Wizards of the Coast...Do they actually test their own game???

[Cjkory]

Im not sure if anyone else has notice, but Wizards has basically brought back the dual lands in Ravnica: City of Guilds. They are exact copies of dual lands, but they come into play tapped if you dont pay 2 life. They even are still considered island/swamp  etc... So how badly does everyone think this will affect Vintage. I mean come on 2 life isn't that bad for another dual land.

[And11]

I don't think that anyone, exept players on som strange budget, will be playing the new "duals" in Vintage. Which deck would even consider running more than four of the same duals? I can't think of one...

[Vander]

People tend to go away from the 4-of-that-Dual anyways, because of the danger of getting srewed by Wastelands. So why making our decks even more vulnerable...

[Cjkory]

The only I could probably ever see is Fish and even so not really. My point though is that is where there is potential. Being able to play 8 of the same dual lands...seems like a dream. Its gotta open up some new roads for a deck. I wanna find out so I have a new deck to start up vintage again with. T2 is pretty boring (though actually playing kird apes is T2 sounds fun)

[Cjkory]

More vulnerable...HA think about it. You play 4 anyways. 4 wastes=4 duals. They can wipe out all you duals. At least you would have some left over. Plus if you so worried about it being vulnerable than dont run regular dual lands. Run basic. You get what Im saying. Obviously if your up against someone running crucibles its bad. But otherwise...

[zEphytoes]

Its not just wasteland.  Have you read Back to Basics?  Blood Moon?  Random hosers that hit even more of your lands are bad.  Plus, decks with Crucibles are doing pretty well, last time I checked, so that generally means that there are going to be more Crucibles around.

[warble]

Oh dear, these lands have a big impact on the metagame because they increase the availability of the dual-land tweak.  Specifically, if I were running a suicidal version of CS with no basics, I would be able to run all duals now.  If I run Tog, I can also make that tweak.  The availability of more suicidal gameplans (suicidal = vulnerability to hate like aforementioned Back to Basics and Blood Moon) makes it possible for players to absolutely dominate a Top8 if they know the hate will be gone by then.  Personally, I prefer basic lands because I fear the hate in the NorthEast.  If I were trying to win something like...a full set of Beta Power 9 for example...I think I'd probably be vulnerable to the hate because I'd rather have that vulnerability then be vulnerable to mana screw by my own deck.

[zEphytoes]

Yes, in a field where there is no more nonbasic hate then some Wastelands, these lands are amazing.  But with Workshop decks (especially Stax) gaining more popularity, that means more crucibles.  A Crucible and a Wasteland is bad enough when almost all of your lands are nonbasic, but if you throw a Smokestack in the mix, you can pretty much scoop right there.

Only time will tell if these lands will be good or not.

[EnialisLiadon]

Oh geez, these just made painlands obsolete!!!

Oh, wait.  Painlands suck.  We don't need time to tell us whther or not these will be good.  Old duals > new duals.  And having both makes your manabase very vulnerable to hate which is kind of a bad thing.

[J J P]

IMHO these additional dual lands serve Vintage in more than one way. They might render quite a number of interesting cards and deck types playable. With 8 duals you finally can use cards with double-colored casting costs. Will there be more decks using only two colors? Not being forced to spend 70€ on a playset of duals will lower the entry barrier for new players. 

[Null Rob]

Oh geez, these just made painlands obsolete!!!

Oh, wait. Painlands suck. We don't need time to tell us whther or not these will be good. Old duals > new duals. And having both makes your manabase very vulnerable to hate which is kind of a bad thing.

Actually, these do not in any way make painlands obsolete in T1.  The only decks that use painlands play with Sundering Titan, and these new dual lands still count as their respective basic land types, so they have the same terrible synergy with Titan as old duals do.  These lands from Ravnica should not in any way effect the number of painlands played in T1.

[Lunar]

@ J J P

what makes you think these lands (at least the quality ones in T2 and Extended) wont be every bit as expensive as normal duals at least for a while...

Look at how much some top level T2 cards go for right now...

Cards like pithing needle, jitte, C.Extraction etc etc etc all are very high priced...

Im willing to bet that the hype on them alone will drive their price sky high for a while...

With these cards not only helping entry level T1 players, but obviously legacy, extended, and T2 and Block what makes you think these cards will be at all affordable...

The thing it garunties though is that they will be more availible....not cheaper (at least not a few of them) but more accesable...not everybody can just go get a playset of underground seas...

[Methuselahn]

I think that these new lands are just wonderful.  What it means is that type 2 players will get these for their type 2 decks, and thus, hopefully be able to crossover and compete in Vintage, albeit with a penalty.  Fortunately for me, I won't have to use them, but they are definately usable in a pinch, especially when you gotta make a deck and your proxy slots are maxed out.

[PipOC]

IMHO these additional dual lands serve Vintage in more than one way. They might render quite a number of interesting cards and deck types playable. With 8 duals you finally can use cards with double-colored casting costs. Will there be more decks using only two colors? Not being forced to spend 70€ on a playset of duals will lower the entry barrier for new players. 

What cards that cost bb, rr, gg, or ww would you want to play that you couldn't already with a standard dual/fetch manabase?

[Anusien]

Current decks manage to pull off astounding color requirements.  Look at the most recent Gifts.Smmenen list that pulls off UU for Drain, often multiple sources of red in the same turn for Recoup and Burning Wish and black for Yawgmoth's Will, and it does it while still running 5 basics to play mono-blue against Wasteland heavy decks.  Many of the current decks with strict mana requirements (like WTF, especially WTF/w) don't have to resort to painlands, and the first build of WTF didn't even run 4 Tropical Islands.  Considering how light on land most decks are anyway, I don't think many decks will find the need to fetch 5 duals, especially when after they assure their colored mana base, most decks start fetching basic lands.

[Revvik]

These will probably have the biggest effect on Extended, where they have the Ravnica and Invasion card pools to pull from, Onslaught fetchlands, and a lack of Wastelands.
Definitely not overpowered.  2 life isn't bad at all.
And these likely weren't printed to supplement the duals in your existing deck - they were probably also done as a replacement due to the low availability of even Revised duals, which could hurt the new(ish) Legacy format.

[Das_Boot]

Jumping on the bandwagon, they realy won't have that big an impact on T1.  They will help Extended and Standard, which went from having City of Brass as the best 2-color land to having these AND painlands, probably shifting the environment from a huge majority of mono-colored decks to an environment with lots of 2 and 3 color decks.

By the way, bashing Wizards, R&D, the DCI, etc. is out of vogue now.  It is widely acknowledged that they do a good job.

[tidal kraken]

I might as well jump on the bandwagon.

I don't think they will have a huge impact on Vintage. Budget players will rejoice, but for whoever already has full sets of duals (or even some duals), I don't see these being played much.

I think they will have a big impact on Extended though, but thats a debate for another place.

I don't see these going for more than $10-15, personally, for reason Hi-Val said on my team's forums.

Seriously, these are NOT going to be more than $20. It just isn't going to work that way. If there are 4 lands that run for $20+ as well as some other chase cards, then boxes will be torn open and sold so fast that the price will plummet again. Look at all the hot rares you know of in the last few years even. Cranial and Needle hit $25 and only briefly. They were also that expensive because it wasn't worth it to crack packs for money cards.

Ravnica looks like a set very much geared towards cracking packs for cash, so I forsee the value of these cards to be $8-12 tops. Again, fetchlands were playable in every format and Delta never got above $12.

I think they may soar in price for a little while, bu come down quickly.


I do love the artwork on the one they previewed.

[M.Solymossy]

[alban]

Honestly, I think Wizards has done a good job with printing these. Does anyone sees a negative effect of these cards?
I also think that Ravnica is going to be one of the best T2 series ever. Lots of good cards, without being overpowered. And you van crack open boosters, with a reasonable chance to make serious profit /get really playable cards 

[Ocat]

These lands will, as stated by other people in this thread, lower the entrybarrier a bit. Also stated before, it might make new decktypes possible. And there are just more duallands availible. might that not point to the exact opposite of the topic title, that WOTC tests their new content quite well? IMHO its a very good idea to redo not-too-powerful popular t1 cards

[Revvik]

dick 
And since when was there ever a "Hate WotC" bandwagon?

Negative effect of these cards: If control decks opt to run these, aggro strategies have another upper hand via more effective Wastelands or a headstart on the damage race.

[Limbo]

dick 
And since when was there ever a "Hate WotC" bandwagon?

Negative effect of these cards: If control decks opt to run these, aggro strategies have another upper hand via more effective Wastelands or a headstart on the damage race.

And aggro becoming a bit stronger is bad because ... ? It is not that goblins and juggernauts are dominating the environment at the moment.

[M.Solymossy]

[Jacob Orlove]

Once was cute, if inappropriate. Twice is just spam. This thread seems to have run its course.