R/G beats discussion

[Meanee]

Well green and red are certainly not known to have cool/good carddrawers - a pity indeed, but also a certain fact.
The good thing is though, that I really don't think it is strongly necessary to draw extra cards with this deck. It is not the purpose, and in my testing with the deck (a bit different from the ones you run) I haven't often found myself in need of extra cards - it is pure beatdown baby!

One could try out the sylvan library, but that card kind of stinks a lot. There is also the browbeat, but that is also way out of reach for this deck - it is simply too costly, and too ineffective.

- meanee

[[supa_t(im)]]

Well green and red are certainly not known to have cool/good carddrawers - a pity indeed, but also a certain fact.
The good thing is though, that I really don't think it is strongly necessary to draw extra cards with this deck. It is not the purpose, and in my testing with the deck (a bit different from the ones you run) I haven't often found myself in need of extra cards - it is pure beatdown baby!

One could try out the sylvan library, but that card kind of stinks a lot. There is also the browbeat, but that is also way out of reach for this deck - it is simply too costly, and too ineffective.

- meanee

I agree.  The deck makes up for its lack of draw with consistency and card quality.  Adding draw spells always seemed to dilute the hate cards, as I would have to take some out to fit some draw in.  Draw would be good if the deck ran reactive answers, but it doesn't, it runs proactive answers like maze and pillar.  Thats why I think it is important to have both MD, so you at least draw one proactive disruption in your opening hand.

[alban]

just an idea for the draw engine...skullclamp?

[Cab]

If I run Root Maze and Pillar, should I also run Null Rod? And, what is the optimal number of creatures for this deck (I was guessing around 17-20)?

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Hm, sry but i'm a bit disapointed about many of the last "one or two line" questions 

Sure, ask questions if you have one but 75% of these questions have been discussed/answered in this topic before! So please be so kind and read the hole before you make a new post. Otherwise the topic only gets full on redundant posts more and more.

@ Cab:
You run Root Maze and Pillar maindeck ? You can put Null Rod in your sideboard too but you have to ask yourself:

• 1. In what matchups you want to sideboard it in ?
• 2. Do i need help in this matchup or is it good enough anyway ?
´

• 3. If you need help, do i have already other cards in my SB to do so ?
• 4. Do i have the space in maindeck to side all these things in ?

If you have a good answer to all these questions you might want to play Null Rod. At the moment i have chosen for myself to not use it to have more sideboard slots for other cards.

[Meanee]

just an idea for the draw engine...skullclamp?

As Negator states this issue has been taken up before, but it is not a good idea to put skullclamp in your rg beatz simply because you need your creatures to beat the skull of your opponent. You could of course use them to equip lets say kird apes, end then wait until Kird Ape dies, but that is ineffective and it takes a lot of place and mana and time.

- meanee

[Sundberg]

Hull breach is the nr1 sb card - oath is a bad matchup so it's really needed. There is no need of playing rogue elephants right?

[Meanee]

Indeed there is no need of playing the elephants...
About the hull breach: Actually it looks kind of awesome... it is almost a posible mbcard because it is both artiact destruction and enchantmentdestruction in one... Hmmm I'm getting a couple.

- meanee

[Ben Kossman]

Sensei's Divining Top in a build with Fetchlands and Land Grant to reshuffle seems quite good to me. Is anyone else testing this idea?

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Sensei's Divining Top in a build with Fetchlands and Land Grant to reshuffle seems quite good to me. Is anyone else testing this idea?

Short answer: Its bad for this deck.

If - if means that this is not a must - you want to run any kind of card draw i suggest Sylvan Library or SoFI but not Sensei. Sensei can be used in deck were you have the mana to use it EOT. This is not the case in RG Beatz.


About Hullbreach:
It has been discussed about 193 times before. Naturalize > Hull Breach. Simply because two facts:
1. Naturalize is an instant, Hull breach isn't.
2. In what situations can you destroy an artifact and an enchantment ? A very rare situation.

[Meanee]

2. In what situations can you destroy an artifact and an enchantment ? A very rare situation.

I remember having seen an oath AND a mox on the other side of the table... But you are right on the instantpoint...

Is 4 rancor necessary? I have recently cut it down to three, and I actually seldom enjoy to pull one off the top of lib...
I think I would rather play something like incinerate, chain, or more price of progress, or even mb some of my sb stuff, instead of the last three rancors... Do you think it is a dead necessity?

- meanee

[[supa_t(im)]]

Instant speed is huge, and even with that Oath example, how many other decks run lots of enchantments to nuke?

Also, I always like the 7/10 example.  When titan comes into play he blows up your manabase, are you gonna have enough mana to play a sorcery to kill him and still have a manabase left over when he blows it up by leaving?

I only play 3 rancor, but I'm debating whether to use jitte in that slot.  I like a card like rancor or jitte over extra burn because consistent damage > one time damage.  Some people choose not to run them, like Dave Feinstein, who runs hidden gibbons instead I believe.  Either way the consistent damage wins out.

[Meanee]

I've tested jitte, and honestly; it is way too slow... I play an unpowered version of the deck (no mox/lotus, but 4 esg and a lone lotus petal instead), and maybe that is the reason why jitte has proven itself to be worthless for me. Of course it depends on the rest of your list, but i prefer to play null rod and root maze over jitte - and I think it is impossible to play them all together - also jitte/maze. The maze sets you back - no doubt, and then - I think -  the jitte is even worse.

By the way, the hidden gibbons is great in a LOT of matchups - I play 2 mb and I am thinking about getting another couple to my sb, but I don't think I will...

- meanee

[Sundberg]

I agree with you meanee, jitte is slow. Maby Hull breach isn't that good and i even agree naturalize>hull breach in very many situations. The hidden creatures is pretty random, but 2 mb gibbons sounds ok. Maby some hidden guerillas sb?

[[supa_t(im)]]

I've tested jitte, and honestly; it is way too slow... I play an unpowered version of the deck (no mox/lotus, but 4 esg and a lone lotus petal instead), and maybe that is the reason why jitte has proven itself to be worthless for me. Of course it depends on the rest of your list, but i prefer to play null rod and root maze over jitte - and I think it is impossible to play them all together - also jitte/maze. The maze sets you back - no doubt, and then - I think -  the jitte is even worse.

By the way, the hidden gibbons is great in a LOT of matchups - I play 2 mb and I am thinking about getting another couple to my sb, but I don't think I will...

- meanee

I've tested jitte a little in a powered version, and its been good sometimes.  However, the problem you pointed out with root maze has come up.  Its much easier to play a root maze + threat turn one, then rancor that threat turn 2 to start the beatdown.  Jitte does help against some problem matchups though.  It can take down an Akroma, its another way to kill welder, it can be a faster clock than rancor.

I'm still torn.  Meh, I guess I'll just stick with rancor until I can get my hands on some jittes to play IRL.

[Saxo]

Just a few things:

- Wow, I'd just like to say that this thing woops the bejesus out of Dragon. Forest, Rootmaze, scoop. And if you can't pull that on turn 1-2, then Naturalize + Shaman + Wasteland should slow them down enough for you to beat them down. After Sideboard I bring in Ground Seal/ Pyrostatic Pillar, for an even more one sided match. I guess Rootmaze just does that to combo, because it sure as hell screws up Long's Yawgmoth's Will.

-This little house of a deck also just messes up anything artifact. Shamans, Naturalize, and Art. Mutations(I play a pair maindeck, ph34r the Trisk) are all pretty brutal, as is your ability to nuke welder with Bolts, Chains, or Mancers. Enough on what it hates, I have some questions about the less talked about matches.

The control match I'm a little less worried about is Oath. If I can keep Oath off the board with Charm or Naturalize, the game= mine. So six hate cards plus Wastes to kill off any green produers should win me enough games to be favorable.
But blue anything is a little tougher. I've kept my mana curve clear of anything above 3 to avoid Drains, but I'm looking at my side board, and guessing that 4 REBs just won't cut it... suggestions?

-Also, who has any results against fish? I haven't tested this at all, and I'm wondering what you guys have found. Maybe Clasms in the board....Lava Dart (OMG, WTF!!111!1!)?

-Jitte is slow as hell in here. Period.

-I'm running Rootwallas as well, and loving them. Rancored Rootwalla= the Green Negator (Well, not quite). These are in what most of the lists would call 'the Boa spot.' I play in a 10 proxy tournament where I don't see alot of blue, so the Boa feels like it doesn't always pull its weight at 2cc.

I think the deck has a good shot at taking it all home, or coming close IF it is piloted correctly by an expirienced player who knows the deck well and has taken the effort to metagame it corectly. R/G has almost always had the tools available to hate out nearly any deck, and this most recent incarnation is no different.

There's already alot of lists, so I won't clutter the thread any further, but for reference here's my side board for a highly diverse metagame leaning toward artifacts and combo (keep in mind I'm already running 2 Art. Mutations main):

4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Emerald Charm
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Ground Seal
2 FISH HATER

[Law]

I hope to do some real life testing with jittie (I have 1 so it might not happen or happen to late to change the out come of the game). But with what I was seeing on line (vs Tim and my own testing) it pulls its own in the deck. Rancor is faster but both seems to help in there own way.

[Saxo]

With 7-8 Bolts and 3-4 Lavamancers, in my opinion the Jitte is simply slower than Rancor, and won't be doing that much to help your game.

[Law]

With only 1 Jitte in the deck it did not see it in play. So ill try again when I get more. Well for the gear anyway.

[[supa_t(im)]]

With 7-8 Bolts and 3-4 Lavamancers, in my opinion the Jitte is simply slower than Rancor, and won't be doing that much to help your game.

I only play with 4 bolts 4 lavamancers and MD pillars.  So I don't have THAT much removal.  Also, jitte makes taking on an Akroma not so bad IF you can play it fast enough, which seems to be the big question.

If you do the math, it actually equals the amount of damage done by rancor by turn 6, and surpases it by turn 7 assuming you get both active as quickly as possible and that you don't leave counters on jitte.

[Ben Kossman]

Is anyone using Viridain Zealot? It seems to fit in perfectly with the overall deck concept.

[MCS]

I've runned the deck in a 10 proxy tournament, and I've lost to a stax deck in quaterfinals, mostly due to my mistakes (I've won the guy 2-0 prior in the tournament). The deck is realy good, and it's only realy horrible matchup is oath. Even maindeck naturalizes and emerald charmes sb are not enough to fight it.

[dromar]

Is anyone using Viridain Zealot? It seems to fit in perfectly with the overall deck concept.

I don't think Viridian Zealot would work out. It would be great to have a Naturalize that can attack, but I think there are too many problems with it.

1. It's too green
2. It's too expensive
3. It's not really that powerful

If you've got it in your hand, you need to pay 1GGG to do the same job as naturalize, and it's only sorcery speed to play as a creature. Once it's out, it's ok, but I think naturalize is a better choice when you need to remove artifacts/enchantments. Honestly, if you ever plan on using the Viridian's ability, then Naturalize is better. After that, all you're left with is a weak creature that's tough to cast.

[mmmetaphor]

hi, good discussion going on here about my favorite deck type.  Here are a few other possible additions to consider:

1) +1 Pendlehaven (if you have enough basic forests in your build to drop one).  I've found it to be pretty decent due to the amount of 1/1's the deck uses (mox monkey, grim lavamancer, artifact mutation tokens and even rootwalla's in some builds).

2) +1 or 2 Sylvan Library.  Works great with fetch lands and the deck is so aggressive that paying the life for an extra card or two rarely hurts that much.  Only thing I'd worry about is if it is to slow for todays vintage scene..

Also another interesting idea is to use Ashnod's Transmogrant w/ artifact mutations.  The problem for me is I'm hesitant to drop the rancor's in favor of Ashnod's (I don't think running them both is a good idea, there would be too many hands where you woudn't have a creature but you'd have a rancor(s) and ashnods).  Rancor is the better beatdown card but if one of r/gs worst matchups is vs oath and there is alot of that in your local metagame you might consider the Ashnod strategy.

Anyway, just thought I'd add my 2 cents.       

[Mantis]

I have been working on a build including Green as well, started with Mono Green but had the feeling I was missing something, then Blue/Green; drew too many crappy hands. Now I have splashed red and it's been working out just fine.

I play a slightly different build than you guys do, including Llanowar Elves and Mishra's Factories. I also prefer Jitte above Rancor, but that might be because I run a bit more lands and Llanowar elves. Jitte gives your creatures +4/+4 a turn! It also clears the path for your creatures, and it kills WTF's Jittes.

I can post my build if anyone is intrested.

Greets Guus

[Reverend]

For drawing try Overwhelming Instinct. Its a G2 enchantment that should draw you and extra card each turn

[prosbloom225]

Artifact mutate and seedtime are tech to the max.  I run 2x esg and 4x artifact mutation mainboard with all the staxx running around after scg chicago.  Seedtime seems to be one of the best cards you can play against any deck with blue.  Eot ancestral response-seedtime take an extra 8.  Artifact mutation is great vs stax and especially aggro shop.  Though r/g beats gets owned by combo, it can beat some drain decks and it stomps shop decks.  With the current meta its one of my choices.

[Prometheon]

Yeah, I too feel that Artofact Mutation is far better than Naturalize. You lose to Oath, and Naturalize doesn't really help, whereas Arti Mutate is amazing in all your other matchups.

Also, River Boa has the same problem, and in a build with Root Maze and Mongrel, I've been prefereing Basking Rootwalla to Boa. Give it a shot, it's mad synergy.

Keep working on the deck; it's awesome.

[prosbloom225]

Skullclamp is awesome with artifact mutation mainboard.

[tidal kraken]

I wouldn't run Artifact Mutation maindeck. Yes, it's sweet against shop decks, but, naturalize hurts them too(though it doesn't give you the tokens). I've actually beaten oath, it's not toally unwinnable, though it is difficult.