Touched by Darkness

[dandan]

I must admit Godder's suggestion is straighforward and gives a combat bonus rather than a general pump. Would you be able to deal damage, get a counter and be able to use it to pump in order to save the Knight (in a Knight vs Bear fight)? I'm not too sure how to word that but that sounds ideal )i.e. you can't get the pump to do more damage but you can get the pump to save the knight.

[Matt]

You can if you give it doublestrike.

[JAG]

the way godder has it worded, you can't, since it triggers on him attacking or blocking.  I like that flavor, tho, b/c it only makes sense that he'd really learn from his opponents after the fight is over. 

Doesn't have first strike anyway?  So he'd beat a Bear regardless?

-JM

[Godder]

He could come into play with a <name> token on him, or the trigger for adding tokens could be changed to "whenever ~this~ attacks or blocks, put a <name> token on it" or some such, so that it can be stacked.

[asmoranomardicodais]

Why not just do the simple (albeit less powerfull wording):

If ~this~ puts a creature into the graveyard, it put an experience counter on it.
If ~this~ has one or more experience counters on it, it gains first strike
If ~this~ has two or more experience counters on it, it gains +1/+1
If ~this~ has three or more experience counters on it, it gains doublestrike
If ~this~ has four or more experience counters on it, it is black

Something to that effect. It seems pretty elegant to me, and it seems to do what dandan wants it to do. Whats the problem there?

[Matt]

Because it's hugely long.

[dandan]

Thanks for so many replies!

Asmoverylongname's suggestion IS what I'd like but is way too long and inelegant.

Some suggestions would mean that I'd take First Strike away for power levels. For example if this gets a counter whenever it attacks and can trade that counter in for +1/+0 then a 3/2 First Striker for WW is way too good.

Here are the two versions I like the most

Touched by Darkness (Godder version)
W W/B
Creature - Human Knight
First Strike
Whenever this attacks or blocks, it gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of experience counters on ~this~
Whenever ~this~ deals combat damage, put an experience counter on it at the end of combat
2/2

Or the more flexible but less elegant

Touched by Darkness (Dandan version)
W W/B
Creature - Human Knight
Whenever ~this~ attacks or blocks, put an experience counter on ~this~
Remove an experience counter from ~this~: ~this~ gains either +1/+0, First Strike, Vigilence or Bushido 1 until end of turn

Note that I removed First Strike but gave it experience right away so you can choose First Strike. You could also choose it to be a vanilla 3/2 (which is something I 'borrowed' from the vanilla WW thread) or give it Bushido. I also removed the +0/+1 option as Bushido is always superior in combat and out of combat I don't want protection from Shock!

I am wary of Double Strike as it is very hard to cost such creatures. I suspect that giving a 2/2 for 2 mana dopuble strike if it gains an experience counter would make it too good (bearing in mind equipment).

[JAG]

Re: asmora...:It would also not be as elegant as you think it is.  The first ability as it is written does nothing.  You would have to give it a Visara-like ability for it to do anything.  Keep in mind that creatures killed by lethal damage die b/c of the rules, not from anything related to the damage source.  The ability would have to be worded like a Vampire ability, which as you'll recall would take several lines of text. 

I prefer the Godder version, partly for functionality but also b/c it doesn't make much sense flavorwise for him to lose experience counters.  Is he becoming more Vigiliant by headbutting a wall and forgetting stuff he used to know?  To me, "experience" counters should not be things that should be lost for the effect of the card.

Finally, although I prefer the Godder version, if you go with yours, I have to recommend that the creature should not gain experience counters for combat in which he doesn't deal with an enemy creature.  This is purely for flavor purposes and not based on power level or anything.  Thus, it would be "Whenever <this> blocks or is blocked". 

For all the work this card has gone through, it better make it into the set!

-JM

[dandan]

Very good points, experience shouldn't be lost.

Touched by Darkness (Dandan version)
W W/B
Creature - Human Knight
Whenever ~this~ blocks or is blocked, put an experience counter on ~this~
0:~this~ gains either +1/+0, First Strike, Vigilence or Bushido 1 until end of turn. You may play this ability up to the number of experience counters on ~this~ each turn
2/2

Is that too strong? Probably not seeing as it is unlikely to block or be blocked that many times. I think it actually works in a fairly similar way to asmoranomardicodais's suggestion.

I think the Godder version is too good to waste, perhaps make that as a W W/G cc Knight (to reflect the growth aspect). Hell we can have a whole cycle of these W W/colour dudes!!

[Matt]

You know, the whole concept of creatures gaining experience already has a template. It's called flip cards.

[Godder]

You know, the whole concept of creatures gaining experience already has a template. It's called flip cards.

I was thinking that too, but flip cards don't really represent incremental experience gains, they either represent someone transcending the mortal plane or someone suddenly becoming badass, with no sign of experience beforehand (basically, it just happens).

[dandan]

Ok, leaving flippin cards to one side. Is the current version of this doable?

[Godder]

It's do-able.

[asmoranomardicodais]

But still off-color

[dandan]

How is this off-colour now?

He can only get better through combat.
He can only get combat bonuses and abilities that White already has.
This is now a Black card as well as a White one

[Matt]

For flavor reasons, if you want it to get Bushido then it needs to be samurai-themed. For example, Chub Toad does not have bushido.

This is a real funky mana cost.

[dandan]

Giving it Bushido is far shorted than giving it Chub-Toad ability and Rampage is weak, harder to understand and also out of flavour.

Anyway, Tom Cruise got Bushido in the Last Samurai.

[Jacob Orlove]

If you're going to use the W/B symbol, shouldn't this guy fit into the Orzhov guild?

[Ephraim]

Now that I think about it, the Orzhov guild is a Syndicate -- it's the mafia of Ravnica. I agree with J||<3 and/or Matt that it is probably important to theme this either as a member of the syndicate or as a samurai. Having neither flies in the face of two conventions. I wouldn't so much mind flying in the face of just one. On the other hand, it would probably be possible to use both. After all, blue got Vedalken back and red has Viashino. There's no reason why white can't have Samurai.

name: Veteran Ronin (Orzhov Ronin, if all other such cards have the guild name in their title. I don't remember.)
creature type: Cat Samurai (just because that's so much cooler than a human samurai.)
flavour text: The Orzhov Syndicate employs many warriors who have outlived their own honor.

[Matt]

I think that flavor text is just too good to ignore. I second the call for Orzhov Samurai!

[JAG]

I don't mind making this guy a part of a guild, but keep in mind that using the half-and-half symbol does NOT carry the prequisite of the card being a guild card.  One of Mark Rosewater's reasons for using the half-and-half symbol as opposed to a Guild symbol was so that hybrid cards would not be restricted to use in Ravnica and they could be brought back later. 

I love the flavor text, but I'm again not sure we need to make it a guild card.  If we don't, we need a card to take on that flavor text.

-JM

[Jacob Orlove]

The only real reason for not using the guild mana symbols is that it would be massively confusing and players would hate it. Even with the two-color borders, there's nothing that tells you what that new symbol IS, and that's a recipe for disaster.

Technically, they may bring back hybrid mana in the future, but since we don't know the context that we'll see it in, I think it makes sense to use the current flavor unless there's a really compelling reason not to.

[jro]

Removing counters to gain Bushido plays horribly.  You attack with a counter on, and you have to decide to pull the counter for Bushido before the opponent declares blockers.  If you pull the counter after blockers are declared, you don't get the pump.  I'd vote for changing the +1/+0 to +1/+1 (seems more white) and for changing Bushido to protection from the color of your choice (more Knight like, and better fits the original flavor).

[dandan]

JRO- that is true although Bushido still works as a deterrant if you use it first and it works fine in defence. I really want it to gain abilities that are only useful in combat and both pump and protection both allow this to dodge bolts plus protection also gives this evasion, which means less combat!! Earlier versions had +0/+1 instead of Bushido. It only really matters that Bushido doesnt work that well as a combat 'surprise' when your opponent has a 2/3 blocker and you have one counter and you would like him to block. There is a rather small chance of that happening.

I've made him an Orzhov Samurai but would prefer to keep him a creature type - Human Knight

This merely shows how well travelled he is.

[dandan]

I'm starting the clock on this one

[Ephraim]

That doesn't work. You may not have the word "Samurai" in the card title and then not give this the creature type "Samurai." It's against Wizards' templating rules, for reasons of clarity. (For example, it is non-intuitive that this card, although called a Samurai, does not interact with [card]Call to Glory[/card].) If it's going to be a Samurai, it needs to have the creature type Samurai. Furthermore, "Orzhov Samurai" is an adequate name, at best. This card started off with a very flavourful idea. Although the flavour has evolved, don't forsake it now by giving this a bland, merely-descriptive name. If Veteran Ronin doesn't appeal to you, how about Shadow-Touched Ronin, Grim Blademaster, or Callous Swordsman.

[dandan]

I really really want this to be called Touched by Darkness but I know that no-one else would agree to that for reasons I am all too aware of.

[Matt]

Reason #1: It isn't a noun

[dandan]

Is that from the same person who writes to Wizards asking them to think a bit laterally when it comes to artistic content of Magic cards, complaining that too strict guidelines result in carbon copy cards rather than creations of and for imagination?

[Matt]

Dandan, Touched by Darkness would work fine. Well, not the dandan part, but <name>.