[General Wondering] Where did the draw in CS go?

[Anders Noer]

I may have been out of the loop for a few months, due to stupid things like WoW and Work.
People tell me that Control Slaver is back in business. It's supposed to be one of the best decks right now. (Meandeck Tendrils SX obviously is the best deck ALL TEH TIEM!, but what do they know... Newbsorz!)

When I played Slaver a year ago, people advocated Intuitions and AK to boost it's draw and out-bust even Hulks draw engine. At one point the deck had:
3 Intuition
4 AK
1-2 Deep Analysis
4 Brainstorm
4 Thrist for Knowledge
1 Fact Or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall

...thats blatantly overdoing it. Some games would be like:
Turn 1: brainstorm, take 1 from lackey, Goblin Warchief pops into play
Turn 2: Intuition for AK, take 8 from Lackey + Warchief + Piledriver. Recruiter joins the party.
Turn 3: Thirst, Welder, die to crap...
 - You'd draw a lot of cards, but never have a chance to use any of them, since you draw... well... draw.

I never liked the AKs, but Intuition is a mad tutor in this deck - why has that been left out in recent builds? Is it dubbed: "I win more"? I can see how it is "only" good, with an active Welder, but even then, I think it's good enough to be played at least as a two of. Turn 1 Welder, Turn 2 Intuition/Thirst is as easy as Turn 1 Careful Study, Turn 2 Wild Mongrel.

So - Where have all the clowns gone ?

[PipOC]

Well I don't know about any clowns, but most Slaver decks have gone down to

4 TfK
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral
0-1 Gifts Ungiven
0-1 Fact or Fiction
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical tutor

The most draw heavy builds around these days usually go so far as to add

2-3 Intuition
2 Deep analysis

I haven't seen any Intuition AK builds in quite a while, let alone builds that run DA in addition to the AKs.


Intuition has been left out because without AK or deep analysis it's just not worth the card slots to tutor up random slaver/strip locks, when you could run Gifts as a singleton multitutor.

[Arvid]

I play and like this configuration very much:

4 TfK
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric tutor
2 Intuition
1 Deep analysis

[Xenoben187]

The first builds that did well ran only 4 thirst, 4 bs, acall, tutors and FoF.  Most of the builds that have done well since then have run only that. 

[Sagath]

When I played Slaver a year ago, people advocated Intuitions and AK to boost it's draw and out-bust even Hulks draw engine. At one point the deck had:
3 Intuition
4 AK
1-2 Deep Analysis
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Fact Or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall

...thats blatantly overdoing it. Some games would be like:
Turn 1: brainstorm, take 1 from lackey, Goblin Warchief pops into play
Turn 2: Intuition for AK, take 8 from Lackey + Warchief + Piledriver. Recruiter joins the party.
Turn 3: Thirst, Welder, die to crap...
 - You'd draw a lot of cards, but never have a chance to use any of them, since you draw... well... draw.
...

So - Where have all the clowns gone ?

Hey, is that some kind of cheap pun towards Clown of Tresserhorn?!

Anyways, to the point at hand. Did you not answer your own question? There is not alot of Grow/Hulk in the current meta, thus validating your first point, and your example specifically shows why its better to have more business spells then draw.

With a proliferant amount of stacks running around, drawing an ungodly amount of cards just means you get locked down to smokestack/crucible/sphere/whatever rather then plopping a welder down or countering said business spells. This is not advantageous, and leads to the scoop phase rather quickly. It is very similar in the gifts match up, where tapping out at end of turn could spell 'Doom' also.

On the other hand, the deck does have about 5 to 6 slots that are customizable to a given meta, and can be adjusted to playstyle/meta at will.
For an example; With an abundant amount of fish in my meta, I find it is still wise to run a maindeck angel. Most people have dusted her off in favor of other things, I unfortunately cannot as (in game 1) she can be an utterly huge bomb. This raises my fish ratio to probably the 80 percentile ratio for the match.

The old rule of thumb allways applies: Adjust the deck as you see fit to your meta and playstyle. No deck is written in stone. Obviously if you see alot of dragon, you will want a maindeck (or two) Tormods crypt. Alot of Stax would indicate a Rack or Ruin or two. And so forth.

[forests failed you]

Windfall and I had tons of success with a TurboSlaver deck we were tinkering with in the late spring/early summer.  It was really fast and focused on Slavering early and often.  The problem was that there was no room to play maindeck answers.  As you will probably notice there is one reactive card in the deck besides permission, Echoing Truth, and it was our sole answer to anything that slipped through the counterwall.  The savage thing was that it was really fast, and beat the living shit out of CS mirrors or anything that played Drain.  Stax was a good matchup provided they did not have first turn Chalice 0, In the Eye, or Chains.  The killer was that once decks began to play with 4 maindeck Chalice of the Void, after we dominated in Chicago with 4 Chalice Oath, there were too many Chalices for the deck to effectively go off.

TURBO SLAVER

3 Goblin Welder
2 Mindslaver
1 Pentavus

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fact or Fiction

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Echoing  Truth

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Seat of Synod

1 Tolerian Academy
1 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
5 Island

SBoard
2 echoing Truth
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Goblin Welder
2 Spawning Pit
1 Darksteel Colossos
3 Stifle
1 Triskellion
1 Lava Dart

We changed the Mana base around to have a better game against Stax.  Notice five fetch only 4 duals, 5 basic Island.  Also we cut slower cards like Demonic Tutor in order to play more draw speed instants.  This deck drew a lot of cards really quickly.  Before you comment that this is awful because it doesn't play answers or this or that note that.  1.  This deck is awful against a metagame with Chalice of the Void everywhere which is why we have put it aside for the time being, 2.  Before Chalice went rampant we won a lot of money with this deck;  it has been thouroughly tested and is quite efficient and broken with a good pilot.  3.  It is a combo deck similar in style and speed to Gifts, not a control deck.

[Moxlotus]

after we dominated in Chicago with 4 Chalice Oath

WTF.  When did anybody ever dominate with 4 Chalice Oath in any tournament?

[Komatteru]

after we dominated in Chicago with 4 Chalice Oath

If by this you mean when you took second that day in Chicago (Mark played Slaver that day), then ok.  It's not really domination when you do well with one deck.  Also, people didn't start maindecking Chalice because of your success.  Oath mostly fell off the face of the planet after that even (aside from a few scattered appearances, notably GWS at Gencon Friday and Saturday).  Chalice Fish became popular because of Ashok's success at Waterbury and Jacob's success at Richmond, not because of Oath.  Kevin had maindeck Chalices in Stax before that even.

[forests failed you]

Kowal and I split at SCG Chicago, I played 4 Chalice Oath and didn't lose a match.  That is the first time I recall people really "buzzing" about how savage 4 Chalice aggro control decks were against Slaver.

JDizzle, you are right Windfall played the Turbo Slaver list below that day; (and might have top eighted with it had he not conceeded to ensure my top eight slot) . so yes, I guess it isn't plural 'we' dominated, but rather singular 'I' dominated.  I wasn't at Waterbury so I don't recall, you are probably right.  I don't follow actual tournaments that closely unless I am playing in them.  All I know is that I hadn't played against anybody playing Chalice + FOW in a really long time before I played Steve's list at SCG Chicago.

I know that Chalice has been in Stax forever, as I played it in my Stax list's immediately after the release of Mirrodin.  I wasn't saying that I was the first person to play with Chalice of the Void (Who gives a shit about that)  I'm simply saying that around the time of that Chicago event Chalice of the Void became a huge card in Vintage that started going into lots of decks.  I definately think that Steve's article about Chalice Oath may have influenced this trend.

To try and put this conversation back on track away from JDizzle's History (which I do appreciate) lesson and Moxlotus' confusion;  My point is that Slaver decks that focused on drawing lots of cards and ignoring their opponent ceased to be viable when aggro and aggro control decks started cards, such as Chalice of the Void, which more directly forced Slaver to interact.  This is why in my opinion we are starting to see Slaver decks with narrow cards in the maindeck, and tutors to find them instead of lots of extra draw spells.

[Lou]

This is why in my opinion we are starting to see Slaver decks with narrow cards in the maindeck, and tutors to find them instead of lots of extra draw spells.

I couldn't agree with this statement more.  Slaver has never had so few draw spells, and the reason is because it needs maindeck answers.

[Anders Noer]

Great responses. I think I'm getting closer to understanding...

This is why in my opinion we are starting to see Slaver decks with narrow cards in the maindeck, and tutors to find them instead of lots of extra draw spells.

I couldn't agree with this statement more.  Slaver has never had so few draw spells, and the reason is because it needs maindeck answers.

But let's face it -  isn't this counterproductive to slavers main gameplan?
To completely play it's own (and it's opponents) game the way it wants to.

Tossing in 1 Rack And Ruin, 1 Echoing Truth and 1 Gorilla Shaman to answer problems makes your own game plan less consistant...
Draw spells makes your own game plan a lot more focused and makes you care less about what your opponent does.
Threats are better than answers. <--- [PERIOD]

I'm not advocating draw spells here - I'm simply trying to find out why the deck has taken this direction. To me 3 1-ofs and a tutor package seems just as slow as an assload of draw spells and a solid game plan.
Sure - this deck will be the slower deck in most duels, but does this warrant maindeck 1-of hate/answer-cards that solve specific problems? (Speaking prejudiced here, I'm guessing that you probably never have that single Fire/Ice when you REALLY need it anyways - but you draw it when facing TPS or something stupid. Mystical for Fire/Ice is really awful...)

I think the deck needs to have more general answers and solid threats. When I say general answers I'm thinking along the lines of 2-3 Echoing Truth, 2-3 Blood Moon, 2-3 Annul, 2-3 Stifle, 2-3 REB etc. suiting your expected local meta. I'd much rather play this constellation than a series of one ofs and the tutor package.
2-3 Fire/Ice really boost your mirror, fish and FCG matchups if those is give you wrinkles.
2-3 Annul does wonders in a world of Oath and Stax...
You have to be fairly good at metagaming to do this though - I'll be the first to admit that, but even then, I still think this is better.
BTW: It can't be Cunning Wish as that is clearly too slow.

By more solid threats, I mean 2 maindeck Mind Slavers and/or 2 Sundering Titans (next best win condition IMO) + probably Trisk and Pentavus to ensure consistancy (Plats would be my next choice I think).

Control Slavers inherent problem as I see it, is it being (along with 3-4cc and Ophie-based decks) the slowest deck in the format.
Control decks are usually slow - that's ok... but Control Slaver doesn't have THAT much disruption. Sometimes you just wished for maindeck Duress, Stifles or more counters - I never feel confident playing against combo with Slavery.

[Moxlotus]

Tossing in 1 Rack And Ruin, 1 Echoing Truth and 1 Gorilla Shaman to answer problems makes your own game plan less consistant...
Draw spells makes your own game plan a lot more focused and makes you care less about what your opponent does.
Threats are better than answers. <--- [PERIOD]

Without those answers, you will die to decks.  Your opponent will kill you faster than you can "play your own game."  Especially when you can't play your own game because by turn 2 they have SoR and Stack in play.  Or they have DSC in play.  Your extra draw spells won't do shit against that.

[Lou]

Tossing in 1 Rack And Ruin, 1 Echoing Truth and 1 Gorilla Shaman to answer problems makes your own game plan less consistant...
Draw spells makes your own game plan a lot more focused and makes you care less about what your opponent does.
Threats are better than answers. <--- [PERIOD]

Without those answers, you will die to decks.  Your opponent will kill you faster than you can "play your own game."  Especially when you can't play your own game because by turn 2 they have SoR and Stack in play.  Or they have DSC in play.  Your extra draw spells won't do shit against that.

This statement is true.  You are a control deck here, most of the time, and with the metagame in the state that it is, you must have answers to everyone's gameplan, because they most definitely have answers to your threats.  Vroman with 4 Barbarian Rings in his Uba Stax list.  Holy shit man, I hope you don't plan on using that Goblin Welder.  So you need something to deal with Crucible, and all the other threats like that, and the answer right now is a maindeck Rack and Ruin in this case.  Null Rod is played right now, and I don't care what anyone says, that card is tough.  You must have maindeck answers for cards like these, period.

[forests failed you]

There are specific cards being played right now that really hinder slaver's ability to draw cards and go off.  Chalice of the Void is the biggest one.  Saying one's answer to Chalice on turn one is FOrce of Will or die isn't good enough.  I am not playing Rack and Ruin anymore.  I don't think it is that good, unless you are in a field completely packed with Stax decks.  Gorilla Shaman is much better, and he isn't as narrow of a card as one would believe.  He is outstanding in every single matchup you can draw him in.  That leaves Fire / Ice and Echoing Truth.  Truth is a great card all around, whereas Fire / Ice is only good against opposing guys. 

The only card that I really see as being particularly narrow sighted is the Fire / Ice, because Truth and Shaman are just great defensive cards.  However I believe there has to be some sort of MD answer to Swarm and Meddling Mage.

[Revvik]

Maindecked Gorilla Shaman is almost singlehandedly the reason my win percentage against Control Slaver and Meandeck Gifts was as high as it was with 'Tog, and why Chalice of the Void is an irrelevant threat.  Although DeMars uses the Shaman in a very different way (acknowledgement of a weakness of the deck and a solid answer to said weakness).  Shaman primarily complimented Wastelands and Strip Mine for additional mana denial.

Draw spells have been cut in order to make room for answers because back when Slaver decks debuted, the opponent's game plan against them was almost nonexistent.  Chalice of the Void wasn't a generally accepted hate card against them.  All Control Slaver had to do was draw into a Goblin Welder or whatever it needed to secure a Mindslaver activation and protect it.

Now Slaver decks are faced with the challenge of a knowledgeable opponent, and have adapted by running maindeck solutions that strengthen the deck, despite a drop in overall draw power.  This is acceptable because unlike Psychatog-based control decks, the predecessor 'top control deck,' Slaver doesn't have to draw a huge portion of its deck to defeat you.

As for the specific answers mentioned, Rack and Ruin always seemed a little bizarre.  Gorilla Shaman and Echoing Truth should be quite enough - if a Workshop or Fish deck manages to successfully Chalice you for two and one you deserve to lose.  I've never been a huge fan of Echoing Truth, but it definitely gets done what needs to get done.  And while no one's Gorilla Shaman is nearly as nifty as mine, try him out - he's incredible.