3cc, building and playing it right.

[Pave]

I never have problems finding the right coloured mana.  In the early game I am far more concerned not to have my lands stripped by Wasteland.  For this reason I see no need for Gemstone Mine.

In May Stephen Menendian wrote "We are seeing more and more tools for Control to combo out and we need to be ahead of the curve...Something that needs to be recognized is that [because it is simply better to win now, the logic goes] the era of reactive control is truly over" (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9664.html).  Brian, do you agree?  Your 3cc is full of synergies but not combos of the sort that Stephen had in mind; it is precisely that style of deck whose era Stephen thinks 'truly over'.  Recently you and Stephen have seemed to agree that, for better or worse, Slaver is currently the best deck in Vintage.  Do you see, or what is more play, Slaver MORE as a reactive control deck akin to your 3cc or rather as a control deck with a combo finish, the Slaver lock that says 'I win now'?  Do you play Slaver over 3cc simply because it is a better (reactive) control deck or because it is capable of a combo finish?  Or do you play it because it is both?  (If both, is 3cc then begging for a combo-finish?  Or does it just then logically eventuate in Gifts?  I don't see that it must.  What perhaps new combos might 3cc look to as among its possible roads to victory?)

It occurred to me recently that I play Keeper for a number of reasons, only some of which are strategic.  First, I want always to be ABLE to win.  I want there to be no situation where I haven't a possible out.  But that is only part of a broader psychology, and this is a very serious (if tangential) point: I want 'only just' to win, both as the expression of a certain elegance and, deeper still, so as to bring out the best in my opponent, both in play and in spirit.  (Combo can achieve precisely the opposite, as could four Trinispheres - was this finally why it was restricted?)  Stephen Menendian might well argue that playing the strongest possible decks (that is, not playing Keeper OR Control Slaver, because though it is perhaps the strongest current deck 'it should not be') is precisely both 'the expression of a certain elegance' and how best to 'bring out the best' in one's opponent, 'both in play and in spirit'.  I can understand that and appreciate it.  It is not obviously correct, though, and that is a radical point, and one which, at heart, has me playing Keeper.

Strategically, though, combo will always have a certain weakness.  (At the moment many combos depend on their graveyard, for instance.)  It is for Keeper to shore up against such weaknesses on its own behalf and at the same time exploit those in its opponents.  (Aggro has a different sort of weakness, a more general one, which the earliest control decks identified.)

Kim Kluck's recent (winning) 3cc list uses Dismantling Blow on the board (http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=285).  That is another answer to Chalice for two (and one which might replace your second Disenchant on the board, Brian?).  This deck is identical to Zherbus's old list save for the following:

Maindeck:

-1 Mind Twist; +1 Disenchant
-1 Skeletal Scrying; +1 Impulse

Sideboard:

-1 Gush; +1 Skeletal Scrying
-3 Phyrexian Furnace; +2 Pithing Needle
-3 Sacred Ground; + 1 Dismantling Blow, + 1 Hurkyl's Recall, + 1 Seal of Cleansing, + 1 Serenity

The Stax plan presents so much genuine removal as opposed to a general hoser.  That strikes me as in keeping with among the original plans of Keeper to very efficiently answer threats as they appear while keeping ahead in terms of card advantage.  I have not sufficiently tested this approach to Stax, however.  What do you think Kluck's precise boarding plan would be?  Would the Duresses stay or all come out?

With so many Wish targets now, I wonder whether the lone maindeck Impulse might bettter be a third Cunning Wish or even, as a replacement drawer and something else to sac to Tinker, a Sensei's Divining Top.

I do think Darkblast and Tormod's Crypt belong somewhere in 3cc, even maindeck.

I am sure that many people have some interesting three or four-colour control lists.  I would love to see them.

[MaxxMatt]

There are a lot of things that our old 3cc deck should do now to compete with Gifts or C-Slavery or Atogs.

More than playing with 4 Duress.
But, IMHO,  it is always the first step.

Playing a deck similar to the old 3cc, we can be forced to play:

(13)
4 Duress
4 Drain
4 FoW
1 Mindtwist

(11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Skeletal
1 FoF
1 Ancestral
1 Walk

(6)
3 Cunning
1 Tinker
1 Demonic
1 Mystical

(6)
2 Furnaces
1 DSC
1 Decree
1 Y Will
1 Balance

(24)
5 Fetch
4 Undeground
2 Tundra
4 Island
8 CrySoLoMoxen
1 LoA

You have a decent matchup against C-Slavery and Gifts due to Duress+Furnaces+Other Control elements.

Cunnings can give you time and resources to survive inevitability and the winning plan, even if slow compared to Gifts and C-Slavery, is solid.

You don't have real control elements rather than Wishes and Furnaces and Balance, but you can toy with your tutors and your drawers and discard effects until you are able to perfectly protect them.

Turn 1. Duress
Turn 2. Drain
Turn 3. Skeletal + FoW

are good starts for a deck that lack since is birth a good way to deal with the Early Game.



Playing with Red instead of White can give you different opportunities and revamp a Keeper-esque approch to the game plan.

You could play my list ( it did well in multiple test's sessions ).

(10)
4 Drain
4 FoW
2 Needles

(12)
4 Brainstorm
4 TFK
2 Gifts
1 Ancestral
1 FoF

(8)
1 Walk
1 Recoup
1 Shaman
1 CoW
1 Strip
1 DSC
1 Y. Will
1 E.E.

(6)
3 Cunning
1 Tinker
1 Demonic
1 Mystical

(24)
10 CryVaultPetalSoLoMoxen
4 Fetch
4 Island
3 Undeground
2 Volcanic
1 Academy

The goal to achieve is a good combination of Tinker, Recoup, Strip, Demonic to find a CoW and a Shaman to put online THE BEST denial configuration available for a control deck.

Cunnig usually give you the same opportunity because of the presence of Vampiric in side.
Cunning can be easily compared to Burning if it can grab Brainfreeze.
On the other hand, it can give you Instant speed Drawers ( Skeletal and Gush ), Solutions ( F/Is, Darts, Charms, StPs, Artifact Bouncers ), Counters ( Rebs and Mis-Ds ) and free spells ( Mogg Salvage or Gush or Mis-D ).
All those options could let you play the "Y. Will's plan" without difficulties against almost any opponents.

Cunning's flexibility is >>>> Burning's strenght

Needles and E.E.s are good TFKs enhancers if needed and they can be easily swapped for Duresses or Furnaces if your metas force you playing with the latters instead of those artifacts.

Sideboard options are ReBs, Pyro, Gifts#3, Skeletal, Gush, F/I, Rushing, Rebuild, H Recall, R&R, Mis-D, Mogg Salvage, Purge, Dart, Duresses, Crypts and additional Needles. All of them can be easily chosen for any metagame with good results.

I would play the DSC's plan against a lot of players but I found that the other game plan is really strong too, especially against Control and Combo, coupled to the additional problems that Needles and Wishes can give to the unprepared opponent.



Maxx

[Ufactor]

@MM: Wow, it's scary how similar our maindecks look;  There's only a five card difference.

@EVERYONE:   I personally can't wait for October 20 (or Sunday thanks to Ray) so I can shove Suppression Fields down the throat of Fish and Stax.  How does everyone else feel about this card?

[Gort32]

Question:  Is Mana Crypt really that good of a choice for this deck?  Real control decks like this are built that they most likely will not win before the damage from Crypt becomes rather painful.  Combine this with the damage that you'll take under the ideal scenario of fetchlands and Scryings and the fact that it is not your ideal goal to just try to Tinker it out as quickly as possible.  This deck lives in the mid-to-endgame.  Crypt thrives in the early game but becomes painful rather quickly.  20 life seems like a large resource pool in Type 1 but it is still finite...

[Dralock]

@MM: Wow, it's scary how similar our maindecks look;  There's only a five card difference.

@EVERYONE:   I personally can't wait for October 20 (or Sunday thanks to Ray) so I can shove Suppression Fields down the throat of Fish and Stax.  How does everyone else feel about this card?

Besdies wasteland, why would stax care?

*Content Edit* This is the second line, I really just want to point out that stax doesn't give two flips about suppression field unless they run welders and rely on recurring stips as the primary method of disruption.

[Ufactor]

while I understand that some of these are only minor nuances, the list of relevant cards is quite long.

Stax:
Wasteland (rendering CoW half-useless)
Strip Mine
Goblin Welder
Gorilla Shaman
Karn Silver Golem
Triskelion

WTF:

Aether Vial
Umezawa's Jitte
Wild Mongrel
Basking Rootwalla
Mishra's Factory
Wasteland/Strip Mine
Fetchland (which is inconsequential since SField hits yours, too)

Other Fish:

Gorilla Shaman
Grim Lavamancer
Spiketail Hatchling
Voidmage Prodigy
Icatian Javeleneers

???Ninja of the Deep Hours??? - is Ninjitsu considered an activated ability???

[forests failed you]

Yes Ninjitsu is an activated ability.  However, it counts as an activated ability of a Card in hand and not a creature in play.  Therefore it can be Stifled but not hosed by Damping Matrix.

I play Slaver as a Keeper style control deck.  The only difference is instead of waiting for my chance to Cycle decree and clock my opponent, I am looking for my chance to Slaver them.

I have been playing a modified list of this deck a lot lately.  And have won two pieces of power with it at local tournaments.  It is a solid and competative list.  I think that with more work and tweaking it could be one of the better decks in the format.  I don't know why Steve believes that pure control decks can't win in Vintage.  He and I seem to have polar opposite opinions of what works in Vintage.  He wants to combo out, and I want to play a land every turn and not lose.  You don't necessarily need a combo finish to win six rounds in a tournament.  It is very helpful, but it isn't necessary.  Field seems like a great choice for the deck, but would require lots of maindeck changes to my initial list.  I like the other lists people have been posting up here.  The one card that I think i would relaly miss is Isochron's Scepter.  That card is such a beating in every mtachup where they don't have Welders, and even sometimes when they do.

And I agree with you that I also like to always have an out no matter what.

[MoxMonkey]

Anyone else testing a Build with SF Main.  I have a list but its only been tested a hand full of times.  Been trying to prep for Waterbury Day 1 instead of Day 2.
1 LOA / Island #6
2 Gemstone Mine
4 fetch
5 Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring

3 Decree of Justice / 2 Decree 1 Tinker 1 DSC

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

1 Mind Twist
3 Suppression Field

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Skeletal Scrying

1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares - Do you need 2 Main still
2 Cunning Wish

1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Balance
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB
2 Pithing Needle
2 REB
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Disenchant
1 Fire/Ice / Lava Dart / Darkblast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Gush

I'd like to make room for 1 Isochron but I'm having trouble on what to cut.  Are 2 STP main needed or can 1 and wishes make up for it?

[MaxxMatt]

@EVERYONE: 
....  Suppression Fields ....
How does everyone else feel about this card?

I used to thing about this card as a tool for NON-Blue-Control decks.
While I see a lot of strong uses for it in those decks, it is really pretty useless to build around or even play with cards that are only trying to retard a problem against which you should and could hurry-up on finding permanent answers.

I can easily realize that Wastelands, Shamans, Welders, Fetchlands, Bazaars, Atogs, E.E., Lavamancers, Thieves and Jesters are a bit slowed down.

The thing that really trouble me is that it can be considered exactly as much as Moat, years ago in Keeper: A slow way to give your opponent the opportunity to escape from it and find a solution.

There aren't bad deck anymore.
Anyone can remove Needles, Moats and Suppression Fields.
While the first ones are at least asimmetrical and quick answers to a lot of problems, Su.Field. is a static that can do nothing for BlueBased decks.

Question:  Is Mana Crypt really that good of a choice for this deck?  Real control decks like this are built that they most likely will not win before the damage from Crypt becomes rather painful.  Combine this with the damage that you'll take under the ideal scenario of fetchlands and Scryings and the fact that it is not your ideal goal to just try to Tinker it out as quickly as possible.  This deck lives in the mid-to-endgame.  Crypt thrives in the early game but becomes painful rather quickly.  20 life seems like a large resource pool in Type 1 but it is still finite...

For years, the REAL handicap of Blue-Based control decks that cannot resolve HUGE locks against the opponents have been doing nearly nothing strong during the Early game.
Both mana development and Cards Advantages are the ONLY things that can brought you at the level of Gifts and C-Slavery in this specific part of the game.

The trade to do consist on breaking MtG Game's Rules, one after one.
-Deprive yourself of your buffer of life points if you need
-Bury turns after turns playing the most consistent drawers and the best mana acceleration available.

If you are AT LEAST able to do it, you can try to achieve that sort of plateau. When you are higher than your opponent, playing more than 3-5 Turns is really stupid and useless.

On the other hand, you have to play Crypt during turn 1 or 2 ONLY if you are able to capitalize SO MUCH mana advantage really soon.
You can't play it only to use FoW without pitching nothing.
You have to do storng things.

First or second turn, Tinkers, Wishes, Skeletals, FoF, double 2cc spells ( Demonic + Walk or Balance + other spells ), Mindtwists, CoW and any other combination of strong spells is worth of playing Crypt.

Sometimes you can think of being able to search and find solution against first turn Welders or DSC or Bazaars or anything quick and strong ONLY if you can dispose of the best acceleration available.
The deck is really mana intensive and that mana curve have been playable only because of that best possible Accelerations/Mana rate.

while I understand that some of these are only minor nuances, the list of relevant cards is quite long.

Stax:
....
WTF:
....
Other Fish:
....

Rather than playing things that don't resolve problems, I think that we should talk about capitalizing the FEW resourves that this deck can try to use to survive.

Wasting space to play Su.Field only steal us of additional Wishes, Removals AND MOST OF ALL, Duresses and Drawers.

While, singlehandly, ALL the cards that you wrote are stopped by Su.Field for at least one or two turns, I think that this LITTLE time advantage cannot be compared to ALL THE OTHER answers abailable at now for 3C-C.

While StPs and Disenchants and Duresses and Drawers GET RID of problems, Su.Field, MAYBE, would slow down their come.

I play Slaver as a Keeper style control deck.  The only difference is instead of waiting for my chance to Cycle decree and clock my opponent, I am looking for my chance to Slaver them.

I have been playing a modified list of this deck a lot lately.  And have won two pieces of power with it at local tournaments.  It is a solid and competative list.  I think that with more work and tweaking it could be one of the better decks in the format.  I don't know why Steve believes that pure control decks can't win in Vintage.  He and I seem to have polar opposite opinions of what works in Vintage.  He wants to combo out, and I want to play a land every turn and not lose.  You don't necessarily need a combo finish to win six rounds in a tournament. It is very helpful, but it isn't necessary.  Field seems like a great choice for the deck, but would require lots of maindeck changes to my initial list.  I like the other lists people have been posting up here. 

I can't agree anymore or talk about that argument better.
With a little, but sadly crucial difference:

C-Slavery can win more than 3C-C- because of its inherent MINOR mana dependance.
From 1 up to 3/4 mana are MORE THAN enough for clocking/locking the opponent down, with the right combination of cards.

Being able to do the same with a good 3C-C's build is nearly impossible, if we exclude some UNPREDICTABLE restricted cards' stacks.

I can't go with Welders and TFKs ONLY with FoW backup to speed up my win.
I have to develop at least 5 or 6 mana on table and a couple of counters to be able to positively protect my spells.

That slowness and the staticity are the lines that that deck HAVE to surpass to transform losses in wins.

The one card that I think i would relaly miss is Isochron's Scepter.  That card is such a beating in every mtachup where they don't have Welders, and even sometimes when they do.

Against decks that not packs Cunning Wishes, I have found that Scepters are betters POST side rather than having them maindecked.
The little surprise effect can be the difference between losing and winning another game.
it can Steal games even in a deck not built around it.

Anyone else testing a Build with SF Main.  I have a list but its only been tested a hand full of times.

I appreciate the Darkblast in your side.
Playing without Red ALWAYS forced me to think about F/Is, Starstorms, Firestorms, Pyroclasms and Lava Darts as a paradise lost.
Excluding Balance, any other spells is always a 1-for-1 trade without any improvements.
Darkblast is a BETTER replacement for them when you (1) don't have Red spells available and (2) you have to capitalize the mana needed to kill critters.

3C-C is the redundant version of the old Keeper and 4C-C's decks.
Playing with a single Wishable Darkblast and milling two or three times isn't much of a problem.
You could always play it multiple times with the goal of replacing all the useful stuff in thanks to Y. Will.


The deck you proposed have:

--3 Decrees or 2 Decrees and 2 Tinker/DSC.
It seems a bit strange to me.
Is it an error or are you going to play with 4 maindeck winning conditions if needed?

--3 Suppression Fields
...instead of Duresses.

I don't know why but anytime you would play Su:Field instead of other spells, your opponent would take a breath of relief...
I suggest you to play with Duresses if you are going to play with the 3/4 Skeletals as the base of your draw engine.
On the other hand, I suggest you to play with more TFKs and ADDITIONAL Artifacts to feed to them and 1 or 2 Skeletals.
Switch out Su Fields with other game breaking spells and the deck would play and win more consistently.

--StPs and Disenchants maindeck.
You are playing with Cunnings but you decided to add those random elements.
Take into account that Slavery, Gifts, Storm-Combo and Atogs aren't touched by removals at all.
Those games should be win with Superior card's advantage.
Not hoping to Plow or Break things blindly.
I suggest you 3 Wishes and an E.E. as your ONLY maindeck resources.

All the space that I'm freeing to you should be dedicated to Dynamic spells, more drawers and additional Discard effects.

If you are playing a control deck with Black but without Red and Duresses, I can ASSURE you that playing UWr-Control would be better....

--You decided to play with Tinker + CoW as additional plan.
I suggest you to play, somewhere the single Stripmine.
You can Tutor it with Demonic or Wish-->Vampiric tutor.
I FULLY understand that it is a slow and maybe useless game plan, but I DON'T SEE ANY MORE use of CoW in a control deck with a good and solid mana base as the one you proposed but WITHOUT denial recursion.
You have 6 duals and 5 Basics. They are enough to fight and kill anyone with Wastelands.
Ii suggest you to play with Mana Crypt and Stripmine instead of Gemstone Mine #1 and #2.
Even playing with 25 mana fonts is redundant if you are going to play without Stripmine.
Cut it and you would have 24 mana fonts.
They are enough to kill anyone with large Deecres and enough to go around frequent and DEADLY MANA FLOODS.

[rakso]

I wrote down some thoughts for building (or being unable to build) 3cc or 4cc today. http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10615.html Thoughts?

[Pave]

Rakso, I liked your article.  To me its implications were these: use basics, lots of accelerants and the drawer commensurate with them (Thirst), outstrip your opponent on this front via Shaman and have access to removal [MaxxMatt's UBR deck above applies these precisely].  They amount to the suggestion that generally something like Probasco Gifts or Slaver is the current 'Deck'.  Though I wonder whether more focus might have been brought to bear on the strategic gulf that seems to me to exist between at least the first of these and Keeper (or 3cc, say), that is, one says 'win first' and the other 'prevent your opponent from winning'.  I don't think that in MDGoat, for example, "'The Deck' lives on".  That is, do you (and others) think that T1 is polarising along the axis of combo (if you can, ignore your opponent, combo out: Gifts) and, say, prison (if you can, ignore your opponent, lock them out: Stax)?  I also would have appreciated more input on specific card choices for control (specifically 3-colour control) in the current meta, though I appreciate that your aim was more general.

When Smmenen said that Slaver may be the best deck but that it should not be, did that amount to simply an indictment on, say, a sometimes clunky deck or, on the other hand, to purely a repetition of the implicit claim that pure control 'should' no longer be viable (as aggro 'should' no longer be viable)?  If the second, I think it manifest of a combo-tastic vision of T1 and of what makes it special that I don't share.  I like the old combo-aggro-control triad (with prison as the fourth estate).

MaxxMatt is right concerning Suppression Field and the desperate need of control decks to develop mana and draw early on.  I heed these words of his closely.  Keeper needs permanent solutions and it must keep apace with the most explosive decks in the early game.

MaxxMatt, I have tested against your UBR deck above and it is savage - it takes Probasco's curve (which I find very smooth: 4 FoW, 4 Drain, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Thirst, 2 Gifts) and gives it the full control role toward which its Needles and EE would see it gravitate.  These artifacts are not only potent utilities in as much as they can provide crucial defenses against wasteland and welder, say, but they fit perfectly into your deck insofar as they can also go on the offense and attack fetchlands and moxen.  If your deck does combo, it combos in more than out, establishing control over an opponent's mana base rather than winning outright.  That may sound strictly inferior but I'm not so sure, partly because in no way do you NEED to combo.  I am testing the following sideboard (though I worry that it is insuffient against Stax):

BACK-UP WIN
1 Flaming Gambit [may be unnecessary, but a nice fall back]
1 Brain Freeze

CREATURE REMOVAL
1 Firestorm
1 Snuff Out
1 Darkblast

ARTIFACT REMOVAL
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mogg Salvage
1 Rack and Ruin

TUTOR/DRAW
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gush [perhaps a Skeletal is needed]

COUNTERS
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Misdirection
1 Coffin Purge
1 Pithing Needle

Do you have a set board, MaxxMatt?

I have not tested your UBW deck.  Next to Zherbus it says: -2 Decree, -1 Old Man, -2 Swords; +1 Tinker, +1 Collosus, +1 Cunning Wish, +2 Furnace.  This MAY improve control match ups, though at the cost of the Stax and Fish match-ups.  That may be the right direction (I worry that Brian's 3cc list doesn't have enough nuts in control mirrors), but I don't know if Furnaces do enough.  Sometimes you really need Swords and now.  It offers power against Stax, Slaver and Fish and flexibility against Gifts in what you can give them: have your Tinker, say - this they may not expect.  I worry that 2 kill conditions is insufficient too.  Multiple Decrees are still good in control mirrors.

Generally, Gifts is my only real problem match (though to Stax somtimes you just lose).  What is the most savage tech I can take to them, assuming UBW and that, say, you have 3 SB cards to port in?  If you hate their graveyard, they can still try to outdraw you and protect a Tinker out of the hand.  If you attack their hand, they can still abuse their yard and get back in the game, if not combo out.  Their mana base does seem a vulnerability.  Should we be the control (pure card advatage) or the tempo-disruption and beatdown?  I tend toward the first though combinations may be needed.  (MaxxMatt's UBR deck seems to combine thus.)  Are Shadow of Doubt or even Gilded Light possibilites (the latter stopping both Gifts and Tendrils)?  How might Planar Void be implemented without destroying one's own draw engine?

[Revvik]

Would Mystic Remora accomplish this?  I remember it being used in some older Keeper builds - maybe it holds true today. 

[rakso]

Pave, I think you summarized what I was trying to say, except I was trying to describe emerging trends instead of necessarily implying they all had to be in the same deck.

My problem, though, with your conclusions is that IMHO, Thirst without Welder does not pull its weight, except only when it's leading for Gifts. Further, with all that artifact acceleration, you need to be able to do something broken with it and not just simply have it. What old "The Deck" builds with Tolarian Academy and no additional artifact mana could do back then doesn't really cut it anymore.

Like I said in another thread, I think that the critical mass that has allowed very fast mini-combos has taken control to another philosophical level. For comparison, I think the last time the control player mindset had to change so radically was when we first brought Yawgmoth's Will in.

Among other thing, it alters how you think of "a deck of solutions" since two alternate kill combos means two ultimate solutions where every problem is simply a nail.

Mystic Remora? It was never really used. Maybe narrowly in some blue combo decks.

[Pave]

I have been playing a modified list of this deck a lot lately.

Brian, could I trouble you for those modifications?  What are they and for what reasons did you make them?

[MaxxMatt]

(10)
4 Drain
4 FoW
2 Needles
(12)
4 Brainstorm
4 TFK
2 Gifts
1 Ancestral
1 FoF
(8)
1 Walk
1 Recoup
1 Shaman
1 CoW
1 Strip
1 DSC
1 Y. Will
1 E.E.
(6)
3 Cunning
1 Tinker
1 Demonic
1 Mystical
(24)
10 CryVaultPetalSoLoMoxen
5 Fetch
4 Island
2 Undeground
2 Volcanic
1 Academy

According to this list, I'm playing this sideboard:



Good solutions to deal with Chalices and Smokestacks. The presence of a lot of Instances, let you play around Wires far easier than other control decks.

2 Rack & Ruin
1 Hurkyll's Recall


Tools to deal with Critters, Fatties and maybe MW.decs creatures/permanents.

1 F/I
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth


Best configuration of additional counters for control and combo matchup

1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Misdirection


Best unused drawers at my disposal. Gifts#3 have been considered but rejected because too mana intensive. That deck have a lower mana curve if compared to the Gifts.dec's one.

1 Gush
1 Skeletal


Combo enhancer and additional tutor to optimize Cunnings.

1 Vampiric Tutor


I fear CotV=1 far more than CotV for 2 or 3, both for my maindeck configuration, both because they are less common than the first one. Smart CotV's players play it for 0 and 1 against me. I have to find solutions with different cc. It cycles too and do exactly what Ebony Charm and Coffin Purge had been doing fro me until now: A good job.

1 Rapid Decay


Additional Winning Condition with Cunning Wishes and another STRONG winner against Other control decks and combo decks. Shaman AND Sundering are far more stronger than any other spells against any mana hungry deck all around. Don't worry, I side out DSC. I would not play with two dead cards into my hand.
PS. Notice a trend: Against control and combo decks, this version play Needles, Shamans, CoW+Strip, Sundering and Wishes. IMHO, it is one of the best set of solutions to play a "control" role durin those games.

1 Brainfreeze
1 Sundering Titan



Feel free to ask me anything you could think about those choices.
At now, I'm more focused on playing MyOwnGifts.dec instead that this "ControlDeckWithGiftsToo", but I found it a really strong solution to my own actual metagame.


Maxx

[rakso]

Gifts#3 have been considered but rejected because too mana intensive. That deck have a lower mana curve if compared to the Gifts.dec's one.

PS. Notice a trend: Against control and combo decks, this version play Needles, Shamans, CoW+Strip, Sundering and Wishes. IMHO, it is one of the best set of solutions to play a "control" role durin those games.

About being too mana intensive, I'm not too sure. Consider you have considerably more acceleration than the older control builds down to Tolarian Academy, plus Mana Drain.

As for playing control, since you can set up a combo kill, I think longer-term control elements like Crucible are superfluous.

[forests failed you]

Setting up cow as a control element is pretty good, as it allows you to win the Mana war against Gifts and other Drain decks.  Also, it is an absolute bomb against Stax.

[rakso]

Setting up cow as a control element is pretty good, as it allows you to win the Mana war against Gifts and other Drain decks.

True enough, but I cut Library of Alexandria from my Gifts list, and I think a lot of players have done the same. Consider why.

[forests failed you]

I would never have considered library in a gifts list, it is apparent to me why it is bad.

[keratinx]

Nice article I must say! Many times when I'm brainstorming for ideas, I will always go back to the old school of the late 90s for resources. True enough, it does work. Gorilla Shaman have been eating moxen since its time of print and Swords to Plowsheres have been the main form of removal. Red E Blast made use of mana efficiently and Yawgmoth Will didn't just only win games.

In one section of the article regarding "crippling your opponent from mana", it highlighted a recent match-up in 2005 revolving the Gifts match-up. One with 2 mainboarded Shamans which allowed the player to gain tempo advantage by crippling his opponent's mana base. Sometimes I think, instead of playing around Drains, or draining opponent or even playing multiple REBs, a simple Shaman will do the trick by just denying your opponent of mana for solutions. Which is partyl why some tog lists play Shamans. To gain the tempo which was lost in the first few turns.

Another thing I want to highlight is the fragility of the mana base in the old traditional Keeper. As stated, with no basic lands back then, Keeper would be tore apart by B2Bs, Blood Moons and Crucible/Wasteland. Its solutions was the maindecked Island and Undiscovered Paradise for the mana to deal with Blood Moon and B2B respectively. Its evolution to 3 colour did eventually served to protect its mana base which I feel is an important aspect. If your playing without power to train your control skills, you'll know what I mean. Without Moxen, you feel the tempo lost due to Wasteland.

As said, Keeper didn't died. It just evolved into different Mana Drain archetypes which ran solutions. Be it Oath with mainboard Cunning Wishes or Gifts, Keeper's ideal still rest with the brokeness and speed of these new decks. The only difference is its defense was its best offense. TO WIN!

[orgcandman]

I would never have considered library in a gifts list, it is apparent to me why it is bad.

Would you care to elucidate? It's not so apparent to others.

Personally, I don't see how a free card drawer which wrecks control mirrors is bad. I've tried gifts both with and without library. I've found that without library, sure you get that extra basic or extra fetch, or maindeck deep analysis/reb. However, Library is a wrecking ball, as with either 4 gifts, or 4 thirst, your handsize will be steadily increasing to 7 cards, if it's not already. When I was playing without library, a lot of times in control mirrors, I would think to myself, "Gee, I sure wish I could be drawing some cards right now, since I know he's holding onto drain/force/tinker/etc.. and I'd like to sculpt the perfect hand." Library allows you to do this, for free.

I could be terrible, but I think that in a control deck that can reload it's hand fairly quickly, I think the burden of proof is on the person who is arguing for exclusion, rather than inclusion.

I have been playing a modified list of this deck a lot lately. And have won two pieces of power with it at local tournaments. It is a solid and competative list. I think that with more work and tweaking it could be one of the better decks in the format.

Would you be kind enough to post your list? I 100% agree with your post that 3/4 color lists are solid, competitive and strong. I've currently switched back to 4 colors to support shaman, reb main, and r&r and ftk side. At samites tournament, the only problem I found was that I went to UIDs too often (my final record was 2-0-3 drop).

I still disagree with your choice of Isochron Scepter. It's card disadvantage, which COULD become card advantage over a very long time, but with all the pithing needles running around, I'd rather not let it get to that. Further this by the fact that you can't imprint anything good unless you're running 4 colors (IE: Fire/Ice) unless you're looking to call immediate wrath on it (Would anyone sane let a scepter with drain/ancestral/brainstorm stick around?)

[forests failed you]

LOA is bad in Gifts because Gifts doesn't win via card advantage the way that Keeper does, it wins by accumulating a quality of cards advantage.  Gifs doesn't want to sit on seven cards in hand, it wants to play spells and force them through.

I have added Vamp to the maindeck in place of the second Cunning Wish, and replaced the sideboard Arcane Labs with Pithing Needles.

[Buttons]

Brassman ran LOA in his list, and he did well with it.

Personally, I'm a big fan of LOA in gifts.  It's won a bunch of games against my Ubastax because the Stax set at 1, and then 2, didn't affect them as much as I'd like it to.

He held on to his library, and I couldn't find a crucible OR A WASTE for the life of me to waste the thing, and he eventually won because he went broken-tinker game 1.

Granted, I game back and won games 2 and 3, but he still won game 1 because of LOA.

[Milton]

I thought I'd chime in here and maybe take this thread in a different direction.  I've been playing 3cc for quite some time and after a tremendous number of tournaments and endless hours of playtesting I can tell you all it's a difficult deck to build correctly.  I mentioned a while back that this deck needs to be far more redundant and focused and less cute.  My conclusions, after countless hours, are as such...

1) Mana denial is extremely good right now.  I cannot immagine a fate worse than letting an opponent use a Workshop or Bazzar unhindered right now.  Wastelands are soooo good. 

2) Gorilla Shaman is the 2nd best creature in the game, behind Welder.  Play as many Shaman as you can!

3) Cunning Wish is too slow, it doesn't allow for a sideboard full of hate and it greatly disrupts the flow of your own disruption.  It took me a long time to realize that Cunning Wish was sub-par, but once I did I haven't gone back.

4) Tinker-Colossus is simply the best win condition in the game. 

5) White can't disrupt like Red can.  The correct color combination for 3cc, in my opinion, is U/B/r.

6) You can't win a game unless you can deal with Welder all the time.

7) Pithing Needle is dissapointing.

After comming to these conclusions, I built my deck as such.  It relies heavily on tutors and card drawing, but is very redundant.  It's also got a board packed full of hate.

Mana:
5 Fetch
3 Islands
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Islands
4 Wastelands
1 Stripmine
5 Moxes
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

4 Skeletal Scrying
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk
1 Yag Will

1 Tinker
1 Mystical
1 Vampiric
1 Demonic

4 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible

1 Platinum Angel
1 Darksteel Collosus
3 Gorilla Shaman

Board:
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Red Blast
1 Gorilla Shaman


Explosives is just awesome.  It kills creatures, helps control an opponents mana base, it destroys pesky enchantments like Oath (land-mox-explosives for 2 is a great turn 1 play against Oath).  It's just a phenomonal card.  Very flexible and very redundant.

Sure, you lose Plow and Decree.  I never liked Decree anyway.  It's too slow.  Plow is a great catch-all card, but it isn't the best card for dealing with creatures in this meta. 

[MaxxMatt]

Against which you are going to win with multiple E.E/Shamans on board/hand.

They all shine in quality and not in quantity
Add drawers or wishes and the deck would kill far more easier

I like the lack of white, because I think ( as you ) that it has a toughter impact on the game.


Maxx

[orgcandman]

1) Mana denial is extremely good right now.  I cannot immagine a fate worse than letting an opponent use a Workshop or Bazzar unhindered right now.  Wastelands are soooo good. 

That's true, but is it worth further dilution of the mana base? Maybe in some metagames, but in a metagame full of CS, gifts, oath and other decks packing plenty of basics, I'd much rather have a consistent mana base.

2) Gorilla Shaman is the 2nd best creature in the game, behind Welder.  Play as many Shaman as you can!

Agreed

3) Cunning Wish is too slow, it doesn't allow for a sideboard full of hate and it greatly disrupts the flow of your own disruption.  It took me a long time to realize that Cunning Wish was sub-par, but once I did I haven't gone back.

Actually, I'm still playing one, just because there are always great solutions that I have. I don't have a fully wishable board or anything, but even grabbing disenchant eot is amazing.

4) Tinker-Colossus is simply the best win condition in the game. 

There's a HUGE difference between the fastest creature based and the best.

5) White can't disrupt like Red can.  The correct color combination for 3cc, in my opinion, is U/B/r.

Here's a point of strong contention I have.
What red gets you that white doesn't get you:
- Red Blast
- Rack and Ruin
- Shaman
- Fire/Ice

What white gets you that red doesn't:
- BALANCE
- Serenity
- Sacred Ground
- Decree of Justice
- Swords to Plowshares

I think the overwhelming ones are Balance, sacred ground, and decree. I'll explain why decree is so good later.

6) You can't win a game unless you can deal with Welder all the time.

Welder is useless already when you're running shaman. If you're that worried about him, you could run
swords
dart
fire/ice
oh and.....

7) Pithing Needle is dissapointing.

woah, what?! Needle is pretty amazing right now with uba stax so prevalent, and it's another card that deals with welder.
PLUS it protects you from stax when they start attacking your mana base, and it's not completely dead vs. gifts running vault/belcher.

After comming to these conclusions, I built my deck as such.  It relies heavily on tutors and card drawing, but is very redundant.  It's also got a board packed full of hate.
...
Explosives is just awesome.  It kills creatures, helps control an opponents mana base, it destroys pesky enchantments like Oath (land-mox-explosives for 2 is a great turn 1 play against Oath).  It's just a phenomonal card.  Very flexible and very redundant.

Sure, you lose Plow and Decree.  I never liked Decree anyway.  It's too slow.  Plow is a great catch-all card, but it isn't the best card for dealing with creatures in this meta. 

Explosives is good, but 4?! I'm pretty sure that by blowing this 4 times, you'll have accomplished nothing. Honestly, once should be enough, and I have hours of testing to back me up on this. If you're playing your explosives immediately, you're not playing 4cc correctly.

Decree is not too slow. Decree is just fine. It's a win condition that has no investment. Tinker requires that you invest mana in your main phase, and it requires that you sacrifice an artifact. Now, obviously, it's effect is super broken. But still, it does have significant costs on say, turn 1 through turn 5. All it takes is 1 bounce spell, 1 swords, 1 welder, and your tinker just cost you the game. Decree just sits in your hand until the end of your opponents turn, after you've developed a solid mana base, and says "Oh oops! You also have a clock to deal with. Oh, and I didn't even lose a card."

Plow is a great catch-all card, but it isn't the best card for dealing with creatures in this meta.

EXCUSE ME!? Plow is the BEST creature removal we have available. It deals with tinker->colossus. It deals with welders. It deals with shaman. It deals. With all of them. No exceptions (well, pristine angel, and plated slagwurm...but c'mon).

Also, how is it that you've managed to build a multi-colored control list without library, or lotus petal. I can see not using petal, but no library? Scrying will make it go active in a heartbeat, so there's no reason NOT to use it.

[Milton]

First, let me say that I'm sure that we have serious disagreements as to the nature of control.  That's fine.  I'll try to explain my thought process here and we can perhaps for a consensus.  Perhaps not, but it's still fun to discuss.

1) Mana denial - you stated that it dilutes the mana base.  I disagree.  26 sources, counting Wastes/Strip, in a 3cc deck is fine.  I have no problems with the mana base. 

2) We agree on Shaman.  Good.

3) Cunning Wish causes a major bastardization of the board.  When do you wish?  Do you waste a Tutor on Wish instead of Tutoring for Tinker or Will?  I can only immagine a few situations where Tutoring for Wish would be better than Tutoring for Tinker or Will.  In fact, I seet his as being sooo rare that I just don't run Wish.  It's not worth giving up the board slots for such a narrow purpose.  We might have to disagree on this.

Quote from: Milton on Yesterday at 03:15:02 PM
4) Tinker-Colossus is simply the best win condition in the game. 

There's a HUGE difference between the fastest creature based and the best.

4) I don't understand your point, here...

Quote from: Milton on Yesterday at 03:15:02 PM
5) White can't disrupt like Red can.  The correct color combination for 3cc, in my opinion, is U/B/r.

Here's a point of strong contention I have.
What red gets you that white doesn't get you:
- Red Blast
- Rack and Ruin
- Shaman
- Fire/Ice

What white gets you that red doesn't:
- BALANCE
- Serenity
- Sacred Ground
- Decree of Justice
- Swords to Plowshares

I think the overwhelming ones are Balance, sacred ground, and decree. I'll explain why decree is so good later.

5) Again, we disagree.  The rando Tinker/Collosus isn't reason enough to run White for Swords.  In fact, at my last tournament I lost to far more Welders than I did Colossossossusses.  Fire/Ice is just fine against Welder.  Sure, Swords is great, but it's not worth going up to 4cc and wrecking the mana base.  Yeah, Balance is awesome.  It gets you out of a jam big time, but not worth it for a 4cc mana base.

I see the meta as being one in which decks quickly build resources by drawing cards or casting extremely good spells, then, after quickling building up, decks simply "go off".  Balance doesn't do much in that situation except to stall the "build-up" phase.  Balance kills Welders v. Stacks.  It doesn't do much against Oath.  Again, it's great in the control mirror, but that match isn't common.  Sure, Balance is great against Food Chains too, but 4 EE can handle Food Chains pretty well.  And with 3 Gorilla Shaman, I usually can't Balance away their Welders because we both have a creature in play.

And Decree is not optimal.  It's slow and takes time to develop.  By the time you are casting Decree for three or four, you should have already won the game or your opponent should be so locked down that you can kill him with anything.  It's not worth cutting red for Decree.

Shaman, Rack and Ruin and Red Blast are just toooooo good right now.  Look at the meta!  Granted, I'd like a disenchant effect for Oath, but EE does fine.

Quote from: Milton on Yesterday at 03:15:02 PM
6) You can't win a game unless you can deal with Welder all the time.

Welder is useless already when you're running shaman. If you're that worried about him, you could run

Again, I disagree.  Welder is sneaky.  A good opponent doesn't just have to sacrafice Moxes.  They have all kinds of artifacts they can throw away to get whatever they need from the graveyard.  Workshop provides an opponent with a 3cc artifact turn 1 that can be Welded early in the game before Shaman can deal with that artifact.  You need to be able to deal with Welder at any point in the game, either with a counter or with some other control measure (EE for 1 does the job, so does Fire/Ice or even Crypt).

7) We disagree on Pithing Needle. 

Explosives is good, but 4?! I'm pretty sure that by blowing this 4 times, you'll have accomplished nothing. Honestly, once should be enough, and I have hours of testing to back me up on this. If you're playing your explosives immediately, you're not playing 4cc correctly.

I'm not playing 4cc at all.  I'm playing 3cc.  Perhaps I'm not playing it correctly, but you'll just have to assume that I am and that I know how to play.  The argument is about deckbuilding, anyway.

Look, if you are going to play a deck with a bunch of Tutors and One-of's (one Shaman, one Decree, one Explosives, one Cunning Wish, for example), why wouldn't you play Gifts?  It's much better and has much better cards.  I don't want to play Gifts.  I want to DISRUPT Gifts with my Shaman, wastes, Explosives and Crypts.

As for the EE.  You need 3 or 4 so you can reliably use them on turn 1 or 2 of almost every game.  One is not enough to deal with the large and diverse number of threats out there.  EE is like a Shaman, in a way.  A turn 1 Shaman, and your opponent holds his Moxes in his hand.  EE is the same way.  You cast it for 2 against Oath or Dragon and they sit with Oath or Animate in their hands until they can deal with the EE.  Set it for 1 against Stax and they hold their Welders until they can deal with it.  It allows you to DISRUPT their early game plan so you can Waste, Strip, Shaman your way to significantly throwing their early build-up phase off (pushing back the Clock, as I like to call it).  This doesn't allow them to "go off" as they would perhaps like to.  It allows you to draw enough cards so when they try to "go off", you can counter or hate them into a losing situation.

And I would love to fit Library in, but with Wastes the mana base can't handle it right now.

[Pave]

Orgcandman, I'd very much like to see your list.  Would you mind posting it?

Vroman recently wrote that Viashino Heretic is most effective against UbaStax (in the stax mirror).  Could a combination of Sacred Ground and Viashino Heretic (and not the conventional Rack and Ruin, from which Vroman can recover) be the most effective sideboard bombs in this match-up?  It is multi-coloured control's most difficult, in my experience.

[orgcandman]

1) Mana denial - you stated that it dilutes the mana base.  I disagree.  26 sources, counting Wastes/Strip, in a 3cc deck is fine.  I have no problems with the mana base. 

The problem comes with the fact that you're running only 14 colored sources that matter. Of those, 6 are hit by wastelands. That means you effectively have 8 colored sources to rely on. For a deck that wants to sit tight and play the long game, you're already in a losing position vs. strip effects.

3) Cunning Wish causes a major bastardization of the board.  When do you wish?  Do you waste a Tutor on Wish instead of Tutoring for Tinker or Will?  I can only immagine a few situations where Tutoring for Wish would be better than Tutoring for Tinker or Will.  In fact, I seet his as being sooo rare that I just don't run Wish.  It's not worth giving up the board slots for such a narrow purpose.  We might have to disagree on this.

Yeah, I definately disagree here. I don't use c-wish as some insane tutor that I need a wishable board for. It's more of a way to make scrying less painful. Suppose my first turn was something like fetch->island, mox, ancestral, mox jet, sol ring. Lets say I'm holding a cunning wish in my hand. A scrying for 2 right now could win me the game. I'll see 2 more cards, AND be able to get back the ancestral. That means I'll have seen 5 cards on turn 1, with the potential to see 4 cards (counting draw) on turn 2. Obviously, that's an extreme example, but wish allows you to be more comfortable with your scryings.

4) I don't understand your point, here...

The objectively best win condition in the game is one that wins on the spot, and can't be trumped. Something like storm kill. Colossus is hardly the best win condition because of sooo much easy to use 1 mana answers. Chain of Vapors, swords, welder, innocent blood, just to name a few. I think green is the only color without a 1 mana answer. Regardless, it's very easy to run something like chain, or swords, or welder. With so much stax and CS around, welder is pretty much bound to show up.

Quote from: Milton on Yesterday at 03:15:02 PM
5) White can't disrupt like Red can.  The correct color combination for 3cc, in my opinion, is U/B/r.

Here's a point of strong contention I have.
What red gets you that white doesn't get you:
- Red Blast
- Rack and Ruin
- Shaman
- Fire/Ice

What white gets you that red doesn't:
- BALANCE
- Serenity
- Sacred Ground
- Decree of Justice
- Swords to Plowshares

I think the overwhelming ones are Balance, sacred ground, and decree. I'll explain why decree is so good later.

5) Again, we disagree.  The rando Tinker/Collosus isn't reason enough to run White for Swords.  In fact, at my last tournament I lost to far more Welders than I did Colossossossusses.  Fire/Ice is just fine against Welder.  Sure, Swords is great, but it's not worth going up to 4cc and wrecking the mana base.  Yeah, Balance is awesome.  It gets you out of a jam big time, but not worth it for a 4cc mana base.

I see the meta as being one in which decks quickly build resources by drawing cards or casting extremely good spells, then, after quickling building up, decks simply "go off".  Balance doesn't do much in that situation except to stall the "build-up" phase.  Balance kills Welders v. Stacks.  It doesn't do much against Oath.  Again, it's great in the control mirror, but that match isn't common.  Sure, Balance is great against Food Chains too, but 4 EE can handle Food Chains pretty well.  And with 3 Gorilla Shaman, I usually can't Balance away their Welders because we both have a creature in play.

And Decree is not optimal.  It's slow and takes time to develop.  By the time you are casting Decree for three or four, you should have already won the game or your opponent should be so locked down that you can kill him with anything.  It's not worth cutting red for Decree.

Balance reads more than just "OMG Wrath for 2." Against stax, I use it to nuke lands, and put them into topdeck mode. I'll board it out if I have to. Against oath, again, it won't end akroma or razia/sotn/colossus/whatever, but it's great to go "Oh, umm, end of your turn, I'll mystical for balance, and balance on my turn, good luck with less cards, scrying for the win" and that's a deck where I agree that balance is not as good.
Setting up devastating balances/mind twists/wills are how 3/4cc win.

Shaman, Rack and Ruin and Red Blast are just toooooo good right now.  Look at the meta!  Granted, I'd like a disenchant effect for Oath, but EE does fine.

There's no reason why you can't run red along with white.

Quote from: Milton on Yesterday at 03:15:02 PM
6) You can't win a game unless you can deal with Welder all the time.

Welder is useless already when you're running shaman. If you're that worried about him, you could run

Again, I disagree.  Welder is sneaky.  A good opponent doesn't just have to sacrafice Moxes.  They have all kinds of artifacts they can throw away to get whatever they need from the graveyard.  Workshop provides an opponent with a 3cc artifact turn 1 that can be Welded early in the game before Shaman can deal with that artifact.  You need to be able to deal with Welder at any point in the game, either with a counter or with some other control measure (EE for 1 does the job, so does Fire/Ice or even Crypt).

so, wait, running 3 and 2cc solutions to welder (EE and fire/ice) are optimal, but swords, which also hits colossus/karn/titan/something else is not? EE can hit other things too, yes, but it's expensive for it's effect. You need to have the colors, and you need to have the colors + 2.

Explosives is good, but 4?! I'm pretty sure that by blowing this 4 times, you'll have accomplished nothing. Honestly, once should be enough, and I have hours of testing to back me up on this. If you're playing your explosives immediately, you're not playing 4cc correctly.

I'm not playing 4cc at all.  I'm playing 3cc.  Perhaps I'm not playing it correctly, but you'll just have to assume that I am and that I know how to play.  The argument is about deckbuilding, anyway.

ok, I meant to say 3/4cc. Anyway, I stand by my point. It's not an issue of functionality, it's an issue of time and mana. Sure, you can drop one for 1/2 early, and that's good. I'm not saying it's somehow bad. I _am_ saying that investing the 5+ mana over the course of a few turns to get the same effect you could get with a cheaper solution is insane. 3/4cc is all about it's answers. Those answers HAVE to be mana efficient. It's a bonus if they're also very card efficient.

Look, if you are going to play a deck with a bunch of Tutors and One-of's (one Shaman, one Decree, one Explosives, one Cunning Wish, for example), why wouldn't you play Gifts?  It's much better and has much better cards.  I don't want to play Gifts.  I want to DISRUPT Gifts with my Shaman, wastes, Explosives and Crypts.

Gifts isn't about playing 1-ofs. It's about setting up inevitable board position. It races to a stable board state on it's side. It's advantage is that it can randomly win off an unstable board.
3/4cc are all about disrupting your opponents gameplan such that they are constantly on an unstable board. THAT'S why I play multi-colored control. I can actually outplay my opponent rather than just racing.

As for the EE.  You need 3 or 4 so you can reliably use them on turn 1 or 2 of almost every game.  One is not enough to deal with the large and diverse number of threats out there.  EE is like a Shaman, in a way.  A turn 1 Shaman, and your opponent holds his Moxes in his hand.  EE is the same way.  You cast it for 2 against Oath or Dragon and they sit with Oath or Animate in their hands until they can deal with the EE.  Set it for 1 against Stax and they hold their Welders until they can deal with it.  It allows you to DISRUPT their early game plan so you can Waste, Strip, Shaman your way to significantly throwing their early build-up phase off (pushing back the Clock, as I like to call it).  This doesn't allow them to "go off" as they would perhaps like to.  It allows you to draw enough cards so when they try to "go off", you can counter or hate them into a losing situation.

ok, look, EE seems like a great card, and I've run 1 to some success. But it's SOOO cost prohibitive. When I want an answer to something, I want it now, right away, immediately. The reason is, usually, if your opponent drops a threat, it's a must-answer. Welder isn't a threat, he's a nuissance. Once the opponent thirsts, though, I want an immediate answer to welder. Paying 3 is slow. Paying 2 is less slow, but doable. Paying 1 or even 0 is awesome.

And I would love to fit Library in, but with Wastes the mana base can't handle it right now.

Yet another reason why wastes make your mana base unstable.
And no one said you had to run 5 strip effects.

As for decree, I still don't understand your "it's slow" argument. Especially when you argue for EE, which is equally slow. When you have the 4+ mana to activate ee, you could also be putting a dude on the board, and drawing a card. Granted, ee is situationally better than 1 soldier token and 1 card. However, there can be nothing that compares with a win condition that comes online at the end of your opponents turn 4, doesn't require that you tap out in your mainphase, AND draws you card while putting on pressure.

As for my list:

//lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria

//artifact mana
1 black lotus
1 sol ring
1 mox sapphire
1 mox ruby
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
1 mox pearl
1 lotus petal

//win condiitions
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Decree of Justice

//control/disruption
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

//Card Draw
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Skeletal Scrying
4 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk
1 Cunning Wish

//Cards that should say 'I WIN'
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

I have some notes to myself on this list too such as:
"Want to fit in 2nd shaman"
"reb needs to change depending on meta..ie- meta slot"
"mystical needs to become vamp. probably"
etc..

[Milton]

Well, orgcandman, after seeing your response and looking at your decklist, we just have fundamenatally different ways of looking at control.  Most of your logic is sound, but I feel it is outdated.  I also I feel your deck is somewhat random.  I mean no disrespect in saying so, of course.  Your arguments, though, are quite situational and perhaps don't represent true "in game" situations.

Your example of using Cunning Wish to get back a card lost to Scrying is a great example.  The synergy between the two cards is great, and is something I explored at length six months ago.  But such a strategy should be done with multiple Cunning Wishes and a sideboard option that takes advantage of the versitality of the cards.  One lone Cunning Wish seems random and very situational.  In your example, you are first turn Ancestraling, then Scrying, Wishing, and Ancestraling again over the next couple of turns.  Very, very situational, and not a reason to run one Wish.  A side note; I don't understand how you can power-up multiple Scryings early with only 4 Fetchlands and no Wastes.

Look, you run 2 Plows, 2 Pithing Needles.  I run 4 Engineered Explosives.  Both of us can deal with Welders.  I feel, though, that the 4 EE sets me up for a better long game with more a versitaile card.  One Plow kills one Welder.  One EE sweeps the board of 1cc spells.  Still, if I were playing white, I would run Plow.  I don't blame you for doing so, I just disagree that 4cc is better than 3cc.

You have 1 Cunning Wish, 1 Red Blast, 2 Swords, 2 Duresses, 2 Needles and 1 Shaman maindeck.  Genearlly, when I see a decklist like that I kinda assume a deck is trying to do way too much and, as a result, won't be doing anything very well.  All of these cards are situational "bombs".  Shaman just owns a lot of decks right now.  Duress is great in a pinch.  Needle can shut down an entire deck strategy.  Still, you have so many 1 and 2 of's with these situational cards that I don't see you having what you need when you need it.  I see an opponent laying a Bazzar and you not having the Needle, instead having the Plow or Duress in hand.  I see an opponent playing a Uba Mask and you don't have the Shaman or Wish, you have a Red Blast in hand instead.  I see an opponent playing a Echoing Truth on your tokens, and you have a Plow or Needle instead of your Red Blast.  There is nothing like having the exact card you need when you need it, but with 1 and 2 of's, that just isn't likely.  Vamp makes this a little less sketchy.  You certianly should have Vamp maindeck.  Also, if using Balance for devestating board advantage is your style, then you should definately be running Vamp so you can Balance early.

And Lotus Petal?  To me, that should be Fetchland #5.  Especially in a 4cc deck.

Look, I appreciate your comments and insight.  I just see your deck as being extremely flawed (as I'm sure you do about mine).  We just have fundamental disagreements about 3/4cc right now.