Katrina

[Klep]

The city is now under martial law.

[Magi]

Well fuck that city is no more.

A shame...

[Limbo]

This is exactly why a lot of people don't want to be evacuated, as they want to protect their houses from being looted. I wonder if the people looting those houses realise they killed thousands of people without ever having to pull a trigger...

[Ivantheterrible]

This is exactly why a lot of people don't want to be evacuated, as they want to protect their houses from being looted. I wonder if the people looting those houses realise they killed thousands of people without ever having to pull a trigger...

That's in no way true. Looters made a concious decision to loot while the owners of the houses made a concious decision to stay behind in anticapation of the looters. The later is influenced by the former but the Looters are not responsible for deaths and shouldn't be held responsible once this is all over. They didn't force the people to stay home and guard their material goods. Anyone who cares more about the material world then their own lives and the lives of their families friends and neigbors is a damn fool. You say the looters are responsible for casuing deaths because people stayed behind while if they knew they might die then why stay behind.This also means the looters are sticking their necks out.

Bottom line is everyone involved knows what is most likely going to happen and they all made their own concious decioins.

[49 Cents]

You have 2 types of looters: The ones who want to survive and the ones who just want to steal stuff.
I can imagine that people break in in supermarkets because they need food and things like diapers and stuff, but I cannot understand that people can take advantage of the situation by stealing 20 Playstations and the like.

Also, I feel like the TV gives a wrong impression of the looters. When I watched TV last night the pictures of looters where all the same: Black looters and Whites in line to actually buy stuff. How can this be true? I did not see a single white looter..

Does anybody knows anything about this?

[ProZachar]

You have 2 types of looters: The ones who want to survive and the ones who just want to steal stuff.
I can imagine that people break in in supermarkets because they need food and things like diapers and stuff, but I cannot understand that people can take advantage of the situation by stealing 20 Playstations and the like.

Also, I feel like the TV gives a wrong impression of the looters. When I watched TV last night the pictures of looters where all the same: Black looters and Whites in line to actually buy stuff. How can this be true? I did not see a single white looter..

Does anybody knows anything about this?

White people are, in general, better off economically and were more likely to have the means to evacuate.  Of all the pictures I've seen I think I saw one white family but about a dozen black families.

I'd bet money though that there is an element of racism in the coverage of the looting.

Before Katrina, 25% of the population of New Orleans lived in poverty.

[jpmeyer]

You have 2 types of looters: The ones who want to survive and the ones who just want to steal stuff.
I can imagine that people break in in supermarkets because they need food and things like diapers and stuff, but I cannot understand that people can take advantage of the situation by stealing 20 Playstations and the like.

Also, I feel like the TV gives a wrong impression of the looters. When I watched TV last night the pictures of looters where all the same: Black looters and Whites in line to actually buy stuff. How can this be true? I did not see a single white looter..

Does anybody knows anything about this?

White people are, in general, better off economically and were more likely to have the means to evacuate.  Of all the pictures I've seen I think I saw one white family but about a dozen black families.

I'd bet money though that there is an element of racism in the coverage of the looting.

Before Katrina, 25% of the population of New Orleans lived in poverty.

For anyone that hadn't already seen this

[Matt]

http://yahooracists.ytmnd.com/

[Rico Suave]

That's in no way true. Looters made a concious decision to loot while the owners of the houses made a concious decision to stay behind in anticapation of the looters. The later is influenced by the former but the Looters are not responsible for deaths and shouldn't be held responsible once this is all over. They didn't force the people to stay home and guard their material goods.

This doesn't make sense.  First of all, owner's of houses simply may have had no way to evacuate once they realized they didn't have the time to evacuate anymore.  Not everybody owns a car or has access to a means to travel several hundred miles.  That is a very real reason why people may still be in their houses.  I highly doubt that people actually care about protecting their homes from looters when their entire home is underwater and useless anyway.

Secondly, nobody forced the looters to break into homes and kill people either.  How is a person who goes around willingly killing other people not responsible for his/her own actions? 

[Limbo]

That's in no way true. Looters made a concious decision to loot while the owners of the houses made a concious decision to stay behind in anticapation of the looters. The later is influenced by the former but the Looters are not responsible for deaths and shouldn't be held responsible once this is all over. They didn't force the people to stay home and guard their material goods.

This doesn't make sense.  First of all, owner's of houses simply may have had no way to evacuate once they realized they didn't have the time to evacuate anymore.  Not everybody owns a car or has access to a means to travel several hundred miles.  That is a very real reason why people may still be in their houses.  I highly doubt that people actually care about protecting their homes from looters when their entire home is underwater and useless anyway.

Secondly, nobody forced the looters to break into homes and kill people either.  How is a person who goes around willingly killing other people not responsible for his/her own actions? 

@Ivan: While it may seem stupid to most people, there will most certainly be people that stayed in their houses to protect their house against looters. Maybe not just to "protect their stuff", but most people just don't like it when their home is entered by unknown people, be it to loot or not. It is very likely that a part of the people that died in the houses that were flooded were there to protect their homes, so indirectly, people looting can be viewed as responsible for their deaths. I am not saying that the looters should be sued or whatever for "killing people" once this is over.

The "choice" to stay was probably a combination of factors for a lot of the people that stayed (factors that come to mind are : no transportation / money / place to stay / house-protection / disbelief in hurricane strength / etc.) so I am by no means saying that looting is the only and most important one factor involved.

@Rico: The post from Ivan and me concerned people that might be killed indirectly (because of flooding, not because of bullets). Shooting someone obviously is an entirely different subject.

General question : what options were available for people that wanted to evacuate / be evacuated? How far in advance could / should one leave, and what were the requirements to be evacuated? What costs were / are involved?

[Ivantheterrible]

This doesn't make sense.  First of all, owner's of houses simply may have had no way to evacuate once they realized they didn't have the time to evacuate anymore.  Not everybody owns a car or has access to a means to travel several hundred miles.  That is a very real reason why people may still be in their houses.  I highly doubt that people actually care about protecting their homes from looters when their entire home is underwater and useless anyway.

Secondly, nobody forced the looters to break into homes and kill people either.  How is a person who goes around willingly killing other people not responsible for his/her own actions?

What I said made since for the post I was responding to. Limbo made it sould like people were staying back just because of looters, not because they were forced to. He claimed the looters were responsible for the people staying back, when in fact it was the looters actions that caused it and even then it was anticipation of the looters possible actions. Limbo also said that the looters were not actually killing people but that they were still responsible. I was agruing with his post for those reasons. What you siad makes since but what he said was rather different.

[Klep]

Actually the reason most people who didn't evacuate stayed behind was that they simply couldn't leave.  New Orleans has a large number of exceptionally impoverished citizens, many of whom are old or infirm, don't have cars, or both.  These people basically had the option of being stuck in the Superdome or stuck somewhere else, and many chose to stay in or were unable to leave their own homes, or holed up in areas that survived Camille.

On the subject of looting, a large number of people are only taking food, water, and vital medical supplies and that's perfectly fine in my opinion.  The real problem is the sick, inhuman bastards looting electronics, firearms, and other such things and then terrorizing people and shooting at rescue workers.

Thank God the military is finally moving in to establish order.  I'm one of the last people to support military intervention on our own soil, but desperate times call for desperate measures, and New Orleans is desperately in need of some order.

[Matt]

Why are they shooting at rescue workers? I mean I can understand the loosed prisoners not wanting to get reapprehended, but why would these people start fighting?

[dandan]

Over here in Slovakia they've been showing Katrina coverage for days. I'm rather surprised that Matt says that there wasn't much coverage (perhaps it counted as foreign news until it reached the coast).
I am amazed by the power of this hurricane especially as most people seem to agree that it could have been worse for NO. I've seen no reports from wherever took a direct hit, presumably there isn't much there to take pictures of.

If I wasn't an atheist, I'd be saying prayers for the people down there.

[Klep]

Why are they shooting at rescue workers? I mean I can understand the loosed prisoners not wanting to get reapprehended, but why would these people start fighting?

Well apparantly the hurricane also made them retarded.

[jpmeyer]

Don't forget class issues, either

[Matt]

That class thing is SO stupid. It's not like these people's low incomes or minority race attracted the storm to them. What's that? Poor people were less prepared for the storm? Well that's true of poor people in ANY situation. They're not reporting on it because there's nothing to report.

I'm rather surprised that Matt says that there wasn't much coverage

Well that's not exactly what I said. I was busy this weekend, and I just didn't hear any coverage of it until like the day before it made landfall. I never heard of Tropical Storm Katrina being upgraded into Hurricane Katrina, or anything like that.

And anyway, there has been huge coverage since it hit.

[nataz]

thats because for the longest time it was barely a hurricane.

It wasn't until after it crossed FL that it became huge. Honestly we are lucky it wasn't a 5 when it hit, or it would have been worse.

I know some people in Mississippi that managed to get out, and it amazes me when they tell me that a lot of people just didn't think it would be this bad, and that they could stay and ride it out.


i dunno about anyone else, but everytime I see actual pictures of this, I feel like I need to go help or something. I've spent the last four years of my life working on public safety and rescue boats, and watching what is going on down there is heartbreaking. Everyone that I know that is on scene is relaying that there is just mass confusion, and almost no reliable communication between rescue groups. Not because people aren't trying, but because there are no more power lines, no more cell phone towers, and everyone is working on separate radio systems.

no communication between groups means that there may be a rescue boat crew waiting, but no one can tell them where to go unless they are face to face.

ugh

[Bram]

OK, Dutch media have turned around 180 degrees on their coverage, too, in the last couple of days. It seems this has turned from a nasty storm to hell on earth. What really surprised me was how the disaster area is seven times larger than my country. An immense area, deprived of everything the upper half of our world takes for granted, immersed in both total lawlessness and seven feet of water. This situation gives us a worrying glimpse into our true nature.

Anyway, has anyone heard ANYTHING from cssamerican? He said he was in the storm's path. I hope he's OK.

[Jacob Orlove]

At 12:40 a.m. CDT (0540 UTC) on August 28, Katrina was upgraded to Category 4. Later that morning, Katrina went through a period of rapid intensification, with its maximum sustained winds reaching as high as 175 mph (280 km/h) (well above the Category 5 threshold of 156 mph (250 km/h)) and a pressure of 906 mbar by 1:00 p.m. CDT. Nonetheless, on August 29 the system made landfall as a strong Category 4 hurricane at 6:15 a.m. CDT near Buras-Triumph, Louisiana with maximum sustained winds of 145 mph (235 km/h).

[xrizzo]

Last time I checked, when I see a 175+ mph monster of a storm the size of the Gulf of Mexico churning my way, I think I would heed the warnings of people saying the city could be completely submerged and get the F out.

They are extremely lucky the storm dropped 30 mph of wind before landfall and headed east.  If it hit at 175mph direct on NO, there would likely be few to no survivors and the city could be completely gone...

What do TMDers think about all the discussion of rebuilding the city?  Must it be done due to the history there?  Is it worth the money?  Must the city be raised a little to prevent this type of disaster from happening again in 30 years?  (seems like a pattern is forming here)

[Godder]

If they rebuild it, it might be done properly this time. Would it be worth rebuilding a city on a faultline that got levelled by an 8 Earthquake?

[cssamerican]

Anyway, has anyone heard ANYTHING from cssamerican? He said he was in the storm's path. I hope he's OK.

At least someone cares:)

Here is the deal from a local...I live in Baton Rouge my immediate family lives in Springfield Louisiana which is southeast of the I-55 I-12 interchange. I have an uncle from the West Bank of New Orleans I haven't heard from. My wife has lots family from Chalmette (In St. Bernard Parish), they are all ok because they went to Houston before Katrina hit; however, they are all homeless now.

They are showing black people in the coverage because N.O. is mainly black. Most of the white people that did actually live in the city lived were above average financially compared to the rest of the states population and most likely didn't mind blowing a couple hundred on a hotel room if this was a false alarm. Just last September I was in N.O. and was caught in an evacuation for Ivan, which never even hit the city. This is kind of what pisses me off about the coverage on this; we have had like 100 false alarms, which is why so many people stayed. Lower income people can't take a vacation or two every freak'n year!

N.O. has an extremely high crime rate, but the state never liked advertising this because it would have hurt tourism. The looting with people stealing TV sets is because those people don't realize they are in a catastrophic disaster and they see an opportunity, simple as that. You have to realize Baton Rouge just got power, cell phones don’t work worth a damn now, and regular phones in many cases aren’t working either, just think about New Orleans. These people have no way of knowing the extent of this damage they just know where they are at is flooded, many probably think that eventually the flood waters will recede. These people will die in their houses from dehydration just because they do not realize what actually happened and are waiting the flood out. The shooting at helicopters is people trying to get someone’ attention, it might not be the smartest thing but people are dying from dehydration and everything else; therefore, people aren’t thinking as clearly as someone at home watching TV.

This is so much worse that what you are seeing in the national media it is not even funny. I have a feeling the death toll is going to shock the nation.

By the way, I work at an insurance company, which was a very sober place yesterday, however, everyone did get a big laugh at the media’s estimation of 25 billion in insured damages. That figure is a joke! Most of the claim adjusters are saying 100 billion, easy.

[Klep]

Very glad to hear you're ok.  I was wondering what your actual name was so I could check MSNBC's survivor list for it.

Anyone who isn't reading it already should check out http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/.  It's a blog of a guy working at a data center in a high rise in NO.  He's been providing a rather unfiltered look at the mess there as he and his group work to keep the 800,000 websites they're responsible for up and running.

[Jacob Orlove]

Anyone who isn't reading it already should check out http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/.  It's a blog of a guy working at a data center in a high rise in NO.  He's been providing a rather unfiltered look at the mess there as he and his group work to keep the 800,000 websites they're responsible for up and running.

A quick glance shows that each post is getting hundreds upon hundreds of comments. Are those worth reading?

[Slay]

It's especially ironic that black people loot while white people find.

Just an observation.
-Slay

[Jacob Orlove]

http://yahooracists.ytmnd.com/

It's especially ironic that black people loot while white people find.

Just an observation.
-Slay

Also, you misused "irony" there.

[Klep]

A quick glance shows that each post is getting hundreds upon hundreds of comments. Are those worth reading?

No.

[Vegeta2711]

http://www.redassedbaboon.com/blog/?ct_id=419

An intresting read from a girl whose stuck right now, posting from her labtop.

[Komatteru]

Actually, she's in Alabama, and mentions that her place has been completely neglected because all the attention is on New Orleans.  I notified the NY Times about that page (not a lot of comments, so maybe not everyone knows about it), so maybe this can get some national attention.