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Author Topic: Digging up the past: B/R schools of thought now and then  (Read 1836 times)
Yare
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« on: August 22, 2005, 10:39:29 am »

Quite a while ago, Aaron Forsythe contacted TheManaDrain asking for input concerning what might/should be done to the B/R list.  That article, dated February 21, 2003, can be found here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/133

For easy reference, the following suggestions did occur:

1) Unrestrict Recall
2) Unrestrict Hurkyl's Recall
5) Separate the t1 and t1.5 lists
6) "Other" unrestrictions
9) Allow Portal cards (announced, not implemented yet)

The following did not occur:

3) Errata specific cards (such as WGD, Illusions of Grandeur, etc.)
4) Ban Tolarian Academy
7) Changes regarding the restriction of Necropotence
8) Restrict Mishra's Workshop
10) Do nothing

So I guess some questions might be: Have our thoughts, in general, changed about the philosophy behind the B/R list, if at all?  Were we headed in the right direction then?  And, following that, are we headed in the right direction now?  Or, is this article completely moot now because it wasn't written well then or because we simply have a far better understand of how things should be now as compared to then?

Personally, I feel like we've been doing pretty well, especially in retrospect of this article.  The unrestrictions thus far (Recall, Hurkyl's Recall, Berserk, Doomsday, Earthcraft, Fork, Stroke of Genius, Braingeyser, might be others) seem to have been very good decisions in that none of those cards are really breaking the format (or even seeing play).  The separation of the t1 and t1.5 lists has obviously been a very good decision, as it has caused a huge amount of interest in the Legacy format (and how even has a PTQ for that format, something completely unthought of at the time).  How good the legalization of Portal will be remains to be soon, but I feel that overall it will be a good decision.

Regarding the things that were not done, I feel like the call to ban Tolarian Academy is of the most interest.  To suggest such today would not make sense, as Academy, broken as it is, is not really distorting the format at this time.  The other ideas have been discussed at length and I don't really want to start a flame war/discussion of what should and should not be banned or restricted here (since I'm sure there will be the obligatory discussion thread a few days before the end of this month), so I won't comment on them here (although that's not to say that others can't do so).

Let me emphasize again that this is NOT a thread to discuss the upcoming changes (if any) to the B/R list; it is an examination of philosophy now and then, possibly in the context of today.  In essence, try to walk the fine line.
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Machinus
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2005, 11:04:58 am »

I think we know now that banning isn't ever realistically going to happen. The most important thing at this point in time is to determine what really deserves to be on the list, and unrestrict as many cards as is healthy. Everyone's criterion for restriction have changed, including the DCI's and ours, but the implementaion of these changes has not yet occured.
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2005, 07:37:50 pm »

Personally I find that the things they did, though really not affecting the format very much aside from thinning out the list, was a good thing, and about the only thing that really needed to be done.  Cards that shouldn't have been on the list were taken off, and there really isn't anything that needs to be put on the list right now either.  Drains balance shops balance ect.  We have a nice symetrical healthy meta right now and it shouldn't really be tinkered with.  I do congratulate wizards on not making a card that has to be banned for power reasons, that really does show that they test the hell out of newer cards. 
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Mr. Fantazy
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2005, 11:53:09 pm »

One thing you left off your "did occur" list was the restriction of Trinisphere. In light of the fact that the new b/r announcement is approaching, the Vintage Champion was playing Stax in a field where early reports say 60% of the field was Slaver and Stax, plays right into your question.

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I would like to say that as far as policy goes - this demonstrates that they are willing to make changes on the basis of interaction - not dominance or distortion.
Time will tell if this was a mistake.


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I personally believe that combo will be running rampant because of this.


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MWS has lost infinite stock as a powerful card and it will become a Dark Rit vs. Mana Drain format.

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Before anyone says anything about "sphere or resistance is good"-they are wrong.  Sphere of Resistance is ABSOLUTE SHIT compared to 3sphere against storm combo decks.  Combo can now spend its 3 bounce spells main plus whatever was in the board towards winning the control matchup.  I feel a wave of combo coming over and the restriction of Dark Ritual in 3 months.


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I see further Bannings/Restrictions in 3 months. /vote me up one for mistake. In all honesty, maybe only 10-15% of the Vintage players were calling for 3spheres head, and those were probably the combo players.
Long Live Combo Summer! 




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And I can report that my combo decks actually didn't just die to Stax becuase I learned how to maximize my chances agianst 3sphere.  Now that I did that, do you think I will have any trouble against fourth tier lock components like Sphere of Resistence and Chalice of hte Void?



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They have restricted a card now in this format based on interaction concerns entirely, and not dominance or distortion.  If Workshop decks fall out of the format almost entirely, which given their trend on Sylvan's statistics is the logical prediction, the format will rapidly consolidate and shift.  Those shifts can lead to a restriction cascade.   I'm not saying they will, but there is good, rationale, logical reasons for suggesting that it might.  The risk is there.  I'm not saying it will happen immediately, but a decision has been made which could trigger long term ramifications that are not good.  We should be aware of those risks and realize them now so that we can monitor the outcome.


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However, the fact remains, like it or not, they did Restrict it.  And, now, the only thing we have to look forward to is a steady series of Restrictions as other cards have to be put in their place with the removal of Trinisphere.  This is, fortunately or unfortunately, the inevitability that we are left with now.  So, over the next year we're likely to see cards like Mana Drain, Dark Ritual and others that end up getting put on the Restricted list because of this.  With one of the "pillars" now gone, the remainder have to be adjusted as well.


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Now a lot of "Turn 0" Combo decks become absurd. Slaver (both builds) are absurd too. And two fine archetypes (Workshop Aggro and Stax) are quite dead, despite not behing dominating every single Top8. Sad.


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I'd just like to point out that in the future there will be very little evidence to support that this restriction was "wise".  This restriction is primarily a PR decision.  It was made without regard for the metagame, so any effect on the metagame will not justify it.  You'd have to poll those who complained to R&D/DCI to find out if they are happy next month.


I think, if anything, my belief that The DCI has a better grasp on things then alot of people give them credit for, is strengthened. They have made mistakes and probably will again, however, imho, they keep showing they understand what's going on and understand T1 pretty damn well.

The format seems healthy overall and I personally don't see anything that should change that, although the addition of Portal will be interesting. The basic philosophy of keeping the game fun and balanced seems to be working just fine and I hope it continues.

-Shawn
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 12:46:56 am by Mr. Fantazy » Logged

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prosbloom225
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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2005, 12:40:20 am »

The restricting of trinisphere needed to happen and doesn't even need to be listed.  But yes wizards do a damn good job at looking at the cards themselves, and not just listening to the community.  People wanted 3sphere to be unrestricted and others restricted, the right move was restriction, I haven't seem combo running rampant lately.  Wizards made the right choice there.  Now if they go and restrict shop, thats a whole different story....
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crazedpenguinman
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2005, 06:31:54 am »

I think Mr. Fantasy's point was that we, or any player, may have personal opinions, or make assumptions about what should or should not be, however more often than not the DCI know whats going on, they have their finger on the pulse. I agree, people complained about hypotheticals their arguments were void, nothing had happened.

Personally their are a whole lot of cards I would like to see restricted, but it's all based on personal hate of a card, not any real fact.
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2005, 08:32:05 am »

The DCI does a pretty darned good job. Keep in mind however that they did not predict the metagame post trinisphere. We feared combo as players, and built decks to combat the threat of combo specifically.

That said there are still plenty of cards that could come off the restircted list, but to what end? I don't think anyone has been brainstorming a savage voltaic key deck, nor will they. Who really cares if unplayable cards are on the restricted list from anything other than an esthetic point of view.

It would be kinda cool if the restricted list actually represented the most powerful cards in the current format, but there is no pressing need to tamper with it.

The same goes for future restrictions in my opinion. Only when a card has proven itself degenerate and format distorting, should it be considered for restriction. Mana drain and workshop are not format distorting, they are format defining. There is a pivitol difference in those two terms.

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Bastian
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2005, 08:58:46 am »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but by the time that article was written was Trinisphere printed already??

Doing "nothing" actually happened once in December 2004. They simply made no changes whatsoever to the B/R lists. I usually don't trust their judgement, and I was particulary sad with the changes to the type 1.5 list, but in the end it not only succeeded in making the format healthier (combo lives, unlike initially expected), it also made it a lot more popular!
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NastyNate
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2005, 09:36:49 am »

This article was published before berserk, recall, and hurkyl's recall came off the list, and while gush was still unrestricted. I think this was around the time that leigons was in print, but I may be off ever so slightly.
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