help please (budget gifts deck)

[Fenrus]

I've been playing vintage for a long, long time. I just came back to Magic the gathering a few months ago, after a 4-year lapse. Anyways, I generally only play at FNM tournaments, so proxies aren't allowed. This is the decklist that i'm running at the moment, and mana drains/bazaar of baghdad/mishra's workshop are just out of reach for me.

Instants:
3x Brainstorm
1x Fact or Fiction
4x Tolarion Winds
4x Lim-dul's Vault
3x High Tide
1x Enlightened Tutor <--- artifact search
2x Merchant Scroll <-- just generally useful
4x Dark Ritual
1x Echoing Truth
3x Gift's Ungiven
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
4x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
1x Brain Freeze

Sorcery's:
1x Recoup
1x Demonic Tutor
1x tinker
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Burning Wish

Mana:
2x Volcanic Island
4x Underground Sea
4x Gemstone Mine
3x City of Brass
1x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
1x Tundra
1x Savannah
2x Bayou
2x Badlands
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
3x Island
2x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand

Artifact's
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:
2x Duress
4x Cabal therapy
2x Maze of Ith
2x Meddling Mage
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x ?????

Generally in the Friday Night Magic tourney there are multiple decks, from affinity, to bazaar stax, workshop aggro, or foodchain goblins...Any ideas?

[silvernail]

well to start your mana base is horrible

1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
1x Tundra
1x Savannah
2x Bayou
2x Badlands
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
3x Island
1x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand

decide what colors you are gonna play and stick to it, i would choose black red and blue and this mana base

4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
2 volcanic island
4 city of brass
2 gemstone mine
3 island

this should be a decent manabase that gives you the colors of mana you need much more frequently.

High tide is useless to you without cards like reset or turnabout to make a load of mana with it so  i would just cut them for 1 grim monolith and 2 cabal ritual.

Tolarian winds is pretty bad as well, and merchant scroll would likely be a better choice for this deck, that or lim duls vault. i would also consider adding 2-3 misdirection if you expect counter spell based decks.

sideboard could use things like:

Pithing Needle
Engineered Explosives
Chalice of the Void
Rack and Ruin
Red Elmental Blast
Rebuild
Meltdown
Mind Twist
Engineered Plague
Energy Flux
Annul
Tsabo's Web
Tormod's Crypt

hope that helps .

[NWI Team_Zilla]

You have to have Mana Drains + Moxen to even build a gifts deck, otherwise it just won't work,  You need the Drains to actually be able to cast the Gifts, and you need the moxen to sacrifice to Tinker. If you were to make this 10-proxy, the bes thing I would suggest is proxy 4x Moxen Lotus, 4x Mana Drain, 1x Time Walk, 1x Ancestral Recall, and if you can't, at the very least,  do a 10-proxy build, then you really have no business playing this deck.  So, is this for a 10- proxy tourney?  Or is it 5 proxy?  Let us know what you have available to you and we may be able to get a budget version to work, but like I said you Need at least those 10 cards to even consider this deck.

[silvernail]

Zilla is of course being the type 1 elitest and claiming you have to have these uber cards to play man!!! which may not be true in your area if most of the people dont have power. Not having the most powerful cards in the game will obviously hurt any deck that relies on such power to fuel its victories, but it doesnt make the deck 100% unviable. You have to understand, however that without mana drains the deck loses the ability to have drain mana to fuel its win and also without the drains opponents dont have to worry about you winning if you cast drain on their big cards, becuase it will only be counterspell.

[Fenrus]

I've been playing vintage for a long, long time. I just came back to Magic the gathering a few months ago, after a 4-year lapse. Anyways, I generally only play at Friday Night Magic tournaments, so proxies aren't allowed.

Look above, zilla, for the answer to your proxy question.
I disregard your "must have moxen/drain" philosophy and substitute it with my own. These cards aren't a necessity at a Friday Night Magic tournament. Only one kid has power cards, he in fact runs a fully powered workshop aggro/bazaar stax/or gorger deck, and half the time he doesn't even make top 4. I'm confident that a budget gifts deck will do all-right, even without the drains, though I do wish I had them.

Thanks for your help Silvernail, the test draws are much better now.

[Necrologia]

Without Power and drains, this deck simply won't work on a fundamental level. It's win conditions are Tinker -> Colossus or Rebuild to up storm off Moxen. Your key card costs 4, and you're running no basics at all. It's not just that the deck has been slowed down enough to be run over by any half decent aggro deck, it's that both it's primary win conditions require the use of moxen. Rituals can't be bounced, and can't be sacc'd to tinker. They also require an early black source, but since you're not running any basics it's a moot point.

Will this deck occasionally beat godawful.dec? Sure. Will it lose you way more games than running FCG or the like? Most definitely. FCG or Fish or whatever without power are still the same deck. Gifts without Power has to find a new win condition. Think about that.

Would you try running Long without any power? Of course not. Why then would you try running Gifts, which needs power just as much as long, unpowered?

Zilla is of course being the type 1 elitest and claiming you have to have these uber cards to play man!!!

Azhrei'd have your head for that.

[NWI Team_Zilla]

One question, when you tinker what are you sacrificing to your tinker?  You know that the deck wins using a Tinker for Colossus/Charbelcher/Rebuild Storm right?  So lets say you get down an early Tinker, what artifact are you sacrificing to it? 

And if your format is all budget, then the armies of suicide black/FCG/WTF are going to own such a slow build of gifts.  Anyone can tell you that except maybe silvernail that posts about his Secret Force deck being fully powered (but I'm the elitist right?). 

Urzatron's(Brassman's) Twiddledrix Deck had more of an ability to win than this, maybe Urzatron can give you some pointers.

[Fenrus]

1. I fail to see the difference between sacrificing a lotus petal or a mox, I still get the colossus, and probably on turn 2 instead of 1.
2. Yes, I know, and I don't expect much of a problem I may not have rebuild, but I can still cast enough brainstorms, dark rituals, and/or tutors to pull a turn 3 or 4 tendril's with storm of 14.
3. Look at #1.
4. Yeah, I probably will get owned by sui black or WTF, but it's a fnm tournament without proxies, and I've seen one decently built suicide black deck in the 3 months I've been going.
5. I think the advice silvernail posted is plenty, thank you.

I'd just like to point out, that for all extensive purposes, this is a DCI sanctioned tournament. No Proxies. I've seen one rich kid with all five of the moxes, mana drain, complete P9, etc, and he doesn't know how to play that well at all. Aside from that I've met two other people with moxes, and they were competent. Out of 13 tournaments I've been to I've seen one fully powered gorger deck, no fish decks, two suicide black decks (one was really crappy and the kid didn't know how to play it), and one good goblin foodchain deck. The rest is anything from white weenie to mono blue control. I've actually taken first place twice, once with a sneak attack deck, and once with a really weird oath/combo deck.

[Necrologia]

1. I fail to see the difference between sacrificing a lotus petal or a mox, I still get the colossus, and probably on turn 2 instead of 1.

You're running half as many artifacts as traditional MD Gifts, and half of the artifacts you are running need to be sacc'd to use em. This greatly reduces your chance of winning off a random Turn 1 Island, Mox, Mox, Tinker. It also means there will be games where you just need to dig up an artifact to win, and be unable to find one. Having Tinker go from Win to usually win but sometimes give the opponent a ton of extra turns is bad.

2. Yes, I know, and I don't expect much of a problem I may not have rebuild, but I can still cast enough brainstorms, dark rituals, and/or tutors to pull a turn 3 or 4 tendril's with storm of 14

Of course it's possible, it's just much much harder to do. MD Gifts can go Rebuild, replay Moxen, Wish and be at lethal tendrils. You deck needs to go through all sorts of posturing to pull it off, and is basically incapable of doing so without Will. Not being forced to use a restricted card, even with as much search as Gifts runs is a good thing.

4. Yeah, I probably will get owned by sui black or WTF, but it's a fnm tournament without proxies, and I've seen one decently built suicide black deck in the 3 months I've been going.

This was my main point in posting. If your field is just a pile of random people playing terrible decks, who cares what you're running? Visiting TMD from time to time and knowing what the stack is are probably good enough. If you're just playing for fun go ahead and run your favorite Tempest Block Constructed deck, or break out T2 Tooth and Nail, or unpowered Gifts.

If, instead you really want to get better at the format, or simply win more I really recommend you pick up a new deck. The one you're running will play completely different from powered Gifts, while having an awful matchup against what you're most likely to see: Aggro.

[Fenrus]

What would you suggest running then, Necrologia? No power cards, no proxies, etc.

[Anusien]

If you can build unpowered Oath, that's probably your best option.  If everyone is running mostly aggro, Oath's big creatures will completely run them over.  Drain also requires the least amount of power, and some modern builds are even cutting Drain in favor of more draw spells.  Fit in a few Misdirections if you have them - they tend to run over Sui Black.

[Fenrus]

I actually did end up going with an oath deck, here's the list:
Land:
4x Forbidden Orchard
4x Badlands
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
4x Forest
3x Mountain

Sorcery's:
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Demonic Tutor

Instants:
2x Berserk
4x Grab The Reins
2x Fling
1x Vampiric Tutor

Artifacts:
1x Sol Ring
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
4x Lightning greaves
3x Helm of Kaldra

Enchantments:
4x Defense of the Heart
4x Oath of Druids
3x City of Solitude
2x Drop of Honey

Creatures
2x Serra Avatar
1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Platinum Angel

Sideboard
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Spirit of the Night
3x Naturalize
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Duress
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Maze of Ith
1x Island of Wak-Wak
1x Engineered explosives
1x Lightning Bolt

Round 1: Bazaar Stax
Game one was real quick, I went first and landed forbidden orchard and lotus petal--oath. Second turn I played lightning greaves and equipped them to Serra Avatar. Game two, I lost after a long and hard fought battle with a chalice of the void on the field with two counters. Game three: ended up beating him down with darksteel colossus and helm of kaldra.

Round 2: Mono Blue Control
Game one: After winning the die roll, I put a mana crypt and a bayou on the field, first turn city of solitude. Second turn was Orchard, Lightning greaves, and oath. Third turn meant death for my unlucky opponent. Game two: this game lasted 15 rounds, I was mana screwed for a good portion and he countered my oaths, in the end I hardcasted a darksteel and eventually beat him down with it.

Round 3: Fully powered B/U/G Oath
Game one: Like a complete idiot, i casted oath on my first turn, forgetting that my opponent, John, had a forbidden orchard in play already. Akroma and spirit of the night beat me down after a time walk. Game Two: Sideboarded out 2x Fling Sideboarded in 1x island of Wak-wak 1x maze of ith. We both got an early orchard, and neither of us played oath, in the end his strip mine and second orchard won the battle for him. Stalled him a little by berserking SotN, using grab the reins and tossing it at him, but not enough.

Round 4: Goblin beatdown with some burn.
Game one: Pacifist goblins, got me down to 6 with lightning bolts and fireballs, kept shocking the tokens I gave him with orchard and eventually stripped it. In the end, it was the city of solitude and Platinum angel with lightning greaves that won this round for me. Game Two: He went first and dropped goblins like nothing else, I ended up playing two oaths, and had a 14/14 serra avatar and a Darksteel colossus. Equipped them both with lightning greaves and attacked. Mike blocked the avatar and took colossus, so I used fling on my avatar to end the game.

Top 4: Round one: Landstill
Game one: I got the shit kicked out of me from everything, the combination of wastelands, crucible, and nevinyrral's disk just stomped me to the ground. Game Two: I ended up being beat down by his manlands, was able to kill a few between grab the reins, but in the end I was only stalling.

All in all, it was a pretty fun tournament considering the prize for 1st was a $10 gift certificate and a Friday night magic kird ape. Bazaar stax went on to win first, versus landstill.

[Marton]

As far as I know, it is not legal to run a type-1 FNM. FNM are strictly supposed to be type-2 stuff or drafts.
With that said, if I am wrong, please tell me, since I would be damn glad to inform the store owner I go to that he can run type-1 FNM instead of type-2 FNM.

[Fenrus]

Umm, we've been playing vintage FNM tournaments for a long time. I believe Ken, the store owner, has been running them for years. I'm fairly certain FNM tournaments can be of any type.

[lep]

To be an FNM Sanctioned event for the FNM promos and what not the event has to be Block Constructed, Type 2, Limited (Draft), or Limited (Sealed).  If the event isn't one of these 4, the owner cannot give out the promos or submit results to the DCI.

[Fenrus]

To make it easier to participate, Friday Night Magic events may only be Standard Constructed, Sealed Deck or Booster Draft. Keeping these formats makes it easier for new players to participate, and you only have to remember three things: Pack your Standard deck; remember where the tournament is happening, and what time it starts. --He's right, taken off the FNM home page on magicthegathering.com

[diamond66]

 "This just hit me, and i'm dumb founded that I didn't notice it before. Game one he oathed with my oath, *sigh* i'm an idiot".


Maybe I missed it, but why exactly is this a problem?

[Sjoerd]

This is a problem, since your opponent will get his big creature out a turn before you do, and since he is playing an orchard himself, you won't be able to oath at all. That, simply said, was suicide...

[diamond66]

No, I meant I understood the consequences of him playing the Oath, it just seemed that he was saying that his opponent shouldn't have been able to activate his Oath, or something along those lines.  Maybe I just misinterpreted. 

[Fenrus]

Just checked the oracle, again, my mistake. The original wording on the card lead me to believe that when oath comes into play you chose an opponent, etc. But the Oracle text is quite different. So, yeah, not a mistake.