R/G beats discussion

[Tobi]

Oops, I mean Sundering Titan... 
Corrected.

[r0z0rz]

Hi,

I was toying around a little with some decklists, when I thought about something old, that might even work: Metagamed Sligh.

The concept was fairly simple: dropping small beaters and alot of bombs, like Null Rod, Blood Moon and eventually, Price of Progress.

The original Decklist was something like this:

3 [card]Bloodstained Mire[/card]
3 [card]Wooded Foothills[/card]
1 [card]Strip Mine[/card]
4 [card]Wasteland[/card]
8 [card]Mountain[/card]
1 [card]Mox Ruby[/card]
1 [card]Black Lotus[/card]

4 [card]Jackal Pup[/card]
4 [card]Mogg Fanatic[/card]
4 [card]Goblin Vandal[/card]
4 [card]Grim Lavamancer[/card]

4 [card]Lightning Bolt[/card]
4 [card]Price of Progress[/card]
4 [card]Chain Lightning[/card]
3 [card]Fireblast[/card]

4 [card]Null Rod[/card]
3 [card]Blood Moon[/card]
1 [card]Black Vise[/card]

We decided that with 21 manasources, we had to run things like Gorilla Shaman and ReB, so we changed the following:

-4 Grim Lavamancer, -1 Black Vise, +3 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Gorilla Shaman

This list actually worked better, the grims simply were not needed against most powered / Control decks, so we moved them to the SB and replaced them with more good cards.

Then we were looking at R/G Beats, and we thought about how the Root Maze would work.

After the testings, we found it very strong. It was a complete hoser against Dragon, because they can't win if you have one in play, and it worked very well on the fetchlands (yes, it also hates your own Fetch).
And with green in the deck, we could also replace the Pups with [card]Wild Mongrel[/card], and put some random [card]Naturalize[/card]'s maindeck, to beat a deadly chalice for 1 (which is one of the biggest problems that the deck has).

The list now looks something like this:

Metagame Sligh - We refuse to call it R/G beatz!
2 [card]Bloodstained Mire[/card]
4 [card]Wooded Foothills[/card]
1 [card]Strip Mine[/card]
4 [card]Wasteland[/card]
4 [card]Mountain[/card]
3 [card]Taiga[/card]
1 [card]Forest[/card]
1 [card]Mox Ruby[/card]
1 [card]Black Lotus[/card]

4 [card]Wild Mongrel[/card]
4 [card]Mogg Fanatic[/card]
3 [card]Goblin Vandal[/card]
2 [card]Gorilla Shaman[/card]

4 [card]Lightning Bolt[/card]
4 [card]Price of Progress[/card]
3 [card]Chain Lightning[/card]
2 [card]Naturalize[/card]

4 [card]Null Rod[/card]
4 [card]Root Maze[/card]
3 [card]Blood Moon[/card]
2 [card]Red Elemental Blast[/card]

We haven't really payed attention to the SB yet, but I guess there will be 2 more Naturalize (Damn Chalice), Pyrostatic Pillar (Combo Hoser), Grim Lavamancer (Aggro/Welders), Ground Seals and some more crap in it.

What should we do? Run more Monkeys, although the synergy with Null Rod isn't that great? Play different critz? Replace some weak cards (and which? ) by better cards? And, finally, is the Mono R version better then R/G?

Please try the decklist once; I'll bet you like it.


--
R0x0rz


Merged into the appropriate thread.
-Jacob

[[supa_t(im)]]

@Astro
You only seem to be looking at the situations where root maze hits the board.  I will say that this happens enough (root maze coming into play) but you aren't gonna be poping open a fetch under maze that often.

You get a fetchland opening hand you are probably gonna fetch a basic.  That is how it protects against wastelands.  And they don't just fuel lavamancer, that was just an example I gave.  They fetch land to solve mana problems, they feed lavamancer, they can fetch basics to nullify wasteland, they thin your deck out, and they can even provide mongrel food if necessary (so can any land, but these still fit the bill).

I'm not against the inclusion of Karplusan Forests, but I won't take out fetchlands, since they have proved their weight in gold in the past.  Are you really having that much trouble with fetchlands, or are you speaking theoretically?

[Astro]

@Astro
Are you really having that much trouble with fetchlands, or are you speaking theoretically?

Your the winner.  I'm the loser.  You win.  I don't.

[[supa_t(im)]]

@Astro
Are you really having that much trouble with fetchlands, or are you speaking theoretically?

Your the winner.  I'm the loser.  You win.  I don't.

I hope I didn't come off as condescending, because I wasn't trying to be.  I really want to know if people have been having trouble with fetches.

The more I think about it, the more I like 2 karplusan forest in the manabase.  Life has become so ignored in vintage anyway, since most decks kill you in one turn or ignore your life completely.  I think it will help in manafixing, basically becoming taiga 3 and 4.  Wasteable, but not titanable.

Metagame Sligh - We refuse to call it R/G beatz!
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
3 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Goblin Vandal
2 Gorilla Shaman

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Chain Lightning
2 Naturalize

4 Null Rod
4 Root Maze
3 Blood Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast

I refuse to call it R/G Beatz as well, since the deck is very different from beatz.

6 fetchlands and root maze is asking to have trouble.  The only reason I advocate fetches in the deck is because it only uses 4, and can reliably get 2-3 mana with only 4.

Why mogg fanatic over, say, river boa.  Boa beats for more and is usually unblockable.  Besides, with so much burn, what are you worried about killing with the mogg.  If anything, run grim lavamancer in his spot, as lavamancer is better at the direct damage game than mogg fanatic.

Blood moon and PoP aren't as effective as they once were.  Blood moon is ineffective because people are still using a ton of basics, and wastelands plus root maze, null rod, and gorilla shaman should be enough to put mana pressure on them.  PoP doesn't do as much damage as it once did because of the high use of basics.  When people get used to no trinisphere, I think we will see less basics.  Also, root maze, gorilla shaman, and null rod seem redundant.  I usually find that root maze and shaman work unless I am playing against a lot of combo (which is why rods stay in the board).

Your build seems more designed to compete with aggro, while the one posted at the begining of the thread is more designed to deal with control (which is now really control combo), aggro control, and still have a chance against combo.  Maybe try rancor, as its good against anything.

[Astro]

I hope I didn't come off as condescending, because I wasn't trying to be.  I really want to know if people have been having trouble with fetches.

No prob.  I have been testing it a bit, splitting Karplusan Forest and Wooded Foothills 50/50 is such a minute change that I haven't really noticed a difference as of yet.

Um, concerning Crucible of Worlds and "poor synergy" vs. "good synergy lock," they definately have "good lock synergy."  This I have also been testing.  Saying Crucible has poor synergy with Root Maze is more like saying Wasteland has poor synergy with Root Maze as it shouldn't have anything to do with CoW.  Suppose you have a CoW, Root Maze, and an untapped Wasteland/Strip Mine in play and haven't dropped a land yet this turn.  You can effectively strip a land with Waste/Strip then replay it tapped.  You then say go and your opponent plays another land tapped, when it becomes your turn again you untap Waste/Strip and strip thier tapped land then replay it and so on.   This really has nothing to do with CoW.  CoW just lets you repeatedly play your Wastes.  I'm not saying its CoW is needed in the deck, however I am saying it might be something worth testing. 

There is a guy here in Portland that swears by it, he also runs Orcish Lumberjack for mana accel and Crucible synergies since you can replay your sacked forests.  Also there is nice synergy with Root Maze and Lumberjack as even when you replay your tapped forest you can immediatley sack it for 3 mana. 

Anyway, enough with Lumberjack, my point is that CoW we already know is nasty with Waste/Strip effects and it has some even nastier synergy with a Root Maze on the table which we're running 4 of anyway.  My only gripe is the 3cc doesn't really fit into the tempo of the deck.  Might need some checking into though as it could be a mid to late game bomb.

EDIT:  Spelling and Grammar

[doomhed]

I have been testing it a bit, splitting Karplusan Forest and Wooded Foothills 50/50 is such a minute change that I haven't really noticed a difference as of yet.

Um, concerning Crucible of Worlds and "poor synergy" vs. "good synergy lock," they definately have "good lock synergy."  This I have also been testing.  Saying Crucible has poor synergy with Root Maze is more like saying Wasteland has poor synergy with Root Maze as it shouldn't have anything to do with CoW.  Suppose you have a CoW, Root Maze, and an untapped Wasteland/Strip Mine in play and haven't dropped a land yet this turn.  You can effectively strip a land with Waste/Strip then replay it tapped.  You then say go and your opponent plays another land tapped, when it becomes your turn again you untap Waste/Strip and strip thier tapped land then replay it and so on.   This really has nothing to do with CoW.  CoW just lets you repeatedly play your Wastes.  I'm not saying its CoW is needed in the deck, however I am saying it might be something worth testing. 

There is a guy here in Portland (!) that swears by it, he also runs Orcish Lumberjack for mana accel and Crucible synergies since you can replay your sacked forests.  Also there is nice synergy with Root Maze and Lumberjack as even when you replay your tapped forest you can immediatley sack it for 3 mana.  
Anyway, enough with Lumberjack, my point is that CoW we already know is nasty with Waste/Strip effects and it has some even nastier synergy with a Root Maze on the table which we're running 4 of anyway.  My only gripe is the 3cc doesn't really fit into the tempo of the deck.  Might need some checking into though as it could be a mid to late game bomb.

if you are looking into cramming crucible into a deck with nothing casting more than 2, then you have some issues. Also, you are in PORTLAND OREGON. this is not the known center of T1 activity......oh wait...where is that......
<<------points to location line
NEW ENGLAND!
HAZZAH!

OK time to school you all with the best deck no one is gonna play @ waterbury

R/G beatz

4x Wooded Foothills
3x Tiaga
5x strips
3x mountain
2x Forest
4x ESG
1x Ruby (mountain)
1x Emerald (forest)

4x River boa
4x Blurred mongoose
2x Naturalise/hidden gibbons
2x hidden gibbons/naturalise
3x null rod
3x hearth kami/gorilla shamen
4x lightning bolt
4x incinerate
4x grim lavamancer
4x Kird ape

Sideboard-
4x Rootmaze

now here is the easiest explanation-

you maindeck root maze, you lose to all aggro/control decks. they will just stop your best critters and kick yer ass. it is not worth the extreme tempo loss for the slight advantage. good deathlong and TPS players will deal with it before killing you dead, and mopst CS plyers won't let this resolve.
notes on K forest and Lotus.

Even in a fully proxied metagame I do  not like this card in beatz. it can be welded in, replacing yer null rod. that is the whole reason we don't run it. it is good enough for me.
K. forest is great against titan, but seeing as how like 75% of slavery player have axed this card, and that you kill 5/3 already. 

[Rico Suave]

Don't you play no less than 12 ways to remove Goblin Welder maindeck? 

This leaves me a little perplexed as to why you would choose to play a deck that purposely lacks one of the most broken cards of all time, despite the fact that the card fits perfectly into the deck.  Seriously, for every game they weld out a Null Rod, Black Lotus will win you 5 games. 

[[supa_t(im)]]

@doomhed
Root maze doesn't slow our tempo as much as its slows our opponents tempo.  This is because we run cheap efficient beaters and ESG.  When the deck can run on 2 mana, maze doesn't hurt so much.  When you can play things under maze with ESG it gives you a significant tempo boost.  Also root maze is superior to null rod against combo because they run less ways to remove an enchantment than an artifact.  Against aggro it doesn't really help, but what aggro decks are out there?  FCG?  we have other ways of dealing with them.  Against control the card is golden.  It slows then down because all they mana cipt which stops drain for at least 2 turns.  Against aggro-control the same is true, and the deck usually runs a higher threat density therefore it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Null rod is in the side because its good against combo.  I don't think I would side in rod against slavery.  This is because we have at least 10 ways to kill welder MD, and then pillar and artifact mutation can come in after boarding.  Also with gorilla shaman sometimes the welder has not so much food.  The deck was designed to be able to do really well against welder based decks, so why are we worrying about welder?  I agree with Rico Suave.

[Ufactor]

2x Naturalise/hidden gibbons
2x hidden gibbons/naturalise

Why is gibbons>herd?  As a contorl player, herd brings more ph34r.  There are so many game winners that are non-instants (i.e., tog, oath, welder, decree, balance, will).  Except for Doomsday and Sensei, however, no deck plays more than 2-3 basics.  Delta or Orchard happen every game, so Herd becomes much harder to play around.

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

I have no doubt that Root Maze is a must for the Maindeck. It's nery powerfull vs many decks R/G whould have no chance against otherwise. And like Tim said, because of our low manacosts it's not so bad for your self.

Hidden Gibbons seems to be an option for a creature slot. But are they not to conditionell ? Every T1 deck plays instants, yes. But are they going to play it in a timeframe when the gibbons can trigger and are usefull for us ? I don't know. If i have to wait 3 turns to get the gibbons trigger and nothing else to bring pressure on the board it's bad. But maybe it works, i must admit that i have not tested gibbons in the deck.
Same for the hidden herd but it's less conditionell. On the other side it's smaller.

[Vegeta2711]

If i have to wait 3 turns to get the gibbons trigger and nothing else to bring pressure on the board it's bad.

You have to weigh that against playing a normal threat though. Almost anything you play is only going to deal the same 4 damage over those turns that Gibbons will deal in a single turn (Or two if it was a long time) of attacking. Gibbons is simply amazing in many matches because of the size of the body your getting. Of course they are dead in some matches, so meh.

Has anyone come to a consensus to the optimal creature base yet? I'd really like to hear it and how it deals with the laughably slow clock the deck has normally.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Root Maze IS really good...  As is a CoW-Wasteland lock...  As is Planar Void against any deck intending to cast YawgWin, and against combo Oath, and against anything with Welders...

So...Why not splash black?

Mana:

4 Bayou
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 ESG
4 Orcish Lumberjack

Disruption:

3 Null Rod
4 Root Maze
4 Planar Void
3 CoW
4 CotV (Mostly for 0 and 2, 2 almost solely against Oath)
3 Naturalize

Threats:
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Flesh Reaver
2 CotH
4 River Boa

I'm sure there's room for improvement...but Planar Void is a force to be reckoned with.

[Astro]

@Negator
The nice thing about Gibbons is that even if you do have to wait three turns or even if they never trigger this can also be a good thing as you have successfully dropped a big enough threat basically acting as a meddling mage effectively preventing them from countering your spells.  Gibbons are a monster against control.  I'd run 4 in the sb.

@AmbivalentDuck
I don't think black is necessary as the deck already has every tool in needs and does this already without wrecking its mana base.  Also, you have to notice the poor synergy with CoW and Planar Void.  Also, I agree with what Tim said earier that Null Rod isn't necessary as you already provide yourself with a mini anti moxen lock with Gorilla Shaman and Root Maze.

@Everybody Else
What are the rest of your thoughts on running 2 or so CoW's main deck?  The way I see it there is no reason not to.  We are already running 5 Strips.  That should almost be good enough.  Then there's the icing on the cake that we just so happen to also be running 4 Root Maze which provides a lock.  The drawback is the 3cc, however this shouldn't be a problem mid game as getting 3 mana at this point should be a cinch especially considering that Root Maze has slowed the pace enough for you to stablize your mana base.  CoW mid to late game is when this deck starts to fizzle anyway due to its lack of draw.

[AmbivalentDuck]

@AmbivalentDuck
I don't think black is necessary as the deck already has every tool in needs and does this already without wrecking its mana base.  Also, you have to notice the poor synergy with CoW and Planar Void.  Also, I agree with what Tim said earier that Null Rod isn't necessary as you already provide yourself with a mini anti moxen lock with Gorilla Shaman and Root Maze.

Note the synergy of having a Null Rod in play WITH the CoW-Waste-lock.  (Which only INCREASES with Root Maze)

Second, clearly it does NOT have every tool it needs.  I don't see consistent top 8 placings.  It has been a tier II deck.  Planar Void allows a turn 1 threat that most combo decks HAVE TO ANSWER or they can't go off.  Now, the CotV might be redundant with Null Rod... if it is, I don't know which I'd actually cut but I'm leaning toward the Null Rod.  In either case, the hardest matchup for this deck is always going to be combo/combo-control.  Planar Void takes care of that.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Note the synergy of having a Null Rod in play WITH the CoW-Waste-lock.  (Which only INCREASES with Root Maze)

Second, clearly it does NOT have every tool it needs.  I don't see consistent top 8 placings.  It has been a tier II deck.  Planar Void allows a turn 1 threat that most combo decks HAVE TO ANSWER or they can't go off.  Now, the CotV might be redundant with Null Rod... if it is, I don't know which I'd actually cut but I'm leaning toward the Null Rod.  In either case, the hardest matchup for this deck is always going to be combo/combo-control.  Planar Void takes care of that.

Note also the poor synergy between Grim Lavamancer and planar void. We don't want to be nullifiying our anti-welder cards do we?

The deck doesn't top 8 because nobody plays it.  Its a good deck, but if you had full power, would you play it?  Probably not.  Therefore, we get budget players playing the deck that don't have much experience, and therefore don't do very well.

I'm not sure about CoW MD.  It doesn't have great synergy with root maze at times, and has a high-ish mana cost.  I'm not really seeing it help too much.

Has anyone come to a consensus to the optimal creature base yet? I'd really like to hear it and how it deals with the laughably slow clock the deck has normally.

I'm not sure we ever came to a consensus, but the creature base I've found the most optimal is:

4 River Boa
4 Kird Ape
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Wild Mongrel

With rancor and mongrel + lavamancer food the deck can win on turn 4 undisrupted, which is traditionally the turn aggro won on (one turn behind combo).  Its definitely not the fastest, but it does pack potent disruption, which helps slow other decks to its level.

[doomhed]

@AmbivalentDuck
I don't think black is necessary as the deck already has every tool in needs and does this already without wrecking its mana base.  Also, you have to notice the poor synergy with CoW and Planar Void.  Also, I agree with what Tim said earier that Null Rod isn't necessary as you already provide yourself with a mini anti moxen lock with Gorilla Shaman and Root Maze.

Note the synergy of having a Null Rod in play WITH the CoW-Waste-lock.  (Which only INCREASES with Root Maze)

Second, clearly it does NOT have every tool it needs.  I don't see consistent top 8 placings.  It has been a tier II deck.  Planar Void allows a turn 1 threat that most combo decks HAVE TO ANSWER or they can't go off.  Now, the CotV might be redundant with Null Rod... if it is, I don't know which I'd actually cut but I'm leaning toward the Null Rod.  In either case, the hardest matchup for this deck is always going to be combo/combo-control.  Planar Void takes care of that.

OK, we are not going to improve the deck by adding an enchantment that neither A- stops thier gameplan entirely (they can weld in response to the trigger), or B- Damages our best answer to thier biggest threat. Also, with COW, you haved horrible synergy with Void! Also, in a deck where everything costs 2 or less, what do we call a 3 casting cost card? A DRAIN TARGET!they will drain it. you won't be playing this until turn 4ish. by then they should have a drain online to kick yer ass. Also, how exactly does Planar Void kill Belcher? Belcher is one of the better decks right now. I would MUCH rather get the turn 1 null rod with this deck. null rod stops slaver dead. that is of couse unless you give them a target to  weld out. oh, and Rico, unlike you must be doing, the rest of us can only run 1 lotus. it does not win as many games as you might think, and the ability to get the first turn null rod without later on topdecking a card that is utterly useless late game in an aggro deck. I would rather topdeck an ESG late game then the lotus. I will stand by it. Fish dominated solely on the back of NOT running lotus. this we have learned as the only lesson fish has taught us. or maybe not everyone leanred this lesson?

[Freelancer]

@AmbivalentDuck
I don't think black is necessary as the deck already has every tool in needs and does this already without wrecking its mana base.  Also, you have to notice the poor synergy with CoW and Planar Void.  Also, I agree with what Tim said earier that Null Rod isn't necessary as you already provide yourself with a mini anti moxen lock with Gorilla Shaman and Root Maze.

Note the synergy of having a Null Rod in play WITH the CoW-Waste-lock.  (Which only INCREASES with Root Maze)

Second, clearly it does NOT have every tool it needs.  I don't see consistent top 8 placings.  It has been a tier II deck.  Planar Void allows a turn 1 threat that most combo decks HAVE TO ANSWER or they can't go off.  Now, the CotV might be redundant with Null Rod... if it is, I don't know which I'd actually cut but I'm leaning toward the Null Rod.  In either case, the hardest matchup for this deck is always going to be combo/combo-control.  Planar Void takes care of that.

OK, we are not going to improve the deck by adding an enchantment that neither A- stops thier gameplan entirely (they can weld in response to the trigger), or B- Damages our best answer to thier biggest threat. Also, with COW, you haved horrible synergy with Void! Also, in a deck where everything costs 2 or less, what do we call a 3 casting cost card? A DRAIN TARGET!they will drain it. you won't be playing this until turn 4ish. by then they should have a drain online to kick yer ass. Also, how exactly does Planar Void kill Belcher? Belcher is one of the better decks right now. I would MUCH rather get the turn 1 null rod with this deck. null rod stops slaver dead. that is of couse unless you give them a target to  weld out. oh, and Rico, unlike you must be doing, the rest of us can only run 1 lotus. it does not win as many games as you might think, and the ability to get the first turn null rod without later on topdecking a card that is utterly useless late game in an aggro deck. I would rather topdeck an ESG late game then the lotus. I will stand by it. Fish dominated solely on the back of NOT running lotus. this we have learned as the only lesson fish has taught us. or maybe not everyone leanred this lesson?

Actually fish players have  been starting to run lotus more and more. It provides undeniable acceleration in the early game, and can often swing games in your direction. Imagine a first turn rootmaze+boa+rancor or similar craziness (this is just a example, I can give many more insane first turns), it is truly game breaking. Besides most RG beatz decks run 8+ (!) ways off dealing with welder, on top off a armada off weenies and rootmaze. Why are you afraid off a welder welding out your null rod? If a welder gets active you are already in a weak position.

I actually played lots off games against control slaver with fish, often when my opponent could weld out the null rod he could've also tinkered for the win. Or did some other craziness, in other words the game was already lost at this point. Null rod is powerfull against control slaver, but they can deal with it when they have been drawing huge amounts off cards. With or without a lotus in your graveyard.



As an aside; The chance off drawing a lotus in your opening 7 is about 10%, so once in ever 10 games lotus will accelerate your early game by 3 (!) turns. If your hand is halfway decent you will have a huge advantage in these games. I think the chance that a welder gets active against you is much lower than the 8% chance off craziness you get from lotus (lowered the percentage slightly to accommodate the unplayable lotus-useless cards hands). You have against welder; 8+ removal spells, and 4x gorilla shaman he has; 4x welder and 8x counterspells to protect it. This cancells eachother out and this isn't even taking in account that you ALSO need to draw a null rod and a lotus and that the opponent does nothing to deal with your other threads, it also doesn't take into account the draw slaver runs though. This means that most off the time a CS player either; needs to keep back welders to protect them or spend all off its counters on protecting the welder. Not to mention if a grim lavamancer slips past a counterwall it means that all future welders are toast unless the CS player deals with the lavamancer.

[doomhed]

about 99% of CS players are running MD Trike. trikes kill my mancers way too often for me to be happy about it. 
Right now, in a large tournament setting, you will not win with R/G beatz. the deck is uderpowered and a majority of its "experts" have very little experience in magic, let alone type 1. I have been playing for a long time, and have copious amounts of playtesting experience and real tourney data to back this up. Good fish players did not run lotus. this deck also cannot. null rod is way too key of a card. all slaver has to do is play a will, which you have no way of stopping, into a welder (or 2) and a time walk. GAME OVER MAN!!!!!1!!ONE!
All kidding aside, you will only beat bad CS players. mind you, there alot of idiots who think so highly of themself as players that they just netdeck slaver and try to play it without any real heavy play experience. 
either way guys, get some more TOURNAMENT experience. run a gauntlet, ETC. this poor negator fellow actually plays this in REAL tournies. this is his real deck. this is not talking theoreticals. if he goes to a tourney and does not win, would it be his fault? not really. most of you have probably never sat down in playtesting against a Good CS player. the things you guys keep preaching are failed exercises in futility.

[Astro]

I'm not sure about CoW MD.  It doesn't have great synergy with root maze at times, and has a high-ish mana cost.  I'm not really seeing it help too much.

What you mean is Strips don't always have great synergy Root Maze.  CoW doesn't have bad synergy with anything, it just lets your repeatedly play your Strips.  I'm not 100% on it either however I thought it was worth a mention and worth testing. 

I think your creature base is pretty solid.  I especially like the 4th Shaman main.  However the build that Negator has posted I question two things:  the mana base feels a bit light and the possibility of opening up three slots in the Chain Lightning department.  I'd like to see an additional mana producing land.  I also feel that 11 creature removal slots is to much, which leaves the three Chain Lightning slots open.  It seems this slot we can be creative with and test some shit.  I'd almost rather see CoW, Skullclamp, Winter Orb, Stormbind, Hidden Gibbons, Troll Ascetic, Hull Breach, ect....

[M]

About the possibility of a root maze lock with crucible. Couldn't the same kind of lock be achieved with Dwarven Miner? It's only two mana and is a creature making it more of a fit for the deck, and this is a two card combo (opposed to root maze + crucible + wasteland).

Also, should this deck use Umezawa's Jitte (in the versions without Null Rod)?

[Ufactor]

R/G beatz

4x Wooded Foothills
3x Tiaga
5x strips
3x mountain
2x Forest
4x ESG
1x Ruby (mountain)
1x Emerald (forest)

4x River boa
4x Blurred mongoose
2x Naturalise/hidden gibbons
2x hidden gibbons/naturalise
3x null rod
3x hearth kami/gorilla shamen
4x lightning bolt
4x incinerate
4x grim lavamancer
4x Kird ape

Sideboard-
4x Rootmaze

@ doomhead - Thanks for your input.  It sounds like you've been around the block against CS.  But, this list is missing three cards.  What would you recommend?  Rancor?

Also, how about this for a sideboard:

2 Artifact Mutation
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Ground Seal
2 Naturalize
4 Root Maze

[[supa_t(im)]]

about 99% of CS players are running MD Trike. trikes kill my mancers way too often for me to be happy about it. 
Right now, in a large tournament setting, you will not win with R/G beatz. the deck is uderpowered and a majority of its "experts" have very little experience in magic, let alone type 1. I have been playing for a long time, and have copious amounts of playtesting experience and real tourney data to back this up. Good fish players did not run lotus. this deck also cannot. null rod is way too key of a card. all slaver has to do is play a will, which you have no way of stopping, into a welder (or 2) and a time walk. GAME OVER MAN!!!!!1!!ONE!
All kidding aside, you will only beat bad CS players. mind you, there alot of idiots who think so highly of themself as players that they just netdeck slaver and try to play it without any real heavy play experience. 
either way guys, get some more TOURNAMENT experience. run a gauntlet, ETC. this poor negator fellow actually plays this in REAL tournies. this is his real deck. this is not talking theoreticals. if he goes to a tourney and does not win, would it be his fault? not really. most of you have probably never sat down in playtesting against a Good CS player. the things you guys keep preaching are failed exercises in futility.

Well, this is my real deck as well.  It has been for more than a year (yes, before the original topic on TMD).  You're right, I may not have as much tourney experience that you may like, but I have played the deck against CS, Oath, TPS, Hulk, Fish, and some others.  I placed 2nd in a tournament with the deck, where I beat Dragon and Hulk (although I lost to another Hulk deck).  Its a possibility that those players were just bad, but I'm sure not all of them were.  I don't post these results because there weren't that many people (probably around 15-20), and it was slightly scrubby, so my results wouldn't be taken that seriously.  I agree with you that R/G is usually piloted by inexperienced players, and that is why it doesn't make a showing.

As for trike killing lavamancers.  I haven't had trouble with it often.  I pack naturalize pre-board which helps if they do manage to get a fatty into play.  Its fairly easy to bait counters with maze/boa/rancor/monkey and get an active lavamancer on the board before they get welder.  Most bad R/G players can't even play against bad CS players.  But ask xrobx, he finished 5-3 at the last Waterbury with this deck, and one match he let his friend win.  He will tell you that you have to know the deck to play the deck, and a lot of people don't know the deck.

The deck needs lotus.  Even with null rod MD.  How often are you gonna have lotus in the gy with rod on the board and them with an active welder.  And the deck packs instant speed burn.  Many times welding a lotus back in will actually help you win, not let you lose.  A CS player will not weld a lotus back in unless they are ready to win, but by that time the deck should have gotten enough beats in for it not to matter.

I don't even know why we are discussing the CS match, its like our best.

@Astro
Yeah, that is what I meant, about strips + maze usually isn't great.  But I'm still worried about mana drain.  We tried to make the deck as mana drain proof as possible, and a fat 3cc spell isn't so great.

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Well...i don't want to say that my list is "the R/G beatz" deck. There are many differnet options people can choose like gibbons or not for example. Nethertheless i played 5-2 two times with this deck in turnaments with ~110 people and i whould say this is not bad. There are some "basics" we should keep in mind. I'm sorry to say but some of the suggestions made here are really not very helpfull for this deck:

1. The black splash:
- We are giving away our solid manabase.
- Planar Void + Grim Lavamancer + CoW is not very synergetic...
- Apart from Vampiric/Demonic/Consultation Tutors we don't get anything we might need.

2. Goblin Welder:
- We have to assume welders are not going to stay alive long enough to get active. If we are not able to stop welders we have a very bad situation anyway. No matter with or without Lotus in graveyard and Null Rod in play. It's one of the decks best points that we have so many ways to get rid of the welder. It's a keypoint. This is followed by 3.

3. Lotus:
- If you can play it! If you don't play Null Rod this should be no question. If you play it MD i whould still play the Lotus if i had one (deer ebay seller, i'm still waiting for it...). The risk of Rod + Lotus or active welder + Lotus in grave + Rod in play are very small if point 2. is right. The benefits on the other side if we draw the lotus in other situations are are bigger ones.

4. Crucible of Worlds
- 3cc is very much for this deck.
- Other good decks that play CoW have much more synergy effects with it than we have. No tinker, no tutor, no manlands, no need of much mana. If we play it we lose 1 turn because we can play nothing else during this turn. And what do we get ? If we have a wasteland/strip it's very good but if not we gain nearly nothing. We are in no need of recycling our fetchs to get more mana or something like that.
If we want something like CoW in this deck we should take Drawen Miner or Drawen Blastminer but not CoW.


I have the feeling this discussion might drift away because of some very weird suggestions.

[Freelancer]

about 99% of CS players are running MD Trike. trikes kill my mancers way too often for me to be happy about it. 
Right now, in a large tournament setting, you will not win with R/G beatz. the deck is uderpowered and a majority of its "experts" have very little experience in magic, let alone type 1. I have been playing for a long time, and have copious amounts of playtesting experience and real tourney data to back this up. Good fish players did not run lotus. this deck also cannot. null rod is way too key of a card. all slaver has to do is play a will, which you have no way of stopping, into a welder (or 2) and a time walk. GAME OVER MAN!!!!!1!!ONE!
All kidding aside, you will only beat bad CS players. mind you, there alot of idiots who think so highly of themself as players that they just netdeck slaver and try to play it without any real heavy play experience. 
either way guys, get some more TOURNAMENT experience. run a gauntlet, ETC. this poor negator fellow actually plays this in REAL tournies. this is his real deck. this is not talking theoreticals. if he goes to a tourney and does not win, would it be his fault? not really. most of you have probably never sat down in playtesting against a Good CS player. the things you guys keep preaching are failed exercises in futility.

You are assuming way to many things in this post. For instance you assume that everyone we play against are bad CS players, what the hell are you thinking? You have no idea who my opponents are or with who I test, you have no idea if I am a competent fish player or not. If my testing results are radically different than everyone else in this thread than okay my playtesting partners might not have been good enough or my experience with this deck isn't great enough, but to assume that beforehand is insulting.

Also trike rarely shoots down a lavamancer, since if you have a active lavamancer it means that the opponent cannot keep any welders on the board so the CS player either needs to tinker it into play or hardcast it. If your opponent manages to hardcast a trike that usually means that either you have almost won and a trike hardly matters, or you've already lost because the opponent has enough mana to cast it and could've also casted other big threats or a bunch off draw followed up by a threat (mana denial and pressure are two important assets off your offense). And a early tinker is often enough on its own to win the game anyway against RG beats (if the CS player has anything to follow it up). Besides, people still play mana drain even though it can't counter (realistically) turn 1 this hardly makes it bad. Lavamancer has a similar impact in the CS matchup in that although it can be answered it doesn't make its bad, because its impact is sufficiently powerfull here that it has to be answered.

You oversimplify the CS matchup way to much, CS can't ignore root maze it can't ignore burn it can't ignore a mox monkey and it has trouble against fast aggro decks since they are often hardly affected by a slaver activation. So how is this a bad matchup in any way?

A lot off good players have recently advocated the use off black lotus in fish, have a open mind to new things. I tested it (a lot, and against good players) and only twice has a null rod been welded out, and both off these games I would've lost anyway even if they weren't capable off welding it out. Bring some real arguments to the table besides the 'OH MY GOD NULL ROD GETS WELDED OUT' since I already answered (twice) why this rarely matter or happens. Not to mention that this usually only matters in the CS match, if you are so afraid off CS side the lotus out games 2/3 against CS its still way to good against other decks not to play maindeck.

I have to agree with you that little experienced players actually play with RG beatz, and this is also is the reason it rarely top 8'ed. Its also underpowered (as you said).


Ps. Read this article; http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9521.html since you only told me I'm wrong without giving much reason why I am wrong. (I told you why welding null rod out hardly matters or happens, tell me why I am wrong)

Pss. I just read negators post he sums up the arguments better than I can to why lotus is good in RG beatz, so enlighten us why are we wrong?

[Nastaboi]

about 99% of CS players are running MD Trike. trikes kill my mancers way too often for me to be happy about it. 
Right now, in a large tournament setting, you will not win with R/G beatz. the deck is uderpowered and a majority of its "experts" have very little experience in magic, let alone type 1. I have been playing for a long time, and have copious amounts of playtesting experience and real tourney data to back this up. Good fish players did not run lotus. this deck also cannot. null rod is way too key of a card. all slaver has to do is play a will, which you have no way of stopping, into a welder (or 2) and a time walk. GAME OVER MAN!!!!!1!!ONE!
All kidding aside, you will only beat bad CS players. mind you, there alot of idiots who think so highly of themself as players that they just netdeck slaver and try to play it without any real heavy play experience. 
either way guys, get some more TOURNAMENT experience. run a gauntlet, ETC. this poor negator fellow actually plays this in REAL tournies. this is his real deck. this is not talking theoreticals. if he goes to a tourney and does not win, would it be his fault? not really. most of you have probably never sat down in playtesting against a Good CS player. the things you guys keep preaching are failed exercises in futility.

All CS players run Trike MD, but some of them also maindeck Lava Dart. IMO that is the card that says whether your mancers are in play or in the grave, and who will take home game one.

I have a good amount of tournament experience with fish, and am nowadays on the pro-Lotus side. However, this is not a Null Rod deck. This is a Root Maze deck, and should be treated as such. The way you have been playing the deck is as a Null Rod deck, which is fine. However, the rest of the people posting here are playing as a Root Maze deck, which is a whole different look of the deck. So we are talking about different tweaks of the deck, and right now most people (including me) see the Root Maze version much more powerful than Null Rod version. It's not just the cards, it's the philosophy behind.

Also, you won't win the crowd with the comments like "your metagame sucks".

A random comment on RG vs. Dragon matchup: if you can get a Root Maze down, they can still make it draw. Some BG versions also run Caller of the Claw, which allows them to go off under Root Maze. And that's my claimed tournament experience... (Okay, NOW you can rightfully say that my metagame sucks.) Just something to be aware of.

[andrewpate]

A random comment on RG vs. Dragon matchup: if you can get a Root Maze down, they can still make it draw. Some BG versions also run Caller of the Claw, which allows them to go off under Root Maze. And that's my claimed tournament experience... (Okay, NOW you can rightfully say that my metagame sucks.) Just something to be aware of.

Actually, one of the most common ways to face Dragon combo now is in the form of CA, and that will usually kill with the Root Maze-proof Triskelion combo.  Root Maze is only truly crippling for oldschool Dragon players with only Ambassador Laquatus and Cunning Wish for Stroke of Genius as kill conditions.  Most versions now pack the ability to Wish for enchantment removal, not to mention kills that don't need infinite mana.

Of course, preventing their infinite mana is certainly good.  But it is just a stall tactic like Root Maze is against anything else.  You must keep the pressure up in this matchup.  Playtest it a few times and you'll see what I'm talking about very quickly (i.e., you are correct, Nastaboi).

@black
First off, I'm still not fully convinced that Planar Void is even better than Tormod's Crypt.  But even if it is, the negergy with Crucible of Worlds and Grim Lavamancer combine with the fact that the entire point of the deck is stable mana with lots of basics and leave me highly sceptical.  And by highly sceptical I mean totally certain that you're wrong.  The black splash is terrible and would require something a hell of a lot more broken than Planar Void to justify.

@Black Lotus
Not running Lotus is just a fox-and-the-sour-grapes argument on the part of people who don't have one.  The off chance that Null Rod might get welded out is nothing compared to the possibility of a turn 1 Lotus, Wooded Foothills-->Mountain, Wild Mongrel, Grim Lavamancer, Root Maze.  Think about how powerful that is.  Now think about first turn Wild Mongrel and Null Rod with additional beats following right behind on the next turn, while the 5/3 player's 4-cost fat sits in his hand for a turn and your Grim Lavamancer gets time to get hot for the trade with a Juggernaut.  The fact that you are playing aggro-control doesn't mean you eschew the ability to do broken things, but rather the contrary:  you have to take what brokenness you can get.

@Ambivalent Duck
I'm sorry, but I just have to address this.  Fish dominated SOLELY on the basis of not running Black Lotus?  That comes as a major blow to my confidence as a Vintage player, seeing as how I had always been under the impression that Fish dominated on the basis of using light disruption to punish the reliance of decks like Tog on extreme mana efficiency.  And here I spent all this money on old rares when all along I could have bought a Type 2 precon and dominated on the basis of awesome no-Lotus power.  Honestly, think through this stuff before you post it.

[AmbivalentDuck]

@black
First off, I'm still not fully convinced that Planar Void is even better than Tormod's Crypt.  But even if it is, the negergy with Crucible of Worlds and Grim Lavamancer combine with the fact that the entire point of the deck is stable mana with lots of basics and leave me highly sceptical.  And by highly sceptical I mean totally certain that you're wrong.  The black splash is terrible and would require something a hell of a lot more broken than Planar Void to justify.

Such as?  A one mana answer to a variety of decks is quite strong.  Through I agree about the mana base being too much weaker for the addition.  The red isn't doing much: it can go.  Sub out Lumberjacks for Rituals...

Mana:

4 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 ESG
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus

Disruption:

3 Null Rod
4 Root Maze
4 Planar Void
3 CoW
4 CotV (Mostly for 0 and 2, 2 almost solely against Oath)
3 Naturalize
1 Demonic Consultation (because we can)

Threats:
3 ???? (Maybe...just maybe Viridian Zealot)
3 Flesh Reaver
2 CotH
4 River Boa 

And yes I realize that this would shift the deck into a different topic.  But, it's a possible direction.

As far as why to use Void over Tormod's...Well it can't be Stifled once and thereby be completely bypassed.  And it isn't vulnerable to artifact removal.  Null Rods can't be welded out because of it.  The next time they have a significant threat, you don't have to draw another one.  And perhaps the best thing about it is that many decks will have to remove it, but it will allow you to sand-bag your other bombs in the meanwhile, saving them from mass removal.  And since we now have Rituals, they could instead be Withered Wretch, thereby upping the threat count.

[Astro]

The black splash is just a different deck completely.  If you look at Fish it didn't branch out to other colors until the basic mono blue became staple.

Ok, I think its fair to say that the majority of us agree that on the the specifics such as the inclusion of Black Lotus, disclusion of Null Rod main, decided Crucible isn't necessary, and possible creature base.

So what should the creature base be?

2x Wild Mongrel
4x River Boa
4x Gorilla Shaman
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Kird Ape
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

How about lands and mana sources?  I found Negator's to be a bit light, I added a land.  Should we split Wooded Foothills 50/50 with Karplusan Forest?

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Taiga
4x Wooded Foothills  (-2 Foothills + 2 Karplusan Forest ?)
4x Mountain
4x Forest

This being done we've cut the 3 Chain Lightnings from Negators list and added a Mountain, a Lavamancer, and a Gorilla Shaman.  Is this the right direction the deck should move?

[[supa_t(im)]]

@Astro
My deck never swayed from that direction.  Although I didn't run mongrels until about a month ago my creature base looked the exact same as that (I used bounty in mongrel's place, but its just so sub par).

My mana base has always looked like this:

2 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

I think yours is a little heavy on mana.  I have been thinking about dropping one of each basic and adding 2 K. Forests.  This mana base with the ESG hasn't let me down.