September 1st B&R announcement

[PipOC]

Control has already gone down the tubes, when it was supplanted by combo-control decks. There hasn't been a real, competetive control deck in this format in well over a year. Maybe two years.

Pure control hasn't existed in Vintage since The Deck stopped running Serras as it's win condition.  When it started running fireball so that it could be recurred over a time walk turn with recall it ceased to be pure control.  The meer inclusion of yawgmoths will makes every control deck into combo control to an extent.

[forests failed you]

NO WAY.  The 3cc decks that were ramapant around the time of gencon last year were pure control decks.  Beating down with Exalted Angel against weenies and cycling Decree of Justice does not count as 'comboing out.'

The deck did play Yawgmoth's Will, but so does every other deck in the format, so that doesn't make it a combo control deck.

[prosbloom225]

The fact is, if your you're not playing stompy or sligh, your you're winning with a combo of some sort.

Sorry, but with the same mistake twice in a one sentence post, I just had to fix it.
-Jacob

[alban]

what about Exalted angel, as mentioned before 

[prosbloom225]

Well, I doubt that they'd restrict drain or shop.  Partly because they're so expensive and restricting them would hurt the market.   Also the three cards keep the others in check.  There isn't one dominating card right now, and thats a sign of a healthy format.

There's also the "restriction cascade" that goes with killing one of these cards, which is something that everyone wants to avoid.

I'd love to see unrestricted FoF. I think people are going nuts over the fact that it was good in 2001, and the modern metagame looks nothing like BBS, Keeper, and everything else.

You're right, FoF doesn't seem like it would be as powerful as it was before.  Though unrestricting it would have the possibility of changing the metagame quite a bit.  As for the impact it would have on current decks; anything blue based would get better.  CS, gifts, and oath to name a few, could run more than one FoF.  I don't think that FoF should be unrestricted because it had such a great impact on the metagame not long ago and we all know how powerful the damn card is.  Bottom line, keep the card restricted.

[absolute]

The fact is, if your you're not playing stompy or sligh, your you're winning with a combo of some sort.

Sorry, but with the same mistake twice in a one sentence post, I just had to fix it.
-Jacob

That's funny rationale considering the fact that fish, mono blue control and to some extent stax cannot fit under your definition of a 'combo'. Yawgmoth's will is in itself a self sustaining combo (although there are very few cards that have been used to limit its' efficiency by recent standards), and it shouldn't be used to define too many successful archetypes at the moment. Control decks have only been hampered in design over the past couple of months, not due to a lack of interest, but from a lack of player base.

[Gabethebabe]

The one card I believe is seriously safe from Restriction, even though they always watch it is Drain. Without Drain, control would go down the tubes, and WotC is not ready to throw away a large percentage of the decks people play.

Control has already gone down the tubes, when it was supplanted by combo-control decks. There hasn't been a real, competetive control deck in this format in well over a year. Maybe two years.

Competetive ==> competitive.
If you edit posts of other people because of a silly spelling error and ask them to use the spelling checker, you´d better make bloody sure you type correctly yourself. 

[prosbloom225]

I can't think of a deck that requires yawg win to win the game.  Decks with a combo win don't require yawg win to win the game, they have other, more consistent methods to win.  Though once you play yawgmoth's willl you usually win the game, it's not a consistant win.

[PipOC]

I can't think of a deck that requires yawg win to win the game.  Decks with a combo win don't require yawg win to win the game, they have other, more consistent methods to win.  Though once you play yawgmoth's willl you usually win the game, it's not a consistant win.

Yawgmoth's Will is a secondary win condition in 4cc.  Frequently you would bait out a counter with angel so you could resolve a devastating yawgwill.  This made it into a Will combo deck to an extent.

[Dozer]

Let's be clear here: A combo is a combination of two or more cards that work explicitly together to create a game-breaking or -winning effect (which is created by the interaction only). Yawgmoth's Will creates a game-breaking effect all by itself, so it is not a combo. 4cc is not a combo deck. Stone Keeper was a combo-control deck, MD Gifts is a combo-control deck, Stax is a combo-prison deck (Crucible + Strip is a combo, as is Smokestack + Crucible + artifact land). Landstill + Mishra's Factory is a combo, if you will. Control Slaver is combo-control, too. Fish, on the other hand, is NOT combo.

Pure control decks have been rare indeed, but both Mono-U and 4/3cc qualify. It is obvious, though, why pure control strategies lose the metagame: They give their more explosive opponents too much time to work through their defenses, they take too much time to set up, and they need to protect their few threats longer than they nowadays can.

Dozer

[Liam-K]

The common definition of "combo" got tossed with the printing of Tendrils.  Long contains no combos.  It just contains a lot of cards that let you play a lot of cards.

[Fubar]

Cheers for getting MOM off the list, it wasn't worthy of that list for a long time. 
As for the combo argument, I agree with liam.  Whatever the definition of combo was, the storm mechanic changed what the word means in peoples minds.  Magic terminology over the years evolves, just like deckbuilding.

[prosbloom225]

Control turned into combo control, combo is still just combo.  We all know the difference between deathlong and cs.  Just because tendrils got printed shouldnt kill the term combo-deck.  Thats really about all that should be said on that subject.