Artifact Destruction that's good.

[rvs]

We were talking about Pitching Needle, as a Jitte hoser, and this came up.

Good Needle
0
Artifact
T, Sac ~this~: Destroy target artifact with a CC of 2 or less.

Please, explain to me why this would be insane. I realise the colorwheel might have some problems, but I don't care about it that much :p

[rvs]

current wording:

Good Needle
0
Artifact
T, Sac ~this~: Destroy target non-land artifact with a CC of 2 or less.

[Ephraim]

It can't cost zero. Maybe if it costs more, it will be feasible. As it is, this is an un-kickered Overload for free. Granted, Overload isn't exactly red's best artifact killer ever, but red does share dedicated artifact destruction with green.

[Matt]

It's not overpowered in the conventional sense, because decks can just stop running artifacts ("OMG WTF" say the Type One players). Having to stop running activated abilities is much harder. This isn't too powerful but it does mess with the color pie in an unacceptable way.

[dandan]

Good Needle
X
Artifact
T, Sac ~this~: Destroy target artifact with a CC of 0.
If you paid for X using Red or Green mana this gains:
T, Sac ~this~: Destroy target artifact with a CC of 2 or less.
If you paid for X using White or Blue mana this gains:
T, Sac ~this~: Destroy target artifact with a CC of 1.

Black sucks at Artifact destruction. I guess it could be allowed to destroy very very very small artifacts though. Blue and white are a little better, and Red and Green are actually quite good at it. Even by modifying this card dramtically, this would still be Black's best artifact kill since Gate to Phyrexia (and it is hard work keeping up with rulings on that one)

Having a CC of X is fairly relevant if you view this as a Chalice killer. Note that these can destroy each other.

[rvs]

Your idea makes sense dandan, but it overcomplicates the card. This is just a simple Jitte-killer, and I would rather leave the color-pie debate out of it for now. But anyway, I don't see why black shouldn't be able to get rid of a Chalice, Jitte, or something else that doesn't cost much.

[dandan]

Because machines don't die of fright

[Limbo]

Because machines don't die of fright

Yeah, but a black mage could use a simple toolbox to destroy small artificial items...

[Machinus]

The existence of the color black makes this an unreasonable card.

[dandan]

Because machines don't die of fright

Yeah, but a black mage could use a simple toolbox to destroy small artificial items...

Why would a real black mage do that when he could use an army of undead warriors and spells fuelled by his very life essence and soul to destroy the world?

Reanimate a Gorilla Shamen if you want to destroy an artifact.

Back to the card

Spanner in the Works
X
Artifact
Sunburst
Only non-Black mana can be used to cast ~this~
T, Sac ~this~: Destroy target artifact with converted mana cost equal to or less than the number of charge counters on ~this~

Note that this still gives Black some artifact killing and Blue can still get rid of anything a Trinket Mage can fetch so I think this is still pushing the envelope.

The aforementioned Black mage, if he wanted to be a complete woose, could use a toolbox (Coretapper, Energy Chamber, Pentad Prism) to take out artifacts that are too big to crush underfoot.

[rvs]

The woossie black mage can already play tons of stuff that it shouldn't, like pitching needle. I don't see how this is THAT much more of a problem, as it only takes out small stuff.

[dandan]

My personal view is that Blue had too much of the colour pie, followed by Black and Red with Green and White being shortchanged. Because of this I am possibly more resistant to Black getting an artifact killer than to say White getting something that isn't a 2/2 for WW (seemingly everything else belongs to someone else in the colour pie).

In any case, the are saying that Black could be allowed to kill small artifacts as am I. Engineered Explosives does this already although for more mana. I don't really like the idea of a Black Mage blowing up a Keg for a card and no mana. Artifacts can do things that some colours can't but the mana cost has to be appropriate. Red (the king of artifact killing can blow up small artifacts for R, now you want to allow all colours to do this but for less mana. Surely you jest.

[rvs]

Comparing this to Overload is quite unfair, because Overload has a much broader application. Also, this cannot blow up lands, and is much more focused at specifics (aka: narrower).

[dandan]

Hmmmmmm, artifact lands are commonly used in how many formats (I guess you could be talking about Factories).

Comparing to existing cards is standard benchmarking. Artifact costs are commonly priced around the same as if the worst colour has the effect. Blowing up 2cc artifacts is not something Black should have easy access to. 0cc artifact killing belongs to Red. I have agreed that Black can have access to artifact destruction via an artifact, now we are discussing the cost. The non-land limitation is a fairly minor one and IMHO has no relevance to CC as it does not significantly narrow the use of the card. You are saying that any colour should have access to artifact kill at a lower cost than Red currently has. I disagree.
I have offered something that offers the cheapest ever solution to 0cc artifacts, a 1cc solution to 1cc artifacts for everyone but monoblack and an effect similar in cost to Seal of Cleansing/Shatter/Disenchant that can take out anything up to 2cc. My version could possibly take out Juggernauts/Smokestack and the like so is far from narrow. Is that really overcosting this effect?

[Shadow-Walker]

I dont like the nonland clause but what if this CIPT?  The whole black mage using a tool box idea works with this as its something that would take a bit of time.

[dandan]

It is commonly accepted logic that artifacts can have abilities forbidden to individual colours but at a higher cost than the colours that excell at that ability enjoy. CIPT is an interesting idea although I fear it makes this a bad card. I agree that the current version of the card is too strong (can you imagine Red getting a ''Seal of Overload' for 0 mana let alone Black!)

[Jacob Orlove]

The problem is that a lot of card ideas that aren't even good still violate the color pie. For example, you will never see the following, even though no one would ever complain about it being overpowered:

1BB
Sorcery
Destroy target enchantment.

The bottom line is that if we want colors to mean anything, we have to make sure that artifacts can't do everything.

Besides, if black *really* needs a jitte-killer, it can just run jitte!

[dandan]

Killing all creatures takes care of Jittle, as does killing an opponent or killing yourself - all fine Black solutions.

I still think my solution is a reasonable Artifact which gives some colours access to weak Artifact-kill whilst keeping the colour-wheel intact (as Black already has Engineered Explosives to take out small Artifacts).