R/G beats discussion

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Hi everyone, i've been to Iserlohn (Germany) with R/G Rootbeatz and i'm interested if anyone has some ideas for the deck/sideboard.

First about Iserlohn.
116 people played there. 1st prize was a LoA. It's the biggest turnament here in germany at the moment. I whould say it was a good mix of decks with a bit more Dragon or Celebral Assassin.

My decklist:

Mana:
3x Forest
1x Mox Emerald
3x Mountain
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Taiga
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
4x Elvish Spirit Guide (creature and mana)

Creatures:
4x River Boa
4x Kird Ape
2x Skyshrould Elite (-2, +2 Wild Mongrels instead)
4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Gorilla Shamane

Disruption Spells:
4x Root Maze
4x Naturalize
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning
4x Rancor

Sideboard:
4x Artifact Mutation
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Emerald Charm (vs Oath)
1x Fireblast (i sided it in vs all combo instead of a chain lightning)



How i played:
2-0 vs Unpowered (at least i saw no power) FCG

2-1 vs Unpowered Keeper: One game i lost to a Mindtwist for 3 followed by Moat+Angel after he was down to 7 life.

2-0 vs Mono Blue (no powered but drains)

2-0 vs Powered Enchantress + Squirrel/Earthcraft Combo

2-0 vs Powered Keeper

0-2 vs Powered CS:
Game one 1 was able to bring him to 1 Life...and there he stayed killing me with a welder, Trisk and a Titan (but no Angel). I didn't get to see a single damage spell the hole game :/. Game two i made a heavy misplay that cost me the game in my eyes. I had a fetch, mountain and a Root Maze on start hand. I played a fetch and used it to get a basic forest and played root maze. This was the mistake I didn't realised two important things.
First: he played no wastelands at all...i should have noticed this in game one. Second but even more important: I had 2 Kirds and a grim on my hand but with a forest and a taped mountain in turn two i was not able to play one of them before turn 3 were he was able to counter! In the end he was down to six Life and i'm more or less sure that my misplay gave him the time he needed.
He won the turnament with 6-1-0 in the end.

1-2 vs Powered Celebral Assassin:
I had to mulligan down to 5 to get a land and at least one card i could play on my hand. I bolted a welder and wasted a land. I started beatdown with a rancor on my lavamancer but not much left on my hand. In the end i lost. Game two my starthand with, waste, waste, strip. taiga, naturalize, naturalize, mutation was two much for him... Game three he killed me first round with bazaar for dragon, mox, mox animate. He was #5 in the end.

The only important misplay i noticed was vs CS.
I finshed with 15 points at #10.


Now the things i'm thinking about:
-1 Mountain +1 Mox Ruby
When the letter with it arrives

-1 or 2 or 3 Chain Lightnings and replace them with Mog Fanatics ?
I'm really unsure about this. Pro: The Mog puts more pressure on the board. This is very important for the deck. Con: Mog fanatics can't kill 2/2 angels and grim + mog can't kill 4/5 angels. Another con is that Mog need 3 turns to deal 3 damage to a player, chain only needs one turn for this.

Maybe add a chrome mox instead of a land ?
I don't know if this is good with 2 real mox in the deck and no Shrapnel Blast.

Add something that can use rootmaze or naturalize if i don't need them (anymore) ?
The only possible things for this deck i know are:
chrome mox
Bounty of the hunt, i whould like to add this but if i cut a creature for this i feel like having a not optimal pumpspell/creature ratio and the only non creature spell i might cut for bounty is rancor an IMO rancor > bounty

Is Blood Moon usefull against TPS ? I think it could be but i have not tested this. If it is usefull in this matchup, maybe it could replace REB in the board. REB is very strong but in my eyes it can only be boarded vs TPS and Mono-U because i don't have more slots in maindeck to board it in in other matchups. Another one i don't like about REB is that it is reactive and i am forced to save one red mana. This can be a problem in the early turns.

How much artifact hate do you board vs CS ? Naturalize and Mutation or only Mutation ?

[AnFgangsta]

Hey, I was tinkering around with a form of beats and found out that maindecking Goblin Vandals WITH Shamans is just brutal when it comes to the CS/Stax, etc matchup and is helpful against TPS assuming they dont go off first turn.  As far as Naturalize is concerned..I did not see you mention Oath as a matchup so if your Meta is lacking Oath I would get rid of Naturalize either for a few Artifact Mutations or Oxidize.  Artifacts are what you as the R/G player have the advantage over, quick, cheap removal/hate is the key to these matchups.

One thing I do not like is River Boa, the 2 cost is what turns me off the most, for that you can play 2 threats/burn spells/whatever.  Just seems like a waste to me, maybe run Rogue Elephant/Fanatic/Jungle Lion (basically a 1 drop) or even the abovementioned utility.  Thats all I can think of from the top of my head, forgive if I forgot anything.

[Tobi]

The best use I see for dead cards is Wild Mongrel. He is really good and has also synergy with Grim Lavamancer.

I would not cut Chain Lightnings for Fanatics, 8 (or even 7) burn spells are minimum in RG. Maybe the Skyshroud Elite could go for Fanatics.

How did your mana-base work out? You could probably cut one Forest since you run 4 ESGs.

Blood Moon can be a nice hoser, but with 3 Mana it is too expensive in my opinion. You already have the Root Maze and REBs to fight TPS.

And BTW: Congratulations for placing well with this deck!  

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Hm...Mongrel a nice idea. I will test this. Question is what to cut ? Cutting River Boa because it has 2cc like Mongrel seems to be natural but i really like the boa. She is so strong. But every card should be discussed thats right. Maybe i cut the two elites and 1 boa or 1 lavamancer for 2-3 Mongrels and test it.

My manabase works very solid. I only have to mulligan because of mana very seldom (in this turnament only the two times in game one vs Celebral Assassin and maybe i should have keep my first hand with waste+mountain but no red card to play). I could try and cut a forest, but this needs testing again.

About Naturalize:
I hate it for one thing, it stays in my hand and i have to wait for my opponent to play something i wanna destroy because it's damned reactive.
But i love it for one big thing, it helps maindeck vs in three important matchups were Mutation can't do this: FCG, Oath and Dragon/Assassin. If Oath goes back i will think about less Naturalizes and more Mutations maindeck. For now i will take things like they are and leave it as it is at this point.

[Methuselahn]

Going 5-0 then losing the next 2 to the same deck.  

Hmm, I'm not sure how much help the internet can help your deck.  I mean this in a good way.   R/G Beatdown has always been a metagame deck and you probably know your own meta better than the internet community.

Saying this, I would try swapping Artifact Mutations for the Naturalizes maindeck.   Maybe even cut something for Mutation.  Also, be sure to test Ground Seal enough.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Hey, I was tinkering around with a form of beats and found out that maindecking Goblin Vandals WITH Shamans is just brutal when it comes to the CS/Stax, etc matchup and is helpful against TPS assuming they dont go off first turn.  As far as Naturalize is concerned..I did not see you mention Oath as a matchup so if your Meta is lacking Oath I would get rid of Naturalize either for a few Artifact Mutations or Oxidize.  Artifacts are what you as the R/G player have the advantage over, quick, cheap removal/hate is the key to these matchups.

One thing I do not like is River Boa, the 2 cost is what turns me off the most, for that you can play 2 threats/burn spells/whatever.  Just seems like a waste to me, maybe run Rogue Elephant/Fanatic/Jungle Lion (basically a 1 drop) or even the abovementioned utility.  Thats all I can think of from the top of my head, forgive if I forgot anything.

I don't understand, you dislike river boa because of the 2 cost, but you advocate a 3cc creature in the deck.  R/G already has enough tools in the deck to deal with stax, and any other welder based deck.

As for naturalize, its not just good against Oath.  It takes out key cards in some of your worst matchups.  Dragon, FCG, Cerebral Assassin, and any deck using artifact mana acceleration.  I think it deserves the MD slot because its useful against any deck, and mutation can be narrow.

I like the idea of mongrel.  Maybe try them in the elite spot.  Since you will only be running 2 of them, I don't think the 2cc will be prohibitive.

For your SB, I think emerald charm may be overdoing it.  It is very narrow, only good against Oath.  There is only so much you can do for the Oath matchup (and after testing extensively, I don't find that its impossible), and you don't want to dilute your SB too much.  I think some more combo hate could go here, like null rod.

The deck looks good though, congrats on a decent finish with a rogue deck.

[Bibi]

What do you think about 3 Maze of ith in sideboard against oath or dragon ?

[jazzykat]

WRT Maze of Ith: Oath has wastelands and what were you doing against dragon to stop them from comboing you out?

[cardiffgiant]

If Root Maze is on the board, Dragon can't combo out.

I created a similar UGR deck (see Clamp Aggro-Control thread a couple weeks ago). I used Skullclamp as a draw engine. Since you don't run Null Rod, You might want to try it.

I think 4 Lavamancer's is definitely too much. It'd replace at least 1 with a Rootwalla or Hidden Gibbon
 
Given you have no draw (maybe Browbeat?) I think you have too many lands. Possibly replace 2 mountains and a forest with 3 Land Grants.

Good luck. I'm curious about your results again more powered decks.

[[supa_t(im)]]

What do you think about 3 Maze of ith in sideboard against oath or dragon ?

Oath, naturalize (if not MDed) and rancored boas should do the trick.  Practice a lot and this match up becomes not as hard as people think.

Dragon, WTF do you need maze of ith for?  Get root maze on the table and you're set.  Naturalize helps as well.

I created a similar UGR deck (see Clamp Aggro-Control thread a couple weeks ago). I used Skullclamp as a draw engine. Since you don't run Null Rod, You might want to try it.

I think 4 Lavamancer's is definitely too much. It'd replace at least 1 with a Rootwalla or Hidden Gibbon

Given you have no draw (maybe Browbeat?) I think you have too many lands. Possibly replace 2 mountains and a forest with 3 Land Grants.

The deck makes up for lack of draw with consistency and gorilla shaman (and sometimes artifact mutation).  I think clamp would be a bad idea since there really aren't any great clamp targets, and to fit them in the most likely choice would be rancor, and that is just a bad idea.

4 lavamancers seem like a lot, but fish ran 4 and it did fine.  The deck thrives on its ability to remove welders, and taking out a lavamancer seems to go against the deck's strategy.  I suppose it might be alright, but it just seems risky to me.

Browbeat?  Please no.  Its just a really bad card, and doesn't fit the mana curve of the deck anyway.  The land issue I have been looking at as well.  However, I don't think running land grants is the answer.  Counterable fetches that you have to show your hand for (because who hardcasts the things?) is not a good idea.  Maybe less land in general, or more fetches.  Less land seems more plausible, since more fetches can hurt your strategy.  The question is, can this deck function with only 18 permanent mana sources?

[Astro]

I would toy around with cutting Chain Lightning for Skullclamp for draw.  Also, I think 4 Root Maze is too many main deck, I'd cut it down to 3 and put the 4th on the sb.  There is also some good "lock" style synergy with Crucible of Worlds and Root Maze that might need to be checked into. 

[Z3phyr]

In my opinion, the 4 Root Maze is what makes the deck viable.  Root Maze is a powerhouse against almost any deck out there, and dropping one down early in the game often means the difference between a win or a loss.  I realize that drawing a second Root Maze is a completely dead card, but having 4 to have the consistency in the deck I believe is more important.  Plus, in my build I run 2-3 wild mongrels to get rid of dead cards like second Root Mazes.

I also agree with Tim that consistency in this deck is more important than draw.  In this build, the chain lightning is more important.  The extra burn can mean a faster clock and a more aggressive deck, but more importantly it can assure that dangerous little creatures such as Welder are always taken care of.

Crucible and Root Maze IS a pretty wicked lock, and I'll look into my deck to toy with it a bit, but I just don't see what I could cut to include it.

[[supa_t(im)]]

There is also some good "lock" style synergy with Crucible of Worlds and Root Maze that might need to be checked into. 

But wastelands come into play tapped under maze, which basically nullifies CoW.  The card is actually used AGAINST CoW using decks.

As for root maze, turn 1 root maze is important enough to run 4 of MD.  Its the deck's most important turn 1 play.

[Bibi]

does exist any card in green or red like boomerang ?

could be nice against oath :d

[AmbivalentDuck]

As hokey as it sounds...Dawnstrider would give Oath real problems.  If you have a Boa in play, the game ends right there.

[Z3phyr]

I've been playing with the idea of replacing two kird apes with two "genju of the spires".

1.  It fits the mana curve pretty well.
2.  With burn in the deck, there arent often many blockers, and it will often be able to get through to deal 6 dmg.
3.  What about having it in the SB?  Against Combo and control, it can provide a much faster clock without taking out any of the deck's disruption. 
4.  Its not card disadvantage, because it goes back to your hand if your mountain dies.

I'll gonna keep testing this.  The only thing that holds it back a bit is paying the 2 mana every turn.

[cardiffgiant]

Without any draw, I don't think this deck can effectively deal with Control-Combo or pure Combo. It would seem this deck would scoop to Oath and still have problems with TPS. I know from experience that a Root Maze on the table is not game over for the deck.

I'm also surprised Keeper lost to it. Balance or Moat should have provided the time to stabilize.

I like the deck. The combination of Root Maze, River Boa, Rancor, and Grim Lavamancer is solid. River Boa+Rancor is an incredible mini-combo. Kird Apes are nice bodies. Gorilla Shaman isn't bad, but could also reasonably be Goblin Tinker or Goblin Vandals.

Good luck.

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Here my up to date decklist: (the differences to the old one)

Mana:
3x Forest
1x Mox Emerald
2x Mountain (-1)
1x Mox Ruby (+1)
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Taiga
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
4x Elvish Spirit Guide (creature and mana)

Creatures:
4x River Boa
4x Kird Ape
2x Wild Mongrels (+2, -2 Skyshrould Elite)
4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Gorilla Shamane

Disruption Spells:
4x Root Maze
4x Naturalize
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning

Other:
4x Rancor

Sideboard:
4x Artifact Mutation
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Emerald Charm (vs Oath)
1x Fireblast (i sided it in vs all combo instead of a chain lightning)


- 4 Root Maze is a "must play" if you ask me. I want it as soon as possible in play and i don't have any tutor/card draw so i have to play 4 of them.
- The Mongrel is very very good. It makes my not needed mazes/lands/naturalizes more usefull again and is a very good creature to beat. I whould like to add a 3rd one but i'm unsure what to cut for. Boa...Ape...Grim... ?
- I hope to get a Lotus this week  , but i'm a bit unsure what it should replace. A land or ESG ? And if a land, a Forest or a Taiga ?
- I think i will take out 1-3 Emerald Charms out of SB. I'm not sure what to put in these slots but the charm is only usefull against Oath and for me it looks like that there is not so much Oath out there anymore. If i have to play against Oath it is not my best matchup fore sure but it's not an autoloss. But i have to test this.

Sunday 17th April is the next ~128 turnament in Iserlohn so i will be able to present some new results after that 

[Astro]

I really like this deck, a couple comments.  I would like to see 4 Mongrels main, Mongrel is just so incredibly strong.  I also feel you should really test Skullclamp with them.  The synergy between drawing cards and dumping them to Mongrel is very nice and always makes sure that you have a threat in the form of Naturalized and such.  I still don't think the Chains are necessary, do to the fact that you already have 8 direct damage/removal maindeck in the form of Lavamancers and Bolts. 

One last thing.  You might want to consider running Land Grant or Karplusan Forest over Wooded Foothills as Fecthies have very poor synergy with Root Maze.  The nice thing about Root Maze is that when you don't run Fetchies yourself, your punishing all the other decks that do.  Sorta how Null Rod fits nicely in decks without Moxen.  Which brings up another point, Null freaking Rod.

EDIT:  (after much toying around with your deck I had to add this in, but didn't want to double post).  If I were you here is exactly what I'd do as Null Rod is such a house against so many top decks (Slaver mostly but holds its own in every other match up as well).  Also, it sounds retarded, but Winter Orb has some pretty gnarly synergy with Root Maze and holds its own by its self while you pound away with Racored bullies.



-4 Wooded Foothills  +4 Land Grant / Karplusan Forest
-4 Elvish Spirit Guide  +2 Winter Orb +2 basic lands   (Spirit Guide is good, however I've alway felt it fit the worst in aggro decks as its either a bad Dark Ritual or a crappy creature, I normally leave it for combo such as belcher)
-3 Chain Lightning     +3 Null Rod
-1 River Boa             +1 Wild Mongrel

Meat and Potatoes

Meat: 21
3x River Boa
3x Wild Mongrel
4x Kird Ape
4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Gorilla Shaman
4x Rancor

Potatoes: 17
4x Root Maze
3x Null Rod
2x Winter Orb
4x Naturalize
4x Lightning Bolt

Mana: 22
4x Forest
3x Mountain
4x Karplusan Forest
4x Taiga
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby

No matter what you do your going to have Oath problems, this is where I'd work on the sb.  You should however now be able to pound Slaver and still keep good unexpected matchups with every thing else in the field. 

[[supa_t(im)]]

Fetches should stay, even with root maze.  The deck only runs 4, and if you are smart, it should never hurt you to play fetch lands.  Land grant is a counterable fetch that makes you reveal your hand to the opponent.  That is not good for an aggro deck.  Fetches are uncounterable and feed the lavamancer.  Its not nearly as bad as you think.

Thinking of taking out ESG is making me sick.  Its not your fault, or anything, I just have been using them in an aggro deck for almost 2 years now, and they allowed me to beat Hulk with old school R/G Beatz. Elvish spirit guide is essential to the deck. After all, it is called R/G TEMPO, and ESG adds to that tempo. Turn 1 mountain, esg->maze, gorilla shaman is killer. Or turn 2 tap out for boa with back up regen mana with ESG. I always love the comfort of having that free green mana when I have ESG in my hand. Although I will agree that in its current state, R/G Tempo doesn't maximize ESG as fully as previous builds, it still pulls its weight in the deck.

My build runs pillar and rod in the SB for the TPS matchup because usually root maze can't do it on its own.  Rod just doesn't seem good MD anymore, especially since the deck already runs root maze and gorilla shaman MD.  Oath really isn't as bad as people think.  Root maze hurts them a lot, and rancored boa can potentially race them.  This is another place where ESG is very helpful.  Winter orb is nice with root maze, but does it really help any of the matchups this deck has trouble with?  No, it only helps the control matchup, which the deck already fairs well against.  If anything, more hate would dilute the deck's threat base, and should only be in the SB.

[xrobx]

I haven't been rocking this deck since the last Syracuse SCG tourny, but just a note on oath matchups:

who really runs 2/3 creature kill oath anymore?  No one, from most people I've played against.

Usually, it's a better strategy for oath players to just run a "win now" combo condition.  Things like auriok salvagers+pyrite+lotus are huge, as are things like white bringer+mindslaver.  Yes, akroma is nice, but it's just too predictable anymore to run spirit and akroma and hope that no body has a solution to it; trust me, they will.

Elvish lyrist is always a solid answer to oath, and so is naturalize (a card this deck should have 4 of anyhow).

[Astro]

Fetches should stay, even with root maze.  The deck only runs 4, and if you are smart, it should never hurt you to play fetch lands.  Land grant is a counterable fetch that makes you reveal your hand to the opponent.  That is not good for an aggro deck.  Fetches are uncounterable and feed the lavamancer.  Its not nearly as bad as you think.

Thinking of taking out ESG is making me sick.  Its not your fault, or anything, I just have been using them in an aggro deck for almost 2 years now, and they allowed me to beat Hulk with old school R/G Beatz. Elvish spirit guide is essential to the deck. After all, it is called R/G TEMPO, and ESG adds to that tempo. Turn 1 mountain, esg->maze, gorilla shaman is killer. Or turn 2 tap out for boa with back up regen mana with ESG. I always love the comfort of having that free green mana when I have ESG in my hand. Although I will agree that in its current state, R/G Tempo doesn't maximize ESG as fully as previous builds, it still pulls its weight in the deck.

My build runs pillar and rod in the SB for the TPS matchup because usually root maze can't do it on its own.  Rod just doesn't seem good MD anymore, especially since the deck already runs root maze and gorilla shaman MD.  Oath really isn't as bad as people think.  Root maze hurts them a lot, and rancored boa can potentially race them.  This is another place where ESG is very helpful.  Winter orb is nice with root maze, but does it really help any of the matchups this deck has trouble with?  No, it only helps the control matchup, which the deck already fairs well against.  If anything, more hate would dilute the deck's threat base, and should only be in the SB.

You make some good solid points.  I'm still not there with you on the Fetch land argument, but the rest of your points are very valid.  You've convinced me on ESG and Null Rod I guess is a meta call.  Either way it doesn't totally suck if you have Root Maze + Shaman combo, but its not quite as necessary.

My only argument with the whole Fetch land deal is: Yes Land Grant can suck if it gets countered, but many times if your opponent wants to waste a counterspell on a Land Grant then let em.  The deck can run quite efficiently on 1 to 2 mana.  Also, who cares if they see your hand, there aren't really any particular bombs worth countering  outside of Root Maze, and that should be dropped first turn anyway. 

On another note Karplusan Forest seems not shitty too.  Much of the time its used for colorless mana anyway.  I'd rather take a few points of damage and be able to use my mana under Root Maze than wait 3 turns to get it stablized.  To be honest, I feel Karplusan Forest is really the route the deck should go.

[Dante]

I haven't been rocking this deck since the last Syracuse SCG tourny, but just a note on oath matchups:

who really runs 2/3 creature kill oath anymore?  No one, from most people I've played against.

How about the guy who came in 2nd at Star City?

[xrobx]

You'd have to be more specific, as there are many "star city" tournaments

And that is besides the point; the point is this deck shouldn't worry about finding solutions to oaths creatures it oaths up; a 6/6 and a 6/5 are big, and you don't really have efficient ways of stopping them.  It is a much better strategy to stop the oath itself.  You can outrace oath, but it does prove to be difficult.

[[supa_t(im)]]

You make some good solid points.  I'm still not there with you on the Fetch land argument, but the rest of your points are very valid.  You've convinced me on ESG and Null Rod I guess is a meta call.  Either way it doesn't totally suck if you have Root Maze + Shaman combo, but its not quite as necessary.

My only argument with the whole Fetch land deal is: Yes Land Grant can suck if it gets countered, but many times if your opponent wants to waste a counterspell on a Land Grant then let em.  The deck can run quite efficiently on 1 to 2 mana.  Also, who cares if they see your hand, there aren't really any particular bombs worth countering  outside of Root Maze, and that should be dropped first turn anyway. 

On another note Karplusan Forest seems not shitty too.  Much of the time its used for colorless mana anyway.  I'd rather take a few points of damage and be able to use my mana under Root Maze than wait 3 turns to get it stablized.  To be honest, I feel Karplusan Forest is really the route the deck should go.

Land grant was talked about a lot in the last two threads about R/G Tempo (which, by the way, is a different deck than Beatz).  xrobx used fetchlands in SCG Syracuse and came to a 5-3-0 finish, which isn't too shabby.  Because the deck can run on 1-2 land is precisely the reason to use fetchlands over land grant.  Since the deck only runs 4, very rarely are you gonna get 2 fetchlands and no other land in your hand with a root maze.  Revealing your hand to your opponent is never a good thing, even if you just have a bolt in your hand.  They may hold that welder back until they have a counter.  It completely changes their strategy when they see your exact strategy.  Part of R/G's strength is to be a surprise.  If you lose that surprise, you lose some strategy.  Also, the deck may run on on 1-2 lands, but what if you can't get those 2 lands because land grant got countered.  If they see you need a land, and they have a counter, they most likely will counter the grant to stall you for 1-2 turns or more.  Usually, its not a good situation.  For the 6+ months I've been playing the deck, I've only been screwed by a fetch under maze once, and that was my error for playing a basic first instead of the fetch, knowing full well that I was going to play a root maze.

Null rod is a meta call probably.  Heavy slaver might constitute null rod MD, or heavy combo.  Even heavy affinity, although I've found affinity a push over for this deck.

[Astro]

Land grant was talked about a lot in the last two threads about R/G Tempo (which, by the way, is a different deck than Beatz).  xrobx used fetchlands in SCG Syracuse and came to a 5-3-0 finish, which isn't too shabby.  Because the deck can run on 1-2 land is precisely the reason to use fetchlands over land grant.  Since the deck only runs 4, very rarely are you gonna get 2 fetchlands and no other land in your hand with a root maze.  Revealing your hand to your opponent is never a good thing, even if you just have a bolt in your hand.  They may hold that welder back until they have a counter.  It completely changes their strategy when they see your exact strategy.  Part of R/G's strength is to be a surprise.  If you lose that surprise, you lose some strategy.  Also, the deck may run on on 1-2 lands, but what if you can't get those 2 lands because land grant got countered.  If they see you need a land, and they have a counter, they most likely will counter the grant to stall you for 1-2 turns or more.  Usually, its not a good situation.  For the 6+ months I've been playing the deck, I've only been screwed by a fetch under maze once, and that was my error for playing a basic first instead of the fetch, knowing full well that I was going to play a root maze.

Null rod is a meta call probably.  Heavy slaver might constitute null rod MD, or heavy combo.  Even heavy affinity, although I've found affinity a push over for this deck.

So whats your thoughts on Karplusan Forest?  Or maybe even splitting it:  2 Wooded Foothills and 2 Karplusan Forest?

[[supa_t(im)]]

So whats your thoughts on Karplusan Forest?  Or maybe even splitting it:  2 Wooded Foothills and 2 Karplusan Forest?

I think the deck needs 4 fetchlands for grim lavamancer purposes.  Also, you don't want to open yourself up to opposing wastelands more than you have to.

[Astro]

I think the deck needs 4 fetchlands for grim lavamancer purposes.

I have to disagree with you on that one.  Now it just sounds like your just disagreeing to be disagreeing.  Running 4 Fetchies for the sole purpose to fuel Grim Lavamancer but having to wait 3 turns to draw any mana out of it doesn't seem like a great pay off to me.  The "good" (feeding Lavamancer) really doesn't seem to out way the "bad" (waiting 3 turns to get mana).  And in any event between Lightning Bolt, Wild Mongrel, Naturalize, ect... there shouldn't be too many cases where a Wooded Foothills saved your ass.

Also, you don't want to open yourself up to opposing wastelands more than you have to.

Running Fechties under Root Maze puts you under the exact same Wasteland stress as running K. Forests because your Fetchies come into play tapped and are just as easily Wasted. 

I think think a 50/50 split:  2 Karplusan Forest and 2 Wooded Foothills might need to be looked into.

[Tobi]

I thought about running Karplusan Forest because of Sundering Titan. With Root Maze it makes even more sense.

However, being able to fetch basic lands has always been a big plus. It may be a metagame call.

[Astro]

I thought about running Karplusan Forest because of Thundering Titans. With Root Maze it makes even more sense.

However, being able to fetch basic lands has always been a big plus. It may be a metagame call.

Thundering Titans?  Is that a card?  I couldn't find it.