R/G Beats... Time to rise?

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I just got done reading/ posting in Smenenens topic about Gencon where he went on about Slaver being huge right now, and ofcourse, that damn dirty Goblin Welder. Now that combo numbers seem to be dwindling, do we think that R/G Beats is viable? I personally do. It has the utility to handle the two top archtypes (CS/ Workshop related) and bigger beats than all fish builds except WTF... But who plays that?  :lol:

The utility that Beats offers can't be matched by near any deck in the field. Let's take a look (I'm basing this all off my old R/G deck that successfully won tournaments through the "problematic" decks):

Control Slaver:

Goblin Welders are a pain in the neck. Everyone knows this. Beats plays 8 burn spells- I played 4 Lightning Bolt and 4 Fire/ Ice- that (in theory) should hold them back. Just incase, there are also those amazing Grim Lavamancers that fit the build nicely. And ofcourse, what R/G deck would be complete without lovable Gorilla Shaman...
I also (playing through a field of Workshop) was sporting 4 Artifact Mutations main (Trinisphere ran wild, bear in mind... These days you can do Mutations or Naturalizes... Depending on your Meta). Not the best tool against Slaver- but easy takes care of fat that may hit the table.
The last little bit of hate (non SB) is Red Elemental Blast. I played 3 Main. Too much hate? Never. REB was amazing in that meta, and seems to be even moreso with so much more Mana Drain decks.

SB brought in either Ground Seal or Tormod's Crypt (depending on the build) and ofcourse, more REB (1 REB and 1 Pyro usually).

Workshop:

As mentioned before, Artifact Mutaions main are amazing against any Workshop build. The burn takes care of Welders, and Rack and Ruins come in later to play.

Uba Mask isn't that big of a deal with this deck. 99% of the things topdecked are playable. Cruicble/ Strip can be a problem, but let's face it, it always has been and always will be. Theoretically it should be pretty easy to keep the permanent count up facing a Smokestack until you can find an Artifact Mutation/ Naturalize/ etc, but then again... It can be a problem like anything else.


So there's a quick analysis of the deck I believe is ripe to return to power. PM me if you want my suggested decklist (I'm not sure if I can post it here... If it turns out I can, I will). May the Kirds rule once more!   

[prosbloom225]

R/g Beats is great in the current stax heavy meta, but at gencon without proxies many of the matches will be budget decks.   Aka lots of fish(my prediction).  I would expect r/g beats to be able to pull it off at almost any other major tourny because of all the maindeck hate versus stax.  The deck just trounces all versions of stax.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Man if there is going to be that much Fish, I would expect thy Kirds to smash face. The creatures/ burn outweigh any Fish deck. Only something completely rogue like Birdshit could take this mighty aggro down 

[prosbloom225]

lol birdshit.  Anyway after any major p9 tourney people start to play the decks that did well.  The people with money play uba stax, the midlevel players play stax/cs and the lower budget players playin fish.  Thats just the majority of the meta.  Smart players will be playing decks that beat stax/cs because thats the majority of the meta.  R/g beats just happens to fit the mold.

[waSP]

Don't start a circle jerk in here.

R/G isn't a good choice for a big tournament for one reason.  Consistency.  I've played the deck enough to know that you need to have a good amount of luck (in your mana base and draws) to make the top 8 of a 5 round tournament.  Don't get me into longer tournies.

Your mana base is inconsistent and you are completely vulnerable to that.  Your lack of draw makes you rely solely on your opening 7 and a few cards off the top.  You have the tools, but can you find them all in time.  Over 7-8 rounds, the answer will be no twice, in all probability.  R/G is very good in small metagames where you actually metagame against most of the decks.  In 100+ person tournies, you are far too vulnerable to your pairings.

Know thy place.

[prosbloom225]

If you see stax and cs all day, you win.  Plain and simple.  Pairings after the first couple of rounds are pretty much just tier decks anyway, so you can still do good.  As for t8ing, it would be tough, but it is possible.  I feel the only reason fish didn't t8 at chicago was because there were no good pilots for the deck.  The deck itself is more consistent than >50% of the field so why not play it.  If good players take the deck to major tournies, they will win with it(assuming the metagame predictions are dead on)

[NicolaeAlmighty]

While it is true there is a lack of a draw engine (unless you play something off the wall like Sylvan Library), R/G is surprisingly consistant. You have beats and burn... and thats about it. My oldest version played Cursed Scroll... Not that bad of an option. The thing about this deck is you give up drawing power for raw consistant beats. The mana base is incredibly stable- with 4 fetches, 4 duals, usually three of each basic, and of course power. I did some playtesting last night against Hulk Smash... The deck won 60% of the time thanks to Rancor and Red Elemental Blast. It's an incredibly consistant deck... You just need to let go of that precious drawing we all love so much... 

[+t]

If I were to play non blue-based aggro/control at gencon, I'd probably want to include Black.  Black gives you some insane restricted goodies, duresses and therapies, rituals (depending on how dependent on black you are) and decent draw.

After that, I'd want another color to be either green or white.

Green gives you deed, efficent regen-men and atri-enchantment removal.

White gives you Swords, True Believer, arti-enchantment removal, and Iacitan Javeliners.

With that said, I'm not sure I would run non blue-based aggro/control at Gencon anyway. 

[NicolaeAlmighty]

... Ok... Well then...  :shock:

[prosbloom225]

While it is true there is a lack of a draw engine (unless you play something off the wall like Sylvan Library), R/G is surprisingly consistant. You have beats and burn... and thats about it. My oldest version played Cursed Scroll... Not that bad of an option. The thing about this deck is you give up drawing power for raw consistant beats. The mana base is incredibly stable- with 4 fetches, 4 duals, usually three of each basic, and of course power. I did some playtesting last night against Hulk Smash... The deck won 60% of the time thanks to Rancor and Red Elemental Blast. It's an incredibly consistant deck... You just need to let go of that precious drawing we all love so much... 

Skullclamp is an amazing draw engine for the deck.  Especially if you run artifact mutation maindeck.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

The biggest problem with Skullclamp is that you want to run Null Rod main as disruption and a way to stay ahead of those Vial playing bastards. Also, your creatures and mana are precious commodities that you really don't want to throw away.

[prosbloom225]

I'd almost run clamp main over null rod because the card advantage is awesome.  Your creatures aren't worth enough that you wouldn't take 2 cards for one creature.  Plus mutation gives you mad 1/1 counters so theres always a useless target laying around for clamp to hit.

[Rapalaman1]

Null Rod is waaaaaaay to huge in this deck to be cutting for a sub-par draw engine. It's not like you have useless vanilla creatures you can clamp away anyway. If you did Artifact Mutate something, you should use the beats combined with whatever you already have on the table and some burn to cut your opponents life in half.
I aggree that Skullclamp is good and that should probably see more play than it does, but in aggro control Null Rod is potentially your strongest weapon.

[Revvik]

Ditto'd.  This is the deck of 2/3's, remember?
Skyshroud Elite and Kird Ape are the meat and potatoes of the deck, with Rancor being the gravy.

[warble]

Skyshroud Elite and Kird Ape are the meat and potatoes of the deck, with Rancor being the gravy.

No, that was like 6 years ago.  Null Rod, Kird Ape and Artifact Mutation are the meat and potatoes and gravy.  Red Elemental Blast is the dessert.

[vroman]

god I hope I face nothing but kird apes all day.

[Komatteru]

god I hope I face nothing but kird apes all day.

Me too.

[policehq]

Has anyone actually tested Goblin Welder in the deck?

Instead of Null Rod, I like Root Maze and Gorilla Shaman, since they are more versatile, and Gorilla Shaman + Goblin Welder is a house against MWS Aggro or any deck that Tinkers a Colossus (big problem for R/G), masks out Dreadnoughts, etc.

I really think the splash for white is more important than other splashes because of Swords to Plowshares. Whenever a creature comes out that Lightning Bolt/Grim Lavamancer can't handle, you lose, pretty much.

[apoc7k]

Has anyone actually tested Goblin Welder in the deck?

Instead of Null Rod, I like Root Maze and Gorilla Shaman, since they are more versatile, and Gorilla Shaman + Goblin Welder is a house against MWS Aggro or any deck that Tinkers a Colossus (big problem for R/G), masks out Dreadnoughts, etc.

I really think the splash for white is more important than other splashes because of Swords to Plowshares. Whenever a creature comes out that Lightning Bolt/Grim Lavamancer can't handle, you lose, pretty much.

He really is right. Me and policehq have played many games, so I've seen how much white can benefit the deck. I could restate every one of his points, and try and reinforce it, but that would be pretty much pointless, since you all get the idea.

[prosbloom225]

god I hope I face nothing but kird apes all day.

If your playing uba stax(which I assume you still are) it isn't that easy of a game.  If the deck pulls a mutation turn 1 going second against one of your big pieces, you have 5-7 1/1's to deal with.  It isn't as easy as you'd think.  Of course I don't play a very good uba stax in testing.

[Moxlotus]

People seem to forget that decks other than CS and Stax exist and will be played.  Combo decks, while they may not have been doing well, still show up.  Oath does too.  Goblins will be popular. 

R/G Beatz is a hate deck, and hate decks never win.  The reason is because eventually they will either get out brokened or they will run into a deck they don't hate.  This combined with the consistancy needed over 8 rounds makes R/G Beatz a deck that I believe is a poor choice to bring.

[prosbloom225]

That is true,  but given if the deck sees all stax all day, its going to t8.  It can beat other decks on a consistent basis, just not as good as non-hate decks.  With an almost 100%chance versus stax, it is a solid choice if the meta goes as predicted.

[Moxlotus]

That is true,  but given if the deck sees all stax all day, its going to t8.  It can beat other decks on a consistent basis, just not as good as non-hate decks.  With an almost 100%chance versus stax, it is a solid choice if the meta goes as predicted.

Stax was less tha 10% of the meta at Chicago.  I doubt it will rocket up to 60 or 70%.  No one will play Stax every match in a 7-8 round tournament.  I doubt they will play it 3 times.

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

I whould wonder if Staxx gets played by 60 or 70% of the people in a turnament but in my eyes you underrate R/G too much.
Yeah it is often played as a budget deck and yes it's often designed as a hat deck too. However good constructed, well metagamed and piloted by a skillfull player it is everthing else than a bad deck.
The problem is that that many of the R/G Decks / Players in the past didn't fullfill these criterias.

[Rico Suave]

I whould wonder if Staxx gets played by 60 or 70% of the people in a turnament but in my eyes you underrate R/G too much.
Yeah it is often played as a budget deck and yes it's often designed as a hat deck too. However good constructed, well metagamed and piloted by a skillfull player it is everthing else than a bad deck.
The problem is that that many of the R/G Decks / Players in the past didn't fullfill these criterias.

That is because the better players choose not to play R/G.  For a reason.

I would imagine that a great player with a well constructed, well metagamed, spot-on build of R/G would do well.  The problem arises in that the same great player could play a well constructed, well metagamed, spot-on build of something better and as a result perform with a stronger finish. 

[warble]

The problem arises in that the same great player could play a well constructed, well metagamed, spot-on build of something better and as a result perform with a stronger finish.

Well, actually, red/green has some great hate cards (artifact mutation, null rod, seedtime, root maze, chalice) that really aren't available to other decks.  It's called hate because when you run into a deck that you "hate" you absolutely steamroll it.  Can we accurately predict the worlds' metagame will have big fat artifacts to mutate and some tiny utility creatures you can burn to slow down aggro?  I think so.  Would you be willing to count on your 5-0 opponent's vulnerability to null rod, burn and artifact mutation?  I'd say yes.  True, a broken draw with R/G looks way different from the broken Gifts draw.  But I've gifted for a "win next turn" using mana drain mana the turn before null rod plopped down waaaaay too many times to look R/G in the face and tell it it's a scrub deck.  With hate, you survive the first few rounds and then trounce people because the top tables are full of workshops and slaver.

Does this mean you have to use uber skills the first three rounds AND get a little lucky?  Yes, so you might have a somewhat lesser win percentage early on with your hate deck.  Is that a legitimate reason to not play hate?  If your budget dicates you play hate, you play hate.  If you know you're going to win your first 4 rounds, you probably actually WANT to be playing that hate deck.  Heck, this thread is making me want to play a deck with Lotus being the only power.  I keep daydreaming about holding 2xMutation with Root Maze and Null Rod in play.

[xrobx]

This deck is great vs CS and stax, we've established that 10 times over.

The same flaw is present though, in this deck, that has always been, and likely will always be present.  The card drawing issue.  Fish has a nice synergistic feel to it, and draws you tons of cards.  It plops out little idiots all day long.  BS can basically do the same thing, only faster and funnier.

The only really viable option for draw in this deck is sylvain library/skull clamp/adding blue.  I've tried adding blue, and it does work, but changes the focus of the deck entirely.  You no longer run null rod with clamp, and often won't run it with blue (as blue adds in AR+TW+mox, and probably Tinker+DSC+off colored moxen + academy), it just stems out too much with blue.

Personally, I think that land still could do very well right now.  Make land creatures, and recur wastelands all day long.  Blow up stuff with disks/EEs/kegs, whatever floats your boat.

[waSP]

You guys would plan to go to Gencon with a deck that hates two decks very well, and does everything else worse than most every deck.  Huh?

This is what I've gotten from this thread.

"We run really strong cards.  That's all that matters."

"Hate is STRONG."

"Worlds will be all Workshops and other decks."

R/G is a poor choice for one reason alone.  You can't count on playing against Workshops at ANY point in the tournament and you can't count on your hate to always show up when you need it.  I'm not saying it can't do well.  I'm sure if someone with enough experience (there are few of us) could x-2 at Worlds without too much trouble, but I do NOT think anyone will top 8.  There isn't enough power in the deck.  There are too many situations where you are impotent to stop your opponent.

I challenge a R/G player to actually outline the weaknesses of the deck.  If you can't see your weaknesses, you can't actually know your strength.

And by the way, no one should EVER run Seedtime.

[prosbloom225]

Seedtime is ownage in a blue biased meta.  R/g Beats is one of the best and easiest decks to meta for.  You cannot just grab a netdeck for it because half the deck is meta cards.

[Rico Suave]

Well, actually, red/green has some great hate cards (artifact mutation, null rod, seedtime, root maze, chalice) that really aren't available to other decks.  It's called hate because when you run into a deck that you "hate" you absolutely steamroll it.  Can we accurately predict the worlds' metagame will have big fat artifacts to mutate and some tiny utility creatures you can burn to slow down aggro?  I think so.  Would you be willing to count on your 5-0 opponent's vulnerability to null rod, burn and artifact mutation?  I'd say yes. 

I'd have to disagree with your statement that hate steamrolls over the decks it is supposed to hate.  Anybody remember back when sligh packed things like maindeck PoP, Ankh, and tons of other stuff to try and beat Keeper?  All the hate in the world still couldn't get sligh to do any better than 50/50, and a prepared Keeper player wouldn't even allow that. 

Many of these hate cards can be stopped, played around, or simply ignored.  Yes, they will win games every once in a while.  I can assure you it's not pleasant playing against all that hate either.  It takes just as much concentration to beat R/G as it does a high-powered deck.  That being said, I would like to echo the sentiments of others in this thread in saying "god I hope I face nothing but kird apes all day."

The only legitimate reason to play R/G I can think of is if your budget doesn't allow for playing another deck.  That is a perfectly fine reason, but if you have the option to play a deck that doesn't rely on your opponent using a specific set of cards in order to have game, then that would be the best course of action.