine Intervention, Sharharazard, Time Vault

Of interests that they are not restricted in this time frame:
Balance, Black Vise, Fastbond, Fork, Mana Vault, Strip Mine

The prize will be based on the number of entrants, but will likely be something cool from one of those sets(LOA, Bazaar, Workshop, Drain, Chains, Etc) provided we get enough people.

Texas Hold'em Tournament(probabbly for a piece of power which will be based on attendance)
PRIZE INCREASES AS ATTENDANCE DOES
Registration 4-5:00 pm
Tournament starts after round 6 of Mox tournament
$10 entry fee

TEAM Magic Trivia(teams may be up to 4 people)
(Using Jeopardy template- 5 categories with questions of varying value.)
Starts at 6:30 pm
Prizes include: Foreign Booster Packs
FREE Entry

Other events (not time specific)
Type 4(and plenty of it)
Halo 2
Other ideas that come up before or on that day

Questions comments concerns, please feel free to contact me at iamfishman2000@hotmail.com, via AIM at PLIKEY, PM ME, or by phone (860) 618-3412.

Cya at Waterbury!

[Komatteru]

I think Portal should be legal both days.  Here's why:

It was announced that Portal would be Vintage legal back in FEBRUARY.  This is not an announcement the DCI sprung on us in September.  There will have been 8 months to test and obtain the cards for Portal-legal Vintage.  That's a hell of a long time.  Players get FAR less of a chance to obtain the needed cards from a new set, and no one ever says anything about that.  I have been to tournaments that have taken place inbetween the release and legalization of a set, and there's never been any problems.  Granted, this is a bit bigger than those were, but let's face it.  Portal being legal is not exactly new news.  It's really hard to feel bad for someone who on October 15th realizes that Portal is going to be legal in 5 days and just starts to think about getting the cards for it, or what cards from Portal are going to make a difference in the format.

If you do the byes as prizes for small, local tournaments, it's going to take a lot of effort not to know that Portal is going to be legal.  Bye tournaments will generate a lot of publicity, and anyone who somehow manages to know when Waterbury is happening but doesn't know that Portal is going to be legal is a fucking moron.

As I point out in the announcement forum, it's not like the DCI has never given less notification for tournaments that matter one hell of a lot more.  Skullclamp's ban took effect 2 days before Nationals last year, and there was only 20 days between the announcement and Nationals.  So, don't complain about "a new format."  Other players in other formats have had to deal with a lot less notification, and there was NOTHING they could do about it.

As for players not knowing that Portal would be legal: Waterbury is a word of mouth tournament.  There's no official website for it, no promotion from SCG, no promotion from Wizards.  Anyone who knows about it knows about it because they either read it here, or heard it from someone who read it here.  Portal being legal is a pretty big deal, and I doubt anyone would forget that when telling a friend about the tournament.  For some people, that even might be more of an incentive to come.

I know I will put more effort into coming if Portal is legal, since that weekend is good for me, but still in the middle of a school year.  But it's going to be a logistical nightmare for me to get there (since I'd be combining it with a visit of Brown's grad school, more than likely), and nothing but hassle to arrange for rides from people I don't know well, etc.  I can't do day 2 no matter what, since I need to find a way back to Providence (if I do visit Brown), catch a flight out (so there's another 2-4 hours of the day), and then drive an hour from the Indianapolis airport to Terre Haute.  Oh, and then I need to finish any assignments I have for that next Monday.  If Portal is legal, it'd be worth the effort, but otherwise, it's just another big tournament that's 1200 miles away from me, and that's just not enough of an incentive for me to try to arrange it all if there's no special reason to come.

[xthexpunisherx]

Portal isn't a reason to be at Waterbury.  Waterbury is the reason to be at Waterbury.  I understand that its a long trip for you however when people talk about how great waterbury is they mean it.  I was able to go to one and it was amazing its the closest thing I've seen to being at a hardcore show (at least the community aspect of it).  It truly is a special time and whether we play vintage magic or Frisbee Golf it would still rule.

[Ivantheterrible]

It truly is a special time and whether we play vintage magic or Frisbee Golf it would still rule.

hey that better not be a nock at frisbee golf


I think that it would be a great idea to have portal first showcased at a meaniful tourny and not some small 30 person one. Frankly i am suprised to see some of this sites larger names hate the idea so much. I have known ben for quite a while and he has enjoyed playing combo befor. He also used to test against nothing but combo so i figure if he is playing control he should know how to deal with combo, but then again every so once in a while bens a whiny bitch so maybe its just that time of the month agian.

 Also semen man needs to get a grip of himself agian as he actually felt it was alright to say that portal shouldn't be played until he plays in a tourny agian. Well steve whats the problem with coming to waterbury afraid youll loose to a dealer agian. No problem for you you can always just stall out and wait for time. Or are you going to break the format in half and you have to be the first to do it. If you did think that you had the ultimate deck for the format with potal in it you still wouldn't win you know why cause except random orgins tournies where you play half your matches agianst sui black and red decks youv'e rarly performed. You build your ego up so much and everyone consideres you to be such a great player and you are a pretty good one but you never learned how to do one thing well. Play well with the burden of the time limit. You admitted it yourself after loosing to 7/10 in the top 4 of an scg as soon as you were asked to play at a resonable speed you made a game costing mistake. If mike had ask you to play faster at waterbury you would have had a round one loss.

So why dont you come to waterbury steve and you can play in the first tourny where portal is legal cause your one guy out of many so you should play in the first portal tourny not portal be legal in the first tourny you play in.

Not necessary -jp[/color]

So ray my vote for portal is fuck yeah. 

[xthexpunisherx]

It truly is a special time and whether we play vintage magic or Frisbee Golf it would still rule.

hey that better not be a nock at frisbee golf

and if it is

[nataz]

I say go for the idea of extra cash for extra proxies. I don't really care what level you set it at, but to be fair I think the # of people you alienate by doing this is < the amount of money you can make form this.

also, I just wanted to mention that this quote

Portal before it is legal is a horrible, horrible idea.  Do you really want to piss off the people who didn't read this thread and miss the announcement?  NO.  That could ruin future Waterbury's if anything could.

*

made me laugh so hard I shot JW BL out of my nose.

Everyone knows waterbury is awesome, and if more proxies/portal legal 5 days earlier scares them away I think they are missing what waterbury is really all about.

On the idea of portal:

here are the main arguments people are making against it.

 Q: Aren't people are worried about players flying in, and then not realizing that portal is legal, which then presumable could ruin their expensive waterbury experience? Wont the DCI eat our first born children if we don't follow their un-restriction time table?

A: Well, how did "they" hear about this waterbury in the first place? As large as Waterbury can be, almost everyone gets their information from the same place...

Ray, and TMD.

Ray has already mentioned in his initial post that there are more details coming, and to make sure to keep up with announcements. Realistically, who is going to go to TMD(which is the only place Ray has announced this to my knowledge), read the Waterbury TO report to like the 5th page, STOP at Rays announcement that Waterbury is back on Oct. 15, and NOT hear/read anything else about it(including the rest of that same thread) till they show up that morning ?

and as far as the whole not following DCI policy; one word, proxy.

Q: Won't portal allow combo to eat our souls? Don't you want to save this Waterbury as the last fun game of magic I will ever play?

A: Its sooooo close to the 20th anyways. If you aren't ready for portal on the 15th of October, what makes you think you will be ready 5 days later?

On the one-hand portal comes in and destroys the format (oh-nooooooos, combo), and we get something akin to the PTNO tinker days. (which I think is doubtful, do people really believe this?)

Or OTOH, portal comes in and does nothing...

either way, we at least get to see how portal will effect the meta-game in one of the more important and larger (if not the largest) event of the season.

Without waterbury, the community is losing a fairly useful indicator of what our format could be like after this potentially ground-breaking change. If there is some kind of problem, and combo becomes "absofuckingretarded"**, I want to know as soon as possible, so that we can have that much more time to prepare for SCG.

Its five days people, if you aren't ready with your super-secret tech/anti-tech then, it wont matter 5 days later when it is legal.

Unless of course...

Q: I know it will probably be fun and simple to make portal legal, but I want to hoard my super-secret-team-portal-awesome-tech until SCG, why do you want to ruin my fun and profit?

A: because even though during they day I save lives, at night I go out and steal candy from babies.


*Methuselahn
**Kowal

[Komatteru]

Portal isn't a reason to be at Waterbury.  Waterbury is the reason to be at Waterbury.

I want to make it out there, cause I know Waterbury is special, but realize the cost of a plane ticket, the hassle of getting from wherever I fly into to Waterbury (what the hell would I do if my ride suddenly had something come up, and wouldn't be able to make it?), the responsbilities of real life I put behind for making the trip, etc.  If it were in, say, New York City, half the problems are gone, since I could cab my way around or w/e.  It costs just way too much money to rent a car at 21.  Totally not worth it.  All that adds up and makes it a very expensive and stressful trip to plan.  Portal becomes legal 5 days later, so the format I just played is gone.  I don't see a reason to hassle my way up there to play non-Portal Vintage for the last time.  I'm not really attached to non-Portal Vintage enough for that.  I mean, I have to balance the benefits with the problems, and up until this point, the logisitical problems have largely outweighed the benefits of making it to Waterbury, and with Portal not yet legal, nothing's much different this time than any other.  It's a better weekend for me, but I still have class on Monday.

Aside from Kowal, Brassman, and Jeff Anand, I haven't heard of too many NEners making the trip to Chicago or Columbus.  I sure wouldn't if I were from the NE.  It's nothing but a long drive and huge pain, for one tournament.  I don't see why you guys can't just recognize what a huge hassle it is to get up to Waterbury.  Like I said, it doesn't help us out that it's nowhere near a large airport.

Resume ontopic.

[jcb193]

I don't see why TO's assume that you have to hjave 10 monster prizes for Top 10.  I've played in many tournaments that only gave out a decent prize for first, and it was still fun.  Not to mention, you offer a lot more entertainment aside from the tournament.  You aren't a card store, so you don't claim nearly the amount of benefits that they do (selling cards on the side, advertisement).  Therefore, i don't think it is unreasonable for your prize structure to be less amazing than there's.

Why don't you fix the Top 4 prizes and than adjust the next ~20 based on attendance....?

JB

[Smmenen]

It truly is a special time and whether we play vintage magic or Frisbee Golf it would still rule.

hey that better not be a nock at frisbee golf


I think that it would be a great idea to have portal first showcased at a meaniful tourny and not some small 30 person one. Frankly i am suprised to see some of this sites larger names hate the idea so much. I have known ben for quite a while and he has enjoyed playing combo befor. He also used to test against nothing but combo so i figure if he is playing control he should know how to deal with combo, but then again every so once in a while bens a whiny bitch so maybe its just that time of the month agian.

 Also semen man needs to get a grip of himself agian as he actually felt it was alright to say that portal shouldn't be played until he plays in a tourny agian. Well steve whats the problem with coming to waterbury afraid youll loose to a dealer agian. No problem for you you can always just stall out and wait for time. Or are you going to break the format in half and you have to be the first to do it. If you did think that you had the ultimate deck for the format with potal in it you still wouldn't win you know why cause except random orgins tournies where you play half your matches agianst sui black and red decks youv'e rarly performed. You build your ego up so much and everyone consideres you to be such a great player and you are a pretty good one but you never learned how to do one thing well. Play well with the burden of the time limit. You admitted it yourself after loosing to 7/10 in the top 4 of an scg as soon as you were asked to play at a resonable speed you made a game costing mistake. If mike had ask you to play faster at waterbury you would have had a round one loss.

So why dont you come to waterbury steve and you can play in the first tourny where portal is legal cause your one guy out of many so you should play in the first portal tourny not portal be legal in the first tourny you play in.

Not necessary -jp[/color]

So ray my vote for portal is fuck yeah. 

I was being partly facetious when I said that but, w/e. 

I LOVE it when people say that I'm playing slow when I am playing a deck that is usually like 10* harder than my opponents. 

Think about this:
Let's say we are sitting down to do a math problem.  My problem looks like this:

209384759283475920987345 divided by 2098 longhand.  Then give me the square root.

And my opponent:

100 divided 10

When I was playing Meandeck Tendrils or Doomsday, yes I'm going to be playing slower than my opponent probably.

But sit me down with a mana drain deck, and I PROMISE that I'll player faster than you or anyone you know Ivan.  Hell, give me YOUR deck and we'll play and we'll see who is the slower player.  I would wager my whole collection that I can play your deck faster than you can and probably would in a tournament too. 

Waterbury's are great for many reasons.  But one of the downsides is that they can be laid back and there aren't really people with white striped shirts to call on when a dispute arises.  If I am playing slow, the proper thing to do isn't to fucking moan and bitch - but to CALL A JUDGE on me and have them watch and tell me if I'm playing slow or give me a warning.  I can take it.  I promise. 

But I also promise you that this nonsense about me being a slow player is just that.  Nonsense.  And if I ever play a combo deck in a tournament again, then it will probably seem like I'm playing slow as shit.  That's why I'll never play Meandeck tendrils in a tournament.  So instead of going on and on about how slow I am, why don't you come to grips with the fact that a) my opponent should call a judge if they think that is the case and b) that I'm a faster player than most of my opponents given the same deck. 

where you play half your matches agianst sui black and red decks youv'e rarly performed

Wow is that bullshit.  I distinctly remember getting 9th place at SCG Richmond - the last tourament I played in before Origins with a deck I hadn't played in a tourament with since 2003 (stax) not to mention  making top 8 multiple SCG events and, oh yeah, Gencon last year.   Second of all, no one played Suicide black or a red deck against me at Origins.  The only three Vintage tournaments with over 25 players that I haven't made top 9 in in the last year was SCG Syracuse - where I went 4-2 drop with Chalice oath - and both times I played Meandeck Tendrils. 

Once again though, there is another raving looney out there writing unpuctuated paragraphs like the unabomber ranting about me.  Where does this venom come from?

[iamfishman]

Waterbury's are great for many reasons.  But one of the downsides is that they can be laid back and there aren't really people with white striped shirts to call on when a dispute arises.  If I am playing slow, the proper thing to do isn't to fucking moan and bitch - but to CALL A JUDGE on me and have them watch and tell me if I'm playing slow or give me a warning.  I can take it.  I promise. 

But I also promise you that this nonsense about me being a slow player is just that.  Nonsense.  And if I ever play a combo deck in a tournament again, then it will probably seem like I'm playing slow as shit.  That's why I'll never play Meandeck tendrils in a tournament.  So instead of going on and on about how slow I am, why don't you come to grips with the fact that a) my opponent should call a judge if they think that is the case and b) that I'm a faster player than most of my opponents given the same deck. 

Although, I am a friend of Mykeatog and Ethan(Ivan), the bottom line is, nothing can be done at the time of the match unless a judge is called, and so there is no point in even saying more than a word of it in hindsight.  If Myke, and only Myke, thought Steve was stalling, he should have called the judge.  If I or any other judge was called over, than we would have happily assessed the situation and made the fair and impartial call based on what we thought was correct.  Unfortunately, personal attacks cannot reverse this.

Also, to pull this thread back on task.  Would any teams like to have a bit of team rivalry.  Dig this:

Teams form 3 mana combos, say Grand Inquisitor, CTThespian, and Eastman sign up as TEAM HADLEY
and Smennen, Klep, and Method sign up as MEANDECK
and Brassman, Kowal, and PTW sign up as TSB
and Zherbus, Kird Ape, and Chains sign up as MEANDECK2
etc
etc

All teams pay an additional $2 entry fee($6 per team) into a team fund.

At the end of the event, the team with the lowest average standing(since 1st place is best) wins some prize TBD.(Maybe Cash)

What do you all think?

[Gaagooch]

I am not a full user so i can only notify people in here that i will be going to this tournament.  I will be at The Mana Drain Open 7 and i will do very well.  I do not think portal should be legal for the main event.  I myself play tps, a deck that possibly stands to benefit from this, and I still believe that it should not be legal.  It is not that I am scared about what it will do to the field of decks or anything like that, it just isn't supposed to be legal so why should we go against what has been taken as the norm even if it is just once.  We play with the bannings that wizards has given us so why not also play with the car pool they have given us.  Portal will be legal soon enough, just not yet.

[Mykeatog]

A couple of things...

1. JDizlle - Skullclamp wasn't banned two days before National's last year, it was banned in the MIDDLE of the event. (Helping you prove your point). As the clock struck Midnight going into Saturday Morning, all tournaments following that moment were without the clamp. All tournaments still going on (including the national championships) were unaffected.

2. Ivan - I do not believe that Steve stalled me out. We had an excellent match. AND - come on man, so harsh - "beat by just a dealer" aren't I so much more than that? Steve - just so we are on the same page, everything is - and always has been - cool.

3. Wow, this portal shit is really getting everyone in a big huff-and-puff fest... Ray I'll be there even if you change the format to Ice Age Block Constructed.

[Mixing Mike]

Ray, you have forced me into re-registering.

For those of you who don't know yet, there's a new team in town due to TSB's implosion, known only as "GG Squad" or "GGs" for short.  From what I've heard, this is their roster.

Justin "Outlaw" Timoney
Andy "Brassman" Probasco
Ben "kowal" Kowal
"Cross" Crossman Wilkins
"Null" Rob D'Alfonso
"Mixing" Mike Daniels

I'm sure at least one mini-team will be created to enter in the Team Rivalry Challenge.  Details will be soon posted.....

[iamfishman]

3. Wow, this portal shit is really getting everyone in a big huff-and-puff fest... Ray I'll be there even if you change the format to Ice Age Block Constructed.

::Closes shades::

How did you know the format of TMD OPEN 8?

[Smmenen]

A couple of things...

2. Ivan - I do not believe that Steve stalled me out. We had an excellent match. AND - come on man, so harsh - "beat by just a dealer" aren't I so much more than that? Steve - just so we are on the same page, everything is - and always has been - cool.

That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.  We straight.  I am just trying to understand where all this NE venom at the "semenman" is coming from.  I really was curious and as far as I can tell a bunch of it has to do with the assumption that I am slow player.  And just for the record.. we drew .  I gained a bunch of life and you had Plat Angel at negative life and I failed to SB in bounce and you had counters anyway. 

BTW, Ray, here is what you should do on day two:

1996 Vintage.  Vintage with every set UP TO BUT NOT including Alliances.  How fucking fun would that be?  People could play The Deck or Suicide Black with Juzams or fucking Zoo! 

[Komatteru]

BTW, Ray, here is what you should do on day two:

1996 Vintage.  Vintage with every set UP TO BUT NOT including Alliances.  How fucking fun would that be?  People could play The Deck or Suicide Black with Juzams or fucking Zoo! 

That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.  I couldn't agree more.  Clearly, this is what everyone has wanted Vintage to be for quite some time now, since innovation and change are ruining the format.     Why not give the peoples their wishes?!

[amidtownrocker]

This whole talk of teams sounds like a pretty solid idea. I mean an extra few bucks for your team is not too much to ask, and not only do you get bragging rights when you win, you'll get some kind of prize! With this in effect, we will see how good Team Meandeck or a Team Hadley can stand with a solid way of saying they did better then each other. Who knows, maybe a team like GGs will walk away with it, or maybe a brand new team no one has heard of before..

Just another fun idea that may refresh this Waterbury Experience.

BTW, I vote for no Portal until Day2.

[Kowal]

The team idea is great.  I second it wholeheartedly.

1995 Vintage is already a format that ctthespian, wicketsnatcher, and maligor-ct (oh man, oldschoolers!) play regularly.  It looks fun as hell and I hope to have a deck ready for it by the time Waterbury rolls around.

Lastly,

But sit me down with a mana drain deck, and I PROMISE that I'll player faster than you or anyone you know Ivan.  Hell, give me YOUR deck and we'll play and we'll see who is the slower player.  I would wager my whole collection that I can play your deck faster than you can and probably would in a tournament too.

While I agree Smmenen is slow as hell when he plays combo, he's right that his mana drain wielding is pretty timely.  His Yawgmoth's Wills and Brainstorms are still longer than you expect, but his other decisions are done quite quickly.  That said, I could race his ass any day.  I can't think of many people who play faster than I do.  In fact, I don't think I've gone to time since the Syracuse event that Kevin won.

[Ivantheterrible]

Once again though, there is another raving looney out there writing unpuctuated paragraphs like the unabomber ranting about me.  Where does this venom come from?

if your going to be commenting on my writing style, you may have thought about spelling unpunctuated correctly.

Waterbury's are great for many reasons.  But one of the downsides is that they can be laid back and there aren't really people with white striped shirts to call on when a dispute arises.  If I am playing slow, the proper thing to do isn't to fucking moan and bitch - but to CALL A JUDGE on me and have them watch and tell me if I'm playing slow or give me a warning.  I can take it.  I promise.

I am not moaning. I compleatly agree with you. If i had been in mikes position i would have asked you to speed up your play. If you then did not comply i would have called ray, chris, dan or that english bloke and you would have had to make some of your descions in a more timely fashion. You are using the example of waterbury being laid back as opposed to DCI sacntioned tournments. Well i can assure you that in such a tournament you would have been given a warning for slow play and one of those dudes with the white striped shirt would have watched the game for a few turns to make sure that it went along in a timely fashion.

Belive me i use the judge as much as i can and have called the judge multiple times at waterbury. The thing is that Mike dosent care about doing well in the tournment and he dosent mind letting you play as you would when you are testing. I do and if i had been mike you would have had the judge called on you. So belive me i dont just bitch in moan i do the right thing.

 

2. Ivan - I do not believe that Steve stalled me out. We had an excellent match. AND - come on man, so harsh - "beat by just a dealer" aren't I so much more than that?  Steve - just so we are on the same page, everything is - and always has been - cool.

Mike you know i have nothing but love for you man. Youv'e helped me out many times and i would never want to insult you  or have any bad feelings between us. All i meant by the dealer thing was to show that you are in magic firstly to make money and hang out with awsome people and you care less about winning the tourny, and arn't the kind of guy that will use everything at your disposal to win (could have used judge but didn't.) The choice you made is the choice you made. But i thought i remember you saying that you would have won that match had you been given a little while longer. Personally i would be upset with myself and my opponet if they slow played and i didn't call a judge resulting in a draw instead of a win for me, but like i said thats where we differ.

Wow is that bullshit.  I distinctly remember getting 9th place at SCG Richmond - the last tourament I played in before Origins with a deck I hadn't played in a tourament with since 2003 (stax) not to mention  making top 8 multiple SCG events and, oh yeah, Gencon last year.   Second of all, no one played Suicide black or a red deck against me at Origins.  The only three Vintage tournaments with over 25 players that I haven't made top 9 in in the last year was SCG Syracuse - where I went 4-2 drop with Chalice oath - and both times I played Meandeck Tendrils.

I do think your a good player but i just think you should understand that part of skill is being able to play in a timely fashion in a tournment. I know you dont go to that many tournies and i know you have placed well at most of the ones you have been to. But the way i percieve what you say you come off as a guy with a big ego and if i didn't know your results i would think that you won like every major tourny whereas that just not the case. From the way you describe me i doubt you'll care about the way i percieve you, however i know i am not alone. You do come off as i guy with an ego relating to the most causal tournment format. I think you might see more people who come off the way you do sometimes in type 2, block and limited. I think that travis (juggernaughtgo) is by no means insane (though he is moving to LV to gamble so...) but you just said something that made him get tired of your ego and go off.

Again this is just how you are precived but if you dont want to have so much venom thrown at you you might want to think "is what i am about to write going to come off as arrogent and make me look like an ellitest.

[Smmenen]

I think you might see more people who come off the way you do sometimes in type 2, block and limited. I think that travis (juggernaughtgo) is by no means insane (though he is moving to LV to gamble so...) but you just said something that made him get tired of your ego and go off.

"go off" = crazy in my book. 

Again this is just how you are precived but if you dont want to have so much venom thrown at you you might want to think "is what i am about to write going to come off as arrogent and make me look like an ellitest.

Perhaps its just that I take Vintage seriously and I don't like it when other people don't? 

I want to emphasize, I almost never get drawn MATCHES for going to time.  I am extremeley conscientious about using my time wisely.  I frequently chastize teammates that get draws for not scooping earlier in one of the other games.  So I am very much irritated by an ill-deserved reputation for being a slow player.  Sit down and watch me at a tournament.  I play like lightning compared to many slower players like Randy Buehler, Kevin Cron, or Joe Bushman - all methodical and careful but not terribly fast.  If I have to think, it's usually one big process where I figure everything out and then bam - I play like lightning the rest of the game.

I do NOT consider this a mostly casual tourament format anymore than I consider a PTQ a mostly casual format.  When I go to a SCG event I play to win and I don't like the attitude of people who don't.  If you don't like that I don't like that perspective, too bad. 

I think Kowal was completely right about what he said about my play timing, but I'd like to challenge him on the speed thing.  I sometimes wish that there were chess clocks in magic that were feasible...

[Gaagooch]

The teams idea is great, it will allow the teams to go out there and try to prove their superiority.  I see this possibly helping the community two-fold.  First it might draw in more attendance as not only are you going for power, but now you and your team can try to prove you are the best.  And naturally because of this people will stay in the tournament longer.  Second I see it as a way to help raise a little extra money for Ray in case attendance doesnt go up. (which it will)  Everyone that is going to Waterbury is obviously shooting for the first prize, or at least a top 16 finish, but with this team tournament attached to the main event after you start out x-3 you are more likely to stay in to try and help your team. At the last Waterbury, which happened to be one of my first big type one tournaments, I personally sucked it up going 1-3 drop, if there were a team event in that and I was on a team I would have stayed in all 8 rounds.  I still had a wicked awesome time at Waterbury though even though I only went home with a signed Mana Crypt I purchased.  Everyone focuses on themselves at every tournament but it is always good to see a teammate do well, and this will help show which team truly is number one in the type one community...at least until the next waterbury...

[Samite Healer]

Posted so it can be discussed in here as well.

I don't know if any of the TO's would go for the bye thing, especially not at the prices that were suggested.  A single round bye in the first round doesn't really do anything, and especially doesn't warrant a $15-$30 fee (whoever pays it) when the entrance fee is $20.

Seriously, does one round in eight make a huge difference, especially when half the players are terrible?

The proxy idea sounds like a decent idea - it's one that has been tried and tested before.  However, I don't see that raking in more than about $50 at most since many players are well within the 10 proxy standard that has been around for some time.  Unfortunately, that won't help cover all of the expenses.

I do think that there should definitely be a cap of some sort, and that 20 may be too high.  At that point, there are several consequences and it doesn't make sense because people start to proxy sideboard cards like Rack and Ruin, Rebuild, StP, Coffin Purge, etc.  This makes it annoying to play against, and it also hurts the sales for the vendors - and those are the cards that often have the highest profit margin, not the big cards.

Day two shouldn't exist again, as it seems to me that is from where a large part of the financial problem stems.  It is tiring for everyone, the room is small and expensive, the vendors don't really subsidize the cost of the room, there is less time to recover from the weekend/traveling.


Here is an interesting idea that I think I mentioned to you before, Ray.  How about charging two different entrance fees for the tournament, each with a slightly different prize structure.

Example:  If a player pays $20 entrance fee, the top 8 prizes are as follows:

1st:   Unlimited Black Lotus
2nd:  Beta Time Walk
3rd:   Unlimited Mox Jet
4th:   Unlimited Mox Pearl
5th:   Unlimited Timetwister
6th:   Italian Mana Drain
7th:   Italian Mana Drain
8th:   Italian Mana Drain

If a player pays $23 or $25, then the prize structure is as you wrote out before.

This saves you money, while still making it a sweet tournament with excellent prize support.  Of course the structure doesn't have to be exactly the way I wrote it out, but you get the point.  If it was $23 for example, I think most people would pay the extra $3 to have their 6-8 prize upgraded from an IT Drain to a Library or $150 cash, and a Pearl to an Emerald.

Discuss.  I'll be back with more ideas, but I think this one isn't difficult to implement and would work fine, perhaps in addition to the 15 proxy-purchase 5 rule.

[Danzig]

You need a magic card vending machine. I mean who wouldn't love to pull a Drain from one of those? Of course the rest would be filled with random foils of commons and other low cost stuff , still worth $.50. Figuring out how many cards can be held and then estimating for profit would be "the win".
You could even sell tickets for a raffle and give away a few duals.

[Nehptis]

Ray:

Glad you are renewed and refreshed and back with another tourney.  They are always the premiere event of the year on the Vintage tourney scene.

Proxies:
If you can manage and control a "pay for extra proxies model" then I say go for it.  But, I foresee large challenges ahead in doing so.  If people can get away with more proxies without paying, then they will.

Portal:
I do not think portal should be tournament legal until it is DCI legal.  However, I consider Day 2 to be a side event anyway, and would not mind so much if Portal was legal on Day 2 only.

Covering your Costs:
You should post a prize structure that is conditional upon a minimum number of entries.  If that is not met then you should adjust your prizes accordingly.

I hope that everyone who attends understands that you are not a vendor/ store, this is your hobby, and you deliver this event simply from a passion for the Vintage tournament scene.  Having said that, I think that you should be able to manage your prizes just like every real store owner who has to consider the bottom line ($$).

I would rather see 10 more Waterbury tournaments with a more conservative prize structure (even with the same entry fee) than for you to continue to have to risk losing money each time.  I've walked away from 2 Waterburys with a dual land each time for finishing as the highest non-proxy player not in the top 16.  That is way more than I would ever expect.  Last week I paid $20 for a shot at a Mana Drain.  I didn't win, and I expected nothing for my effort.  And I would gladly try again.  As long as the prize structure is fair in relation to the entry fee, and the tournament is well organized then I think paying $20 or so for an entire day of fun and gaming is more than adequate.

I think people come to Waterbury to test their skills against some of the best decks and players in the World and they come because of the excellent execution/organization of the event.  The awesome prize structure to me is just icing on the cake.

[iamfishman]

Before getting into the heart of the matter, first a light hearted announcement.

The 8 random rafflles given each round during Waterbury will be:

A SET OF 5 MOX COOKIES

You heard me correct.  Thanks to a great idea from Matt, the day before Waterbury, Theresa and I will be baking cookies in the shape of the five moxes, then decorating them with the appropriate food coloring and/or frosting.  Each round someone will win one of each.

Now...for the heart of the matter.

The byes was a debatable issue.  One opnion shared with me was:

As for awarding success in other area tournament with byes at waterbury, I don't think it would work. Many people travel very far for your tournaments. Some from canada, new york, jersey, and even further. These folks are already paying a heafty price just to be there, and should not be punished for not being able to win byes at local tournaments they cannot realistically attend.

And another opinion:

Selling byes to TOs as prizes is a really good idea. I think they would be best given out as additional prizes for 1st/2nd place in tournaments, but obviously TOs might not go for that. I think it should be up to the players, so that there is like a prize draft for top 4 or something like that, which includes byes. It all depends on what the specific tournament players want, but I think its a great idea.

And finally:

I don't know if any of the TO's would go for the bye thing, especially not at the prices that were suggested.  A single round bye in the first round doesn't really do anything, and especially doesn't warrant a $15-$30 fee (whoever pays it) when the entrance fee is $20.

Some would pay $15 for a bye, some wouldn't.  Some TO's would go for it, others wouldn't.  It is true, making them be random rafflle prizes also defeats my ideal for doing them, which parallels the idea for offering them in Grand Prixs.  I don't remember where I saw it, but once on WoTC's website(or Magicthegathering.com) it was said that the purpose of byes was to reward and offer an incentive to players who have previously proven themselves in the area(or format) of the Grand Prix.

The first quote(written by Nate Baker) makes a good point of the fact that TO's far from Waterbury might not be so quick to go for purchasing Byes as prizes.  This would make it hard for people from far away to earn the right to have a Bye.

When no other method seemed like it would work, I received an email from the very intelligent Maltarlak who wrote:

Rather than having the store owners commit to a bye for first, give them and the player an option of having it as a prize.  What I mean is that a store can hold a tournament with a mox as a prize, as well as the option to purchase the round 1 bye to Waterbury.  This option to purchase would be left in the hands of the player, with the price being between $10-$15, creating no financial obligation to the TO, and the player having the ability to choose whether he will want the bye or not.  This still allows the bye to be offered as a prize, which will attract more people to the other local tournaments, basically making everyone happy.

Its brilliant in its simplicity.  Basically, any type one tournament on the planet could have a Waterbury Bye as part of its 1st place prize.  The cost of $10(This does not include entry fee) seems fair as it only takes 6 wins to top 16.
Advantages:
The TO makes no obligation, but at the same time, has something else he can advertise to add to the draw of his attendance.
The player has no obligation to take the bye as part of his prize(he may not be planning on going to Waterbury) but can purchase it if he wishes.
The whole, "reward a player who has proven his ability" ideal of a Grand Prix is upheld.

To make sure this system is not abused, however, the following must be provided as proof that the person did, in fact, win the tournament:
The tournament must have a thread posted on TMD(or some other reliable site) with a post from the TO stating that the person was the winner.
OR
I receive an email from the TO stating that the player won the event.

I will need the player's full name and email address.

The sooner this information is received, the better, however all information must be confirmed by me prior to October 10 for it to be accepted.

Does anyone see a problem with this method.  If there are no good reasons not to go forward, I believe I will put it into effect as of Monday.

[Godder]

I've run many chess tournaments under the premise of a minimum prize fund, and promising an increase if entries support it. Perhaps if you set prizes based on 150 entries, or 125 entries, and add to that if more people play? The reputation of Waterbury is what gets people to play, not the exact prize set.

Here's what I associate with Waterbury:

• A premier Vintage event, run by the people, for the people.
• Good times.
• A great prize structure.
• Community

There's no need to promise the earth, because everyone knows that when they go to Waterbury, things will be done fairly and honestly, and that it's not about making money. If you really feel it's necessary, supply multiple prize structures along with the minimum entry level for each. Setting the lower prizes first is also a good plan, since part of the dope factor of Waterbury is all the additional prizes (top female, last, best 5/3 etc.)

Additional idea: get sponsorship from a vendor/dealer/store. I'm not suggesting that they run the event, but if you can get the cards for prizes from them at a substantially reduced price, put their name on the whatever fliers/information you sent out. In the interest of keeping it in the community, perhaps one of the TMD dealers...?

Pre-registrations are good from a security point of view (large sums of cash on hand is rarely a good idea), plus it helps cover your costs from somewhere other than your own pocket. Also, some people will prefer paying by credit card if that can be arranged.

On the subject of byes, have you considered offering various packages of combinations of free entry and more than one bye along the lines of a GPT? For example, for $40 or $50, a T.O. can give away a prize of free entry + two byes, which is something well worth winning for someone who can make it to Waterbury. Perhaps price byes at $15 each, and entry at $20 (which it is anyway) and allow a T.O. to purchase any combination up to some limit.

[iamfishman]

I've run many chess tournaments under the premise of a minimum prize fund, and promising an increase if entries support it. Perhaps if you set prizes based on 150 entries, or 125 entries, and add to that if more people play? The reputation of Waterbury is what gets people to play, not the exact prize set.

Here's what I associate with Waterbury:

• A premier Vintage event, run by the people, for the people.
• Good times.
• A great prize structure.
• Community

There's no need to promise the earth, because everyone knows that when they go to Waterbury, things will be done fairly and honestly, and that it's not about making money. If you really feel it's necessary, supply multiple prize structures along with the minimum entry level for each. Setting the lower prizes first is also a good plan, since part of the dope factor of Waterbury is all the additional prizes (top female, last, best 5/3 etc.)

Additional idea: get sponsorship from a vendor/dealer/store. I'm not suggesting that they run the event, but if you can get the cards for prizes from them at a substantially reduced price, put their name on the whatever fliers/information you sent out. In the interest of keeping it in the community, perhaps one of the TMD dealers...?

Pre-registrations are good from a security point of view (large sums of cash on hand is rarely a good idea), plus it helps cover your costs from somewhere other than your own pocket. Also, some people will prefer paying by credit card if that can be arranged.

On the subject of byes, have you considered offering various packages of combinations of free entry and more than one bye along the lines of a GPT? For example, for $40 or $50, a T.O. can give away a prize of free entry + two byes, which is something well worth winning for someone who can make it to Waterbury. Perhaps price byes at $15 each, and entry at $20 (which it is anyway) and allow a T.O. to purchase any combination up to some limit.

First Godder, thank you for your kind words.  Everyone in this community is so supportive, it makes it had to not enjoy planning Waterbury.  As for TBD prizes, that is suggested alot, however, I have seen in many cases it to be attendance suicide for a TO to announce prizes based on attendance.  I can remember a very good example of a Cape Cod Event advertising a $1000 tournament with payout based on attendance.  This seemed to me like the most bizaree statement.  Isn't ANY TOURNAMENT a $1000 tournament based on attendance.  In other words, if somehow 400 people show up to Waterbury, I'd be more than happy to give $1000 to the winner.  In reality, only about 25 or so people showed up.  Also, I cringe at the idea of offering smaller guaranteed prizes.  This sets a standard for heading in the wrong direction.

One thing that I have always liked about Waterbury is something you said, "it is by the people, for the people."  I enjoy being able to run the event the way I know it should be run, and not having to answer to anyone, namely a company/store.  For this reason I have not partnered with any other store/company, though I have been asked many times by some big names.  Nothing against those companies, they are good people, but I just like doing things my way.(I hope that didn't sound coneceited)

As for pre-registrations, ya never know.  I don't plan on doing it for this one, but it is certainly a good idea, and one I can forsee doing in the future.  Thank you.

Now, as for Byes.  Since my post last night, I have received three good opinions between here and the other forum.  Someone asked if a player could acquire more than one bye.  I would say anything more than one would be a little unfair.  For that reason, I player could only get a bye in round 1.

With regard to the number of people in a tournament for which the first place winner can purchase a bye seperate from any prize the TO is giving, the following will stand:
1.) The tournament must have at least 25 people.
2.) If the tournament has between 25 and 49 people, the winner may purchase a bye for $10.
3.) If the tournament has between 50 and 74 people, the winner AND/OR the 2nd place finisher may purchase a bye for $10 each.
4.) If the tournament has 75+ people, the top 4 players may purchase a bye for $10(this will probabbly mainly be SCG events)

ALSO, a TO can still offer byes as prizes in one of two ways.  They can purchase either a round one bye without entry for $10 or a round one bye with entry fee for $30.  These can only be use as prizes for:
1.) Part of a first or second place prize if the tournament has between 25 and 49 people.
2.) Part of a top 4 place prize if the tournament has between 50 and 74 people.
3.) Part of a top 8 place prize if the tournament has 75+ people.

So as you can see, the bye rewards a merit based award, as intended, whose cost can be on the shoulders of either the player or TO, and which can go down further in the top 8 only as the size of the event increases. 

This is version 2.0 of the bye plan.  The feedback I have gotten so far has helped so far.  Any other comments before I finalize this plan? Speak no or forever hold your piece.

[Godder]

The bye plan looks reasonable. Hopefully it's well supported!

For the prize structure, TBD sucks, but saying 'this is the structure (and elaborating)', and making it clear that it's based on 150 entries, and that an increase will be forthcoming if more people enter, could be a way of doing it. By all means announce an awesome structure, but don't knock yourself out – it's better to underestimate and then add prizes, than to overestimate and either lose money or decrease prizes. The point I was trying to get across before was that we trust you to increase prizes if entries allow, so don't be afraid to use that trust.

What I meant by sponsorship (or whatever) is not the idea of teaming up with a dealer, store or T.O. (Waterbury is THE TMD event), but selling some advertising space on the info sheets, basically, and, on the day, saying how awesome so-and-so was to sponsor us (and maybe getting them to give out the prizes). Sponsorship means more prizes, after all, so it's good for everyone, as long as you retain all control of the actual running and make-up of the event itself. I don't know if a TMD dealer would help or not (Samite Healer, Mykeatog?), but it would be a nice gesture to the TMD community if they did.

All that aside, nice work . It's just a shame that I live in New Zealand, so I can't really travel.

[Jacob Orlove]

BTW, Ray, here is what you should do on day two:

1996 Vintage.  Vintage with every set UP TO BUT NOT including Alliances.  How fucking fun would that be?  People could play The Deck or Suicide Black with Juzams or fucking Zoo! 

Steve: I have a sweet book on that format, which actually includes combo decklists! It's a ton of fun to play.

Oh, and I have no problem with doing the judge thing full time and just not playing on Day 1, if there's a Day 2.

[iamfishman]

Ok ladys and gents...I decided to finalize some things once and for all.  I have about 7 or so announcements about how things are gonna go down at Waterbury...but...in the style of magicthegathering.com releasing one card from an upcoming set at a time: I'm going to announce one thing every day until I run out of stuff to say.(Maybe I want to see if I can make your head asplode in anticipation.)

Thus, onto today's announcement.

First...on the matter of Byes.  Starting today, and effective for any tournament anywhere in the world, the following will be the case:

The top finishers(top is a relative word based on the size of the event) of ANY Type 1 Tournament in the world will be rewarded with the ability to purchase a round one bye at the upcoming Waterbury TMD Open seperate from any prize the TO is giving, The following guidelines are to be considered:
1.) The tournament must have at least 25 people.
2.) If the tournament has between 25 and 49 people, the winner may purchase a bye for $10.
3.) If the tournament has between 50 and 74 people, the winner AND/OR the 2nd place finisher may purchase a bye for $10 each.
4.) If the tournament has 75+ people, the top 4 players may purchase a bye for $10(this will mainly be SCG events)

To make sure this system is not abused, however, the following must be provided as proof that the person did, in fact, win the tournament:
a.)The tournament must have a thread posted on TMD(or some other reliable site) with a post from the TO stating that the person was the winner.
OR
I receive an email from the TO stating that the player won the event.

b.)I will need the player's full name and email address.

The sooner this information is received, the better, however all information must be confirmed by me prior to October 10 for it to be accepted.  Payment must also be made by this date.

ALSO, a TO can still offer byes as prizes in one of two ways.  They can purchase either a round one bye without entry for $10 or a round one bye with entry fee for $30.  These can only be use as prizes for:
1.) Part of a first or second place prize if the tournament has between 15 and 39 people.
2.) Part of any top 4 place prize if the tournament has between 40 and 64 people.
3.) Part of any top 8 place prize if the tournament has 65+ people.

Any TO's wishing to purchase a bye must contact me prior to the day of the event for which the bye is being offered, though payment doesn't have to be received until after the tournament takes place, since if the tournament does not meet the minimmum number of players and the bye cannot be awarded, the TO will not be charged.

So as you can see, the bye is a merit based award, as intended, whose cost can be on the shoulders of either the player or TO, and which can go down further in the top 8 only as the size of the event increases. 

Tomorrow: Proxies