2-Land Belcher

[policehq]

More than 1 Cabal Ritual in my opening hand usually leads to a mulligan.

Yawgmoth's Bargain acts as a 5th Belcher that is more expensive to put out. Yes, it also gives you more mana and possibly an extra Duress, but if Yawgmoth's Bargain resolved, why wouldn't Goblin Charbelcher?

Basically Luiggi was the first to point out that Bargain doesn't give your opponent cards, and that's been the strongest argument that has come up; saying that black combo decks run it as a rule is a bit off (take Doomsday, for example). I personally don't feel like a reactive game beats Belcher, from playing it many times. A Force of Will doesn't hurt as much as proactive hate like Chalice of the Void or Null Rod.

TPS has Force of Wills. It would make sense that the deck would try and keep the blue count as high as possible. Comparing TPS to Belcher is ridiculous. Why should Belcher splash blue for Timetwister? Well I don't know; why don't we ask 90% of the people taking Belcher to Top 8's? Just look on morphling. It really isn't that hard to win after getting 7 new cards for three mana.

[Klep]

More than 1 Cabal Ritual in my opening hand usually leads to a mulligan.

Fewer than 3 Cabal Rits in your deck leads to not drawing any.

Yawgmoth's Bargain acts as a 5th Belcher that is more expensive to put out. Yes, it also gives you more mana and possibly an extra Duress, but if Yawgmoth's Bargain resolved, why wouldn't Goblin Charbelcher?

Maybe you didn't have the Belcher.  Bargain is a win condition that is actually less expensive than Belcher by 1 mana.  If it hits, you won the game for 6 mana.  Belcher costs 7.

Basically Luiggi was the first to point out that Bargain doesn't give your opponent cards, and that's been the strongest argument that has come up; saying that black combo decks run it as a rule is a bit off (take Doomsday, for example). I personally don't feel like a reactive game beats Belcher, from playing it many times. A Force of Will doesn't hurt as much as proactive hate like Chalice of the Void or Null Rod.

If a control game doesn't shake you up, then your control opponents are terrible.  I suppose you're right, there are combo decks with black that don't run Bargain, but that's generally because Bargain runs up against the way the deck works.  Doomsday was exceptionally slow, and needed all of the black mana at its disposal to cast a BBB spell.  It didn't have the same quantity of acceleration that Belcher does, and so couldn't rely on drawing into more black sources if Bargain hit the table.  In addition, by virtue of being slow, it took more time to thoroughly disrupt the opponent and in that way acted akin to a control deck.
Dragon, on the other hand, has even less acceleration, with no rituals whatsoever.  It needs the space for its Animates and Dragons.  If it had a prayer of being able to actually cast the spell, it would most definitely include it.
Belcher, on the other hand, is a pure combo deck and DOES run the acceleration needed in order to reliably play Bargain.  If you find yourself having trouble doing so, then you simply aren't mulliganing enough.  There is no excuse whatsoever to not be running it in this deck.

TPS has Force of Wills. It would make sense that the deck would try and keep the blue count as high as possible. Comparing TPS to Belcher is ridiculous. Why should Belcher splash blue for Timetwister? Well I don't know; why don't we ask 90% of the people taking Belcher to Top 8's? Just look on morphling. It really isn't that hard to win after getting 7 new cards for three mana.

Force only needs about 16 blue cards to support it.  Surely splashing for Wheel of Fortune wouldn't hurt that too much.   Besides, as JDizzle pointed out, hands of 7 in Belcher can be real stinkers.  This deck mulligans a LOT.  There's nothing even approaching a garuntee that your Twister hand will give you a hand that can win.

I apologize for any grammatical faux pas contained within this post, as it was written in a rather hurried and disjoint manner in a lab where I'm working at the moment.

[cophos]

I mean, I really like Swarms, but has anyone tested Grid's yet? 2 In in the Maindeck seem like a nice addition since it's castable with every mana source and not affected by creature hate. (Artifact Hate though ... )
Obviously it's not the most speed oriented card, but it's faster than Swarm to be fair, (If one's able to go off after spending  . ) and it's probably easier to cast than Duress from time to time and probably more effective too.

[Lunar]

On the living wish thing...

There seems to be some people questioning this choice of card...Im really wondering why.

The only question really in my mind is the lack of a mishras workshop in the board...while ive heard meandecks reasoning for running tomb over the workshop, I still am left with a sour taste in my mouth with it..

The reasoning I had and was told about from the original belcher decks for running wish in the first place was because it could fetch out workshop...why? because it is then mana acceleration that also can just happen to nab some anti-hate stuff from the board too...

you turn 2 mana into 3 mana when grabbing workshop...while you cannot use this mana to activate belcher, you CAN use it to cast belcher and then save your other 4 mana that you have for actually activating it...

Going 2-2 for ancient tomb can buy you maybe an extra turn of stability (but only if it doesnt get wastelanded...) but it negates the option of using wish as acceleration into a quick belcher...

The fact that you can do silly things like get past needles and null rod because you run wish is just a major bonus really...

what are your thoughts on this?...

granted...the workshop was also a bit more effective with memory jar in the older lists with tinker and whatnot...but I still like the acceleration that it CAN at times give you...I know that there are a number of times where I just barely eeck out 7 mana and it takes some finagleing...id hate to be stuck at 6 some time and not be able to wish for that shop...heh.


As for any other comments around there....Duress pwns face...running at least 3 and sometimes 4 is a must IMO...id hate playing against a control heavey meta any other way...when I rebuilt belcher a while back for some local tourneys amongst friends and my teammates I began with duress and built it from there...playing against control I was something like 16-4 in matches against good players playing Fish CS and Oath (this was shortly before gifts was invented) and I won every match against non control I played in those 2 or 3 tourneys...its too good...in fact my favorite game to mention was one which saw double duress and living wish (perfect for my post here, heh) I duress on my first turn taking force of will then dropping land grant to play a second duress taking a null rod...this leaves the UR fish deck with daze AND a second null rod in hand...I am able to build enough mana on turn 3 or 4 to cast wish AND drop a sex monkey to kill the null rod in play (ESG and Tinder Wall here along with both lands or something like that, maybe a ritual in there as well) which set up for a next turn belcher for the win...I love bringing up that game to show that belcher really CAN get through some nastyness, but only with duress...welder or xantid swarm alone wouldnt have done it...wish as well was a must or that game was over.  double counter and double null rod win on turn 4 or 5 against control...not too shabby IMO.

[Komatteru]

I mean, I really like Swarms, but has anyone tested Grid's yet? 2 In in the Maindeck seem like a nice addition since it's castable with every mana source and not affected by creature hate. (Artifact Hate though ... )
Obviously it's not the most speed oriented card, but it's faster than Swarm to be fair, (If one's able to go off after spending  . ) and it's probably easier to cast than Duress from time to time and probably more effective too.

Not that card again...ok, it doesn't work.  Like ever.  Control decks run enough accel to make the Grid completely worthless (they can still Force on turn 2 almost all of the time), and it's really bad as the game goes longer.  I tried it in Long and it was awful there (cost me a match at Chicago in April, knocking me out of contention).  In Belcher, it would be even worse, as Belcher usually doesn't play more than one threat in a turn, meaning you're not putting control in the position that they can only use one of the pieces of countermagic in their hand.  In addition, Living Wish cannot locate Defense Grid, so it just got even worse.

I once wrote about 3 pages on why Xantid Swarm is infinitely better than Defense Grid (and how I wouldn't even play Grid if I didn't have access to Xantid Swarm for some reason).  Trust me, it's bad.

Tomb, Wish, why no MWS, and so forth...

Here is the mana acceleration in the deck (i.e., cards that produce more mana than they cost to play):
4 Land Grant
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Grim Monolith
1 LED
4 ESG
4 Tinder Wall
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Channel

and to an extent, Taiga and Bayou. Since the deck isn't making regular land drops, the lands function more as acceleration than anything else.  Land Grant is essentially "Mox Land" and the two lands themselves function as the fuel of those moxes.

Count those.  There's 32 pieces of acceleration, 34 if you want to count the lands.  You don't need more acceleration, really.  There's plenty of mana.  However, take a count of those sources.  Of all them, only the 2 Lands, 5 Moxes, Sol Ring, and Mana Crypt are reusable.  That's 9 permanent sources.  Getting 4 mana is often very easy, but having 3 of it stick around for the next turn can be difficult.  You don't need ways to get more mana to cast the Belcher, you need more ways to activate it the next turn.  Being able to turn an ESG mana and a Dark Rit mana into 2 mana that sticks around for the next turn is often invaluable.  Tolarian Academy functions as more acceleration if you really want it.

[Lunar]

you need more ways to activate it the next turn

thats fine and all, its just a different attitude towards the deck from in the past...

in the past it was

"we need more ways to to cast it and activate it THIS turn"

a little difference...yours substitutes a turn of speed possibly for a turn of stability possibly...its not that getting 4 mana is easy...that we know, but its that the old belcher decks wanted 7 mana now, not 4 mana now 3 next turn..Im not really heavily arguing the use of tomb (in fact in the past I had to use tomb often due to proxy considerations...) I was just pointing out this change in attitude towards the deck...the standard argument back then was that tomb wasnt acceleration so it didnt get used...end of story...maybe that was flawed reasoning, but it seemed to work pretty well for the time. As I havnt played belcher for many months now perhaps this use of tomb is more needed these days..I dunno, it just seems like it weakend the possibilities of wish a little to me.

[Klep]

you need more ways to activate it the next turn

yours substitutes a turn of speed possibly for a turn of stability possibly

Not quite. It's not like Tomb is in the maindeck.  As Jdizzle said, getting to 4, hell, getting to 7 or even more in a turn is very easy.  Sometimes that just isn't going to be enough though, and you're going to need to take an additional turn to get Belcher activated.  If that is the case, Mishra's Workshop wasn't going to do anything for you because you can't use it to pay for the activation.  Tomb sacrifices 1 mana for being able to use that mana for whatever you want.

So, to summarize:
1) Tomb over Workshop doesn't slow anything down.  You were going to have plenty of mana in the turn you go off anyway.

2) Tomb is a permanent source which can pay for activations and other random spells, whereas MWS pretty much just helps cast the Belcher.

3) If anything is causing a slow down, it's Living Wish.  Living Wish, however, is a necessary evil because of hate in the form of Chalice, Null Rod, etc. which needs to be dealt with somehow.

[Lunar]

notice though klep the "possibly" after each...I fully understand what JD and others are going for with tomb...as I already stated...this is a deviation from past thinking with the deck.

Often times in the past you could hit 6 mana easy..this meant either waiting a turn like you guys are doing, and going for a more stable long term choice by nabbing tomb, or you can try to win NOW and go with shop...shop for obvious reasons has its pros and cons...

how about if in that turn you are waiting your belcher dies...is shop any worse now?

I just find your statement klep that "if you have 6 then you have 7" is flawed, from playing the deck (now this is with the old build mind you, so dont hold it against me if the new build has something better going for it in terms of one additional mana a turn) I found that having as much mana as fast as possible was gernally the way to go, if this meant getting even one extra mana from somewhere anywhere id take it. 

But your little list Klep after I already stated that I realized all of that stuff about it was really childish, im not a kindegartner and you dont need to patronize me...like I said in the TWO previous posts I fully understand the use of Tomb, and ive used it myself in the past...

JD stated that if you want to grab more mana accel then grab the tolarian academy...

this would be my spot for tomb, id run shop and academy over tomb and academy...if you really need to pay for activations and such then the academy seems like the logical choice if your board features both options, which many do. (at least they did in the past and you always had the option of grabbing academy) Perhaps running tomb is freeing up one extra SB slot that wasnt there before...by adding tomb you can drop academy I guess if you want and just run with 1 land in the board (or maybe a maze if you are really hard up for DSC hate...?)

Anyways, ill drop it, I was just pointing out the differences between now and then...

[Ferrismonk]

I know this is a little off topic and the maindeck is pretty solidified already, but I have 2 questions that I haven't seen addressed yet.

1. Why run Ancient tomb over City of Traitors in the sideboard?  That 2 damage, especially if used over and over, can add up quite quickly.  On top of that, I prefer to use my life for either Channel or Bargain.  It's not exactly like we are going to be playing a lot of lands or anything.

2. Why isn't there a Chrome mox in the deck? Perhaps it would could replace one of the Cabal rituals or the 4th Welder (putting it in the side).  Assuming I've counted correctly, there are 37 (36 if you replace a rit/welder) colored spells in the deck.  By adding the additional mox you are upping the amount of reusable mana sources.  It also decreases the amount of potentially dead cards by giving you the option of another black mana source.

Back on topic, I agree that if anything is slowing us down it is the wish itself, but it IS necessary to add consistency and resiliency to the deck.

[Klep]

notice though klep the "possibly" after each...I fully understand what JD and others are going for with tomb...as I already stated...this is a deviation from past thinking with the deck.

Just because it's what has always been done in no way means it's correct.

Often times in the past you could hit 6 mana easy..this meant either waiting a turn like you guys are doing, and going for a more stable long term choice by nabbing tomb, or you can try to win NOW and go with shop...shop for obvious reasons has its pros and cons...

Tomb also has its pros and cons, but since it is much less restrictive in terms of what you can use the mana for than Workshop is, it wins by a long shot.  In addition to activating Belcher, Tomb can also help cast Bargain, Wheel, DT, and other random spells it mice be nice to cast.  Workshop can cast Chrom Sphere, Mana Vault, and Belcher.

how about if in that turn you are waiting your belcher dies...is shop any worse now?

If your Belcher dies like that then you're probably screwed anyway, regardless of which land you have.

I just find your statement klep that "if you have 6 then you have 7" is flawed, from playing the deck (now this is with the old build mind you, so dont hold it against me if the new build has something better going for it in terms of one additional mana a turn) I found that having as much mana as fast as possible was gernally the way to go, if this meant getting even one extra mana from somewhere anywhere id take it. 

I can tell you that with this build, it is not difficult at all to get to 7 mana assuming a reasonable hand.  The difficult thing is ALWAYS having any mana left around on the next turn.

But your little list Klep after I already stated that I realized all of that stuff about it was really childish, im not a kindegartner and you dont need to patronize me...like I said in the TWO previous posts I fully understand the use of Tomb, and ive used it myself in the past...

Lists aren't condescending, they allow me to clearly and distinctly state a number of points.  I have better things to do than write flowery paragraphs when a list will do what I need just fine. 

JD stated that if you want to grab more mana accel then grab the tolarian academy...

So why do you need Workshop at all?

this would be my spot for tomb, id run shop and academy over tomb and academy...

And this would be the wrong thing to do.  By running Tomb you sacrifice one extra mana for the ability to use your mana for whatever you want.  This makes your lands more versatile, which actually increases stability because as I said, simply reaching 7 mana isn't that difficult in the first place.

1. Why run Ancient tomb over City of Traitors in the sideboard?  That 2 damage, especially if used over and over, can add up quite quickly.  On top of that, I prefer to use my life for either Channel or Bargain.  It's not exactly like we are going to be playing a lot of lands or anything.

Because this deck doesn't ever hurt itself outside of the three mentioned cards, so the damage is largely irrelevant while the City's drawback is not.  You still have other lands you would like to be able to play if given the opportunity.

2. Why isn't there a Chrome mox in the deck?

Because the card disadvantage is far too detrimental.  This deck doesn't have a whole lot of ways to draw as it is. 

[Lunar]

Klep I think you are still misunderstanding me on almost everything...maybe im just explaining myself wrong...

If you are going to run 2 lands in the SB, there seems to be no point in both tomb and academy...correct? They do the same thing and most of the time academy is going to be better at doing the little secondary jobs...having 2 lands that will function in the same manner is redundant and unneeded...Maybe I missed the original list...JD do you run both in the SB?

Workshop and Academy on the other hand always is going to provide 2 things..

1: Acceleration if needed through shop, and many times academy as well.

2: Stability from Academy since you can reuse the mana next turn and each extra turn until it gets wasted away.

About the only time I like both tomb and academy together is if you just happen to hit both living wishes...I rarely found that to be the case in the past, especially since one usually ends up used for anti-hate (heck it gets used as anti hate more often in my experience than for grabbing the extra land...)

Running both is redundant though.

it is not difficult at all to get to 7 mana assuming a reasonable hand

Then why do you need to worry about next turn? if you can get 7 easily then why arent you saving the 3 non shop mana to activate it...do you feel to restricted in your play if you have to use shop for what it is made for? I guess im just too old school belcher for that...you use the mana properly and you dont have to worry about next turn...

Just because it's what has always been done in no way means it's correct.

Just like what you are doing now MIGHT not be correct either...just cause meandeck says jump we shouldnt all say how high. Ill point back to Meandeck Tendrils as an example....heh (cheap shot I know  )

Lists aren't condescending, they allow me to clearly and distinctly state a number of points. 

It wasnt the actual form of using a list that was rude...it was the fact that you restated almost word for word things I had already conceeded to JD, you were redundant and that stuff just irks me thats all...lists are fine (note my use of a short list above) you just sounded like an old school teacher scolding a child for doing his homework wrong, it made me feel like I was writing "klep not kelp" 100 times on the blackboard since I spell it wrong everytime I try to type it.

So why do you need Workshop at all?

Because shop is GARUNTEED mana acceleration from the living wish...academy at times is not...however academy is still better than tomb as the second land since it can be even better than both...

Either you run only academy in the SB, or you run shop and academy...tomb seems like a wasted slot...either that or maybe just tomb and something with colored mana...

Unless im wrong, but here I believe that Academy > Tomb....at both acceleration and extra uses like casting wheel and stuff...

Maybe you can expand on why Tomb+Academy is better than Shop+Academy if you are going to be running 2 lands...and please explain why you guys are all grabbing tomb everytime and not academy anyways.

[policehq]

I personally find Living Wish for Tolarian Academy more redundant than for Ancient Tomb. This deck has a lot of acceleration, yes, but little of it is permanent, and even though you're playing all the artifact acceleration you can, I find myself very little having more than two artifacts in play. That added to the fact that you're risking losing your land to Crop Rotation or a good land drop sacrifices a little bit of stability.

Also, Ancient Tomb accelerates to Yawgmoth's Bargain, which Mishra's Workshop does not.

It is rare that two extra cards will make or break the game after you've activated Yawgmoth's Bargain to a very low (yet safe) life total. So City of Traitors' draw back is a bit worse than Ancient Tomb's there. And then Channel and Ancient Tomb amount to the same amount of life vs. mana, so the difference is irrelevant there as well.

However, in the sideboard slot of Tolarian Academy, I'd rather run another creature.

EDIT: Regarding Chrome Mox, I personally don't think it's that bad. It turns Elvish Spirit Guide into a reusable source, and it has synnergy with your second Land Grant. It depends on what you cut for it, though, because sometimes you get a bunch of black cards and something like 1 Goblin Welder. Given, there aren't many cards that will help you through that situation, or be worse than Chrome Mox, but there are times when you are removing cards that should be played, yet you can't remove anything else because of their color.

[Lunar]

Yeh, id rather have just 1 land in the SB as well...I was just asking that if you wanted to run 2, why would you run tomb AND academy..? Ive seen a lot of people doing it, and it just doesnt make sense, you need to either run tomb OR academy since they ARE redundant...I just find academy to be better...you usually DO have at least 2 artifacts in play which equals the tomb, and at times can have much more.  Running shop and academy (If and only if you are running 2 lands here) garuntees an extra acceleration boost if needed (you dont have to grab that land everytime with wish..but at times getting 1 extra mana is solid...) and also gives you stability in a land that will go several turns.

If you are worried about crop rotation, then every land in that slot is bad anyways, since they can strip it or waste it regardless of which land it is. same goes for a good land drop....

[Klep]

If you are going to run 2 lands in the SB, there seems to be no point in both tomb and academy...correct? They do the same thing and most of the time academy is going to be better at doing the little secondary jobs...having 2 lands that will function in the same manner is redundant and unneeded...Maybe I missed the original list...JD do you run both in the SB?

If there is no point in running both Tomb and Academy then there is no point in running anything more than Academy.  We aren't arguing Tomb v. Academy here, because Academy is obviously better than either of the other 2 lands.  What we are arguing is whether Tomb is better than Workshop, and it is because it allows much more versatility (and hence stability) than Workshop.   All 3 lands provide the exact same thing: permanent mana on your board.  That is generally all you are interested in when you Wish for them, because when you cast Living Wish it almost always means you are unable to win with what you have, and you need to set up to win on a later turn.  The acceleration is to a degree irrelevant, because your deck is already half-accelerants, and you are highly likely to draw/have more of them.  The problem is that a lot of these accelerants cost mana, and so to use them you need mana on the board.

The reason you run 2 lands in the sideboard is simple.  You have the space, and you have 2 Living Wish's in the maindeck.  It is conceivable you might want to use both to get a land, so why not allow for that option?

Workshop and Academy on the other hand always is going to provide 2 things..

1: Acceleration if needed through shop, and many times academy as well.

2: Stability from Academy since you can reuse the mana next turn and each extra turn until it gets wasted away.

You aren't interested in acceleration too much from your sideboard lands, because accelerating of the top of your deck isn't a problem.  Mana base stability is, and in that situation Tomb is a clear victor over Workshop.

Running both is redundant though.

And this deck could use some redundancy.

it is not difficult at all to get to 7 mana assuming a reasonable hand

Then why do you need to worry about next turn? if you can get 7 easily then why arent you saving the 3 non shop mana to activate it...do you feel to restricted in your play if you have to use shop for what it is made for? I guess im just too old school belcher for that...you use the mana properly and you dont have to worry about next turn...

Because if you are going after your sideboard lands, it means you had to cast Living Wish instead of a Belcher.  That means that you already aren't planning to win this turn and are looking to the future.  While it isn't difficult at all to get to 7 mana, it can be difficult to find a Belcher once you have done so.  Living Wish allows you to recover from that kind of situation by wishing for a land to increase your mana stability.  Again, acceleration isn't the issue.

Just because it's what has always been done in no way means it's correct.

Just like what you are doing now MIGHT not be correct either...just cause meandeck says jump we shouldnt all say how high. Ill point back to Meandeck Tendrils as an example....heh (cheap shot I know  )

But I never said what we are doing now is right because it's what we are doing now.  Also, I'm not on Meandeck and never really thought Meandeck Tendrils was that amazing (theoretically interesting, yes. But not good).

[Lunar]

The original reasoning behind tomb not shop was attributed by JD to the rest of his team in a tourney report on it....I never said you were in meandeck, I just needed an example of good thinking gone wrong....

it means you had to cast Living Wish instead of a Belcher

It is conceivable that you CAN do both in a turn with this deck.....in fact it happens more often than many might think (at least its happened to me...maybe thats why I like shop, my personal experiences with the deck has this scenario happening maybe a decent percentage more than what the "average" amount of times it should really happen...)

If you want to run extra lands in the SB beyond 1 academy, have you guys considered adding the extra (like in the old versions which ran 3 or 4 lands in the SB) dual or gemstone or city or whatnot? Could acadamy/gemstone or city be a better pair of lands than tomb/acadamy? Conceivably you dont need 2 differnent 2 mana lands right, this would give you the option as well to help fix your mana to cast something you dont immediatly have a color for....is this less important now without blue in the deck???

While it isn't difficult at all to get to 7 mana, it can be difficult to find a Belcher once you have done so

then why are you wasting your 7 mana before you can win? Shouldnt you be holding onto that 7 mana for when you actually need it...what other uses are you using that 7 mana up on if it isnt belcher??? I understand losing a few to deal with hate or something, but it seems like you arent using your mana efficiently to me........thats just what it sounds like, and I could be interpreting you incorectly on this one....

because when you cast Living Wish it almost always means you are unable to win with what you have

where does it say that you cannot use living wish proactivly in a positive manner...living wish should be a tool beyond just trying not to lose...it should help you win...sounds like you are looking at a glass half empty when you should be looking at either just half a glass or a glass half full....cant wish be used as both a defensive AND an offensive weapon???

[Luiggi]

Putting aside this debate over the SB (since we don't really seem to be making much progress on it), do people think a deck like Belcher is a decent choice to take to a tournament like the Waterbury? If the expected metagame will be Control Slaver and Gifts, but not much Stax, would Belcher be a decent option, and why? Should we move some amount of Xantid Swarms to the maindeck, to improve those matchups, or will Duress + Living Wish help us enough in Game 1 of those matchups? I'm considering running this at Waterbury, so I wanted other people's input and reasoning.

Luiggi

[policehq]

I'm sorry, but I can't possibly agree that Tolarian Academy is ALWAYS better than Ancient Tomb, the point is moot because 2 mana would be sufficient anyway.

Tolarian Academy dies to combo decks that are able to find it more ably, and if you have three or more artifacts in play, you're probably doing well for yourself so far.

I know that we're kind of stuck in three arguments here. I think the Mishra's Workshop thing is obvious because it doesn't activate Goblin Charbelcher, which is often difficult to do, especially after a mulligan or three, but under those circumstances (mulliganing), Tolarian Academy really isn't that hot either.

I get hands like Tinder Wall, Elvish Spirit Guide, Dark Ritual, Duress, Land Grant, Goblin Charbelcher, Mox X way more often than stuff like Mox Mox Mox Lotus Belcher, and even with those hands, Wishing for the Academy is a mistake.

[Klep]

it means you had to cast Living Wish instead of a Belcher

It is conceivable that you CAN do both in a turn with this deck.....in fact it happens more often than many might think (at least its happened to me...maybe thats why I like shop, my personal experiences with the deck has this scenario happening maybe a decent percentage more than what the "average" amount of times it should really happen...)

But why would you?  Only if you don't already have enough mana to activate that turn. The only time you'd want Workshop over Tomb in this case is if you have fewer than 3 artifacts (so you aren't getting Academy) AND can generate exactly 6 mana (or if for some reason you're at 2 life but haven't won yet).  In every other instance Tomb is AT LEAST as good, and generally better.

If you want to run extra lands in the SB beyond 1 academy, have you guys considered adding the extra (like in the old versions which ran 3 or 4 lands in the SB) dual or gemstone or city or whatnot? Could acadamy/gemstone or city be a better pair of lands than tomb/acadamy? Conceivably you dont need 2 differnent 2 mana lands right, this would give you the option as well to help fix your mana to cast something you dont immediatly have a color for....is this less important now without blue in the deck???

Between the Chrome Spheres and 2 dauls in the deck, additional color fixing is not really necessary.  The reason Tomb is used over another dual or mine or something is because Tomb by itself puts you 2/3rds of the way to activation mana in a permanent source.  That means you only need to find one more mana to activate, instead of 2.

While it isn't difficult at all to get to 7 mana, it can be difficult to find a Belcher once you have done so

then why are you wasting your 7 mana before you can win? Shouldnt you be holding onto that 7 mana for when you actually need it...what other uses are you using that 7 mana up on if it isnt belcher??? I understand losing a few to deal with hate or something, but it seems like you arent using your mana efficiently to me........thats just what it sounds like, and I could be interpreting you incorectly on this one....

Well obviously if you're holding a couple rituals but there's no way to get a Belcher in sight you aren't going to go casting them willly-nilly and then burn.  My point is that there are many more hands that are capable of generating 7 mana than there are hands that have or can get Belcher, and that resultantly concerns over getting to 7 mana with this deck should not be much of an issue in your sideboard construction.

because when you cast Living Wish it almost always means you are unable to win with what you have

where does it say that you cannot use living wish proactivly in a positive manner...living wish should be a tool beyond just trying not to lose...it should help you win...sounds like you are looking at a glass half empty when you should be looking at either just half a glass or a glass half full....cant wish be used as both a defensive AND an offensive weapon???

Living Wish can be an offensive weapon in very few circumstances.  The very specific case I already mentioned, when you have enough artifacts to make fetching Academy worthwhile, and when they print a cheap creature or land that lets you get a Belcher.  As I've said before, it's inclusion is a necessary evil, because there are cards out there that Belcher will straight up lose to if it did not have this out.

[forests failed you]

I think that Swarm is really good in this deck.  For the most part control decks, such as Gifts and Slaver, have very few ways to deal with it when it slips through their counter wall on turn one.  At most they each pack one quick kill spell, a bounce spell, and Slaver has Tinker.  A turn one Xantid Swarm will draw out a Drain deck's Force of Will, it has to, they really have very little choice; which is exactly what Duress does, take Force of Will away from their hand.  However, turn one Swarm also takes a blue card and a life with it.  Not to mention if it resolves its just Gravy because there is a very good chance you can 'just win.' on your next turn. 

Another bonus of Swarm is that if you draw 7 via an uncounterable swarm induced Wheel, they can't play the Force of Wills or Mana Drains they might have drawn off the new 7.  If you Duress away a Force to make sure Wheel resolves they can alway draw more counterspells.  I know my friend who is testing the deck is playing some combination of both iin the maindeck, I believe it is 4 Duress and two Swarm. 

The main reason I think Duress is better in this deck isn't that it is necessarily the better card, as it is the fact that the deck makes a lot of black mana and therefore it is a less precious commodity that green mana.  Duress is cool because it lets you win now off a Dark Ritual, however, Xantid Swarm is broken because it almost ensures a victory when it resolves turn 1.

[Luiggi]

Some really interesting points, Brian. What do you think you would cut from the maindeck to fit in some number of Xantid Swarms? The cards that immediately jump to mind are Living Wish and Tainted Pact, but the Wishes offer a lot of versatility, as we've been discussing, and give you more ways of finding a Swarm anyway, as well as solutions to Chalice, Null Rod, etc. The Pact is also really nice, since it can randomly find you bombs/get rid of chaff, as has been said here.

Going by JD's latest decklist (from here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=24633.0), I didn't see anything else that I would immediately consider cutting. Thoughts?

Luiggi

[Komatteru]

If I felt I needed Xantid Swarm in the maindeck, that would indicate that the metagame contained a significant number of control decks.  In that case, I would just play Storm combo since it beats the hell out of Mana Drain.  In my opinion, there's no point in playing Belcher in a control-heavy field--i.e., there's no reason to look for cards to cut to add Xantid Swarms to the maindeck.  Storm combo is just plain better against Mana Drain, and Belcher is just plain better against Workshops.

You don't want to be cutting business spells for protection.  You don't want to remove versatility and tutors, which are good in any match, to add cards that are only good in certain matches.  That weakens the deck considerably and makes it overall less consistant.  The role of Xantid Swarm in the maindeck Long (reference my last list) is very much synergystic with the overall goal of the deck--play 10 spells in one turn followed by Tendrils, since the way to do that is to play one or two bombs in a row.  Bombs have this tendancy of not resolving, and Xantid Swarm either 1) lets you resolve them, or 2) draws out countermagic so you can resolve them.  It's the ultimate catch-22 for the Mana Drain player.  Storm combo decks topdeck a lot better than Belcher does because they have a few more threats as well as Brainstorm (the most important card in facilitating better topdecks), so they can afford to use Xantid Swarm as a threat and sit on it for a few turns.  Opening with Land, resolved Xantid Swarm, land, Moxes, Brainstorm, bomb is often how storm combo will play it out.  Belcher can't do that, so your maindeck Xantids aren't functioning as bombs, per se.

Plus, Welder fills that role in Belcher; after you get it down, all you need to do is play the Belcher and you will win.  It doesn't have to resolve, you just have to have it.  Your goal is to play one spell, not 10, so you don't always need the bombs.  They're there to facilitate the finding of the Belcher.

[forests failed you]

I will consult Jon Wilkerson who has made vast innovations and improvements to the list tonight when I play Standard.  Hopefully I can post an updated list sometime this weekend.  We have cut Pact and Living Wish from the maindeck, I know that for sure.  Both seemed clunky.

I disagree that Belcher is weaker against control than Tendrils.  If anything it seems to be slightly more consistent and have a higher threat density.  Although if our testing is accurate I am pretty sure that Grim Long will render this deck pretty much obselete anyways.  Either way I hope to have our current list up within the next few days.

Also, Xantid Swarm is not protection.  It is a bomb against control, and it is very difficult to answer on time..  It says "I win and you can't stop me" on turn two.

[Lunar]

Also, Xantid Swarm is not protection.  It is a bomb against control, and it is very difficult to answer on time..  It says "I win and you can't stop me" on turn two.

correct me if im wrong, but generally duress and goblin welder say the same thing for belcher already...and in many cases can do it even better (especially in the case of welder)

I also believe that storm is a better solution to a control meta...control can often times just wait and counter 1 or 2 key spells against belcher, where storm can throw down a much larger list of "must counters" Each piece in something like Long isnt always as powerful, but each becomes more and more important to counter as the turn goes on...a lot of times 1 or 2 counters in a turn where long wants to go off isnt going to do it, where as against belcher that is generally plenty...

Living wish I think it has been pretty agreed upon by almost everybody here as being a must have evil in the deck...sometimes it is going to feel clunky, but its the times where you just lose if you dont have it that it really shines. (heh, obviously)

[cophos]

I disagree that Belcher is weaker against control than Tendrils.  If anything it seems to be slightly more consistent and have a higher threat density.  Although if our testing is accurate I am pretty sure that Grim Long will render this deck pretty much obselete anyways.  Either way I hope to have our current list up within the next few days.

Also, Xantid Swarm is not protection.  It is a bomb against control, and it is very difficult to answer on time..  It says "I win and you can't stop me" on turn two.

It is weaker vs Control due to the lack(!) of threat density. The Deck basically's Mana and the Belchers. (Plus some "random" Bombs) It's not comparable to a deck like long were most cards just spell GG for your opponent. Belchers best way to win is to drop a Belcher First or Second Turn vs no (or only little) resistance. The deck's not able to play through a counterwall effectively very often, additionally the topdeck's are weak compared to other combodecks, and btw it's pretty inconsistant compared to others too.
I also thought about cutting Wishes in the beginning, but I started to like it more and more. It provides some pretty important tools.
EDIT: Yeah, a bit late...

[forests failed you]

I refuse to believe that there is a such thing as a must have evil.  The only thing I ever did with it was get Academy or Swarm, or if I needed it to find an answer I found that it was too slow and that by the time I had it I lost anyways.  I'd much rather just play a Swarm in its place.  That is just my style, I don't like to dick around with solutions that only matter sometimes.  The same goes for Tainted Pact, I would always flip over Welders or Charbelchers when I was looking for a mana boost.  So we cut them from the list.  The deck already has so much business that I think cutting two crap business spells for two MD cards that solidify your difficult match up is a perfectly viable option.  Don't forget that you don't need to play ten spells in a turn to win the way that Tendrils does, so there is no added incentive to continue going broken.  You just have to play one spell and activate it targeting your opponent.

[Luiggi]

I tend to agree with those that are saying that Belcher has fewer bombs relative to Long. What bombs do we have in, say, JD's latest build:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Goblin Welder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence

In a typical Long build (I'll use JD's from GenCon), we have the following bombs:

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
4 Death Wish
1 Burning Wish
2 Xantid Swarm

(If I'm missing something feel free to point it out.)

Judging by these lists, Long has a decent advantage over Belcher in terms of numbers. Additionally, though, the difference is that more of Long's bombs lead to additional bombs, that in turn lead to winning.

Brian: what else are you counting as threats/bombs in Belcher? From my experience playing it I found that, as many other have said, you might have a hand full of ridiculous acceleration, but with only one true threat, generally a Belcher or a way to find a Belcher. Especially if you lead with Land Grant, your opponent knows the one thing he needs to counter, and if he does it can really wreck your day. My experience with Long is much more limited than with Belcher, but it seems like it has way more must-counter spells, as other were saying.

Luiggi

[Lunar]

I look at living wish vs something like Xantid MD like this

Xantid wins some games that you might win anyways with duress/welder

Wish wins games that you had no right having any business even thinking about winning...

For example...in my area most fish players are still doing the null rod thing, and other budget players play it as well...couple that with the fact that several of the better players near me play vromana mono red list with null rods and you have xantid swarm being just a joke...xantid limits yourself to a MD answer to control...how many tournaments (even when a big chunk is one style) do you play that you go against say 7 control decks in 7 rounds...?  Having xantids might shore up that match and get you wins in 3 or even 4 of those rounds, but then you are weakening yourself against all the other decks in the format who are going to have hate to deal with beyond counters....

Maybe what you need to find is some way to make living wish itself more of a bomb...its kinda related to what I was trying to express above with klep (dammit I did it again, I always type kELp) maybe we just need to work on 1 other thing in the SB to make living wish more potent for you...I know JDs Negator idea was pretty sweet....

[Luiggi]

Would it be really bad to move 1 Welder to the SB? I know we'd rather draw one naturally then have to burn a Wish on one, but it would effectively up our number of Welders by one, even if it slows down copies 4-5... I do agree that we need to make Living Wish more of a bomb, though...

Luiggi

[Lunar]

might not be too bad...what do you propose putting in that spot MD, and what would you drop from the SB though?

I dont think we need more MD mana or even mana fixers (as we have kinda beat that subject to death)

when portal is legal this makes a nice extra spot for seal....any thoughts there?

[Luiggi]

Imperial Seal sounds like a pretty good replacement, once it's legal. A few cards occurred to me that we could run until then: the 4th Duress, a Regrowth, or a Spoils of the Vault.

The 4th Duress is the least exciting option, since it's not giving us another bomb. Disruption is always good, though.

Regrowth isn't a bad option, since sometimes we really need to get back something that was countered (YWill, for example), a Belcher (if we don't have a Welder in play), a Tutor or even a Duress/Land Grant. Yes we have Eternal Witness in the SB to Wish for, but that involves a 2GGG investment to get a card back, whereas Regrowth is just cheaper.

Spoils of the Vault is another option, since it's relatively safe to Spoils for a 4-of like Belcher, Ritual, etc., and since we don't damage ourselves with anything else but Channel and Bargain (unless we Wish for an Ancient Tomb, ), it doesn't seem like it'd be a liability. It's another 1cc instant-speed tutor that puts the card directly into our hand, so it can't be all bad. I don't know that I would run more then 1 or 2 Spoils, but 1 seems fine as a filler, since it should always fetch a 4-of.

Alternatively we could run another Tainted Pact, but it can randomly be awful, so I think a Spoils would be better.

Of these options I'm leaning towards Regrowth or Spoils. Thoughts?

Luiggi