The Lack of Tog in the U.S.

[Disburden]

First off, I would like to say that I have never started a new thread before, so I hope I meet all the standards required in this post. If not, I will not be offended with a move to Newbie.

 With a big Top 8 appearance this year at Gencon Tog proved once again that it can seriously compete in almost any environment. The big ol' question to all of you is; why isn't anyone playing Tog anymore?

 Here is Joshua Frankelin's list from Gencon:

3 Psychatog

1 ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gush
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox jet
1 Mox sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald

4 Tropical Island
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea

SB:

1 Berserk
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Ground Seal
2 Energy Flux
3 Duress
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Naturalize

 I really liked his Three Color List without red and started playtesting right away. I've always had a soft spot for the big monster and wanted to try it out. The list is great!

 I hear one of the big reasons people are afraid of Tog now is that Tink- Colossus is a huge threat to the Tog. It can come out faster and kill you before you even draw your cards to pump Hulk up. But I press the point that Tog has run its own Tinker with Colossus backup in Europe quite often the past few months, and with great results. So why not just run Tog with Tinker- Colossus as answer?

 One of the problems with Joshua's list that I see is the mana base. I actually think this list can get away with running at least one more Island and one less Tropical Island. Since the green spells are wish Targets I don't see the need to reveal a green dual unless it's necessary. I haven't seen any reports by this player or what changes he would've made, but it would be nice to hear from him in a report.

 Another question is whether red is needed at all? I don't think so. The lists from Europe that cut green to use Fling in the Sideboard as a deal sealer seemed awkward to me, I think berserk is a lot better, since you can get huge and swing. Berserk makes Togs bigger than they usually would be with Fling.

 I like that.

So with Tog placing in the Top 8 at Gencon, and with Europe still showing us the deck is still awesome; why aren't we playing it that much over here? Are people scared it can't compete anymore, or are we just sick of seeing the gold monster?

[Koeka]

im playing T1T wich i think is much better it has more disruption main, and is better in taking control, altough this list is much faster, i would play T1T if i were you, because it also has an awnser against colossus tinker colossus

[Revvik]

I'm still alive!!!
In fact, for a decent four-color controllish build, check out the list I piloted to 9th at the last Star City Chicago.
Currently though, I have a UBg build running - a throwback to my very first Tog list.  And yes, only three Tropicals are necessary, but having four doesn't matter that much.  I even run two Deeds - one main and one sideboarded.

The biggest loss from cutting red right now happens to be the loss of Gorilla Shaman - not Red Blast or Rack & Ruin as most people assume (for me anyways - Franklin probably has many differing views).

There's a few differences between mine and Franklin's list, but it all boils down to this: Mine is the control, his is the combo.  Those are the focusing roles, and right now I'm not sure which one is the better.  It probably boils down to play style.

Yes, Fling is ass compared to Berserk.  Berserk is twice as fast if there is even one blocking creature - a huge benefit even at sorcery speed.  Fling is also Misdirectable - a huge drawback against Meandeck Gifts.

As for why people don't play Togs anymore:
This is highly debatable.  It could be any one of 'Togs weaknesses to the following:
* Being hit with Mindslaver can be an autoloss
* Sundering Titan
* Wasteland
* "Better" Control Decks available (I disagree strongly)
* Fear of Fish
Although this last one isn't true anymore - Fish decks don't run the cards that injure Tog anymore, because Tog has stopped being a force in the metagame (outside of Michigan).

One thing Josh and I hit on: Merchant Scroll is huge.  It allows compactment of 'Tog's draw engine and is a solid tutor for any of the following gamebreaking spells:
Ancestral Recall
AK #4
Fact or Fiction/Gush (Fact only in my build)
Cunning Wish
And it can also do some nifty tricks with Brainstorm, providing additional shuffle effects and card selection.

Generally, Tinker Colossus results in a dead card (Colossus) or two (both), along with the problem of fitting more artifacts into your deck, weakening Tog to Chalice of the Void and Null Rod.  Part of the strength of my builds is its resiliency to those hate cards while still giving me the biggest 3cc creature in the game: Psychatog (not Colossus).

[Disburden]

im playing T1T wich i think is much better it has more disruption main, and is better in taking control, altough this list is much faster, i would play T1T if i were you, because it also has an awnser against colossus tinker colossus

 This list runs four Cunning Wish. This to me seems way to dependant on finding answers and threats in your sideboard to win the game. I don't like this method of winning the game. Plus it also uses Fling, which I hate.  Regular Tog can use more SB slots to pit  matchup hate than just wishable targets like draw spells (Gush). Running Tinker-Colossus in the Side seems to be less clumbsy than running it main and having trouble with dead cards in your hand.

 Either way though, this is preference and I prefer regular Tog. I don't use any less than two maindecked.

  The question still remains:

  Why isn't Tog played anymore?  I Think you can play around Control Slaver if you know what you are doing in the matchup and sideboard accordingly.

[Polynomial P]

Why isn't Tog played anymore? I Think you can play around Control Slaver if you know what you are doing in the matchup and sideboard accordingly.

Disburden, I think you hit it on the nose here. Tog no longer has autowin matchups as CS and Gifts can come close to it in card draw while laying more threats and MWS decks can grind out the win vs Tog. It can be piloted by competent players, but the most skilled players have been playing CS, Gifts, or Stax as they have better matchups across the board. Tog cannot be piloted well be an incompetent player, thus forcing more people to steer away from it initially and gravitate to easier/more resilient decks.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

1) The presence of Gifts. Yes, merchant scroll is "insane" in tog, but it's even better in gifts. Gifts can combo out faster (via tendrils) and isn't dependant on answers and small creatures (lets be honest, 4c tog, or T1T can't get tog lethal until after turn 4). Franklin's list is pretty savage, but I can't see it beating Gifts without duress. At the last SCG, my teammate beat Franklin with gifts simply because he was faster and set up a faster/more disgusting will.

2) Incompetence of Tog players. This is not meant to be a flame, so don't take it as such. This boils down to the fact that many tog players don't know what the hell they're doing. Since the format has sped up so much, you have to play it flawlessly (and not to mention have the right build) if you expect to win. Metagaming with the deck is CRUCIAL. I know for a fact Franklin's list changes drastically at each tourney he plays in. Hopefully he'll chime in.

As for the colors, I think UBr is still the way to go. Seriously, berserk is cool and whatnot, but most of the time, after you've cast AK3, tog is pretty much lethal. Think about most good decks are running mana crypt and like 5+ fetches. Red offers REB, which is by and far one of the biggest bombs against Gifts, probably your worst matchup. Slaver can be rough, but it should still be favorable. I do, however, like Franklin's list, as I saw him combo out against TPS on turn 3.

Basically, to answer your question, people don't play tog because there are much better options. It's no longer the fastest drain combo deck and if you want to play a deck that wins in the mid-late game, CS is right up your ally.

-Bob

[PacmanXSA]

Having played Josh when we were 3-1 at GenCon, and knowing him somewhat personally,  I can tell ya one thing for sure; this deck is certainly metagamed.  He played it very well and has been playign with Tog since I can remember.  He played flawlessly and definitely deserved his spot, even though it eliminated ME

Anyways, I'm sure he'll stop in.

Pac

[Revvik]

Clown: I've faced a myriad of "incompetent" 'Tog players in my time, so I won't disagree entirely with that post.
I change 'Tog up every month or so, unless I'm about to enter into a tournament - in which case I give my current list a complete revamp.  I also know Josh Franklin makes tweaks to his list (or overhauls it entirely) just about every time I see him play it.

Lately I've been in the mindset that Red is superfluous.  Red Blast is okay against control decks, Duress is as well.  I'm not sure now which is better, but utilizing Red opens you up to Wasteland even more, so I'm leaning towards Duress more than Red Blast.
I maindeck two Duresses, and often have a third in the board.  Fetching out an early Underground Sea for Duress never happens with only two maindecked, and I recognize it as just a bad move in general.

Red also offers Rack & Ruin.  I'm using a few different replacements right now for my usual complement of 2 R&R's and Artifact Mutation - 2 Energy Fluxes, Hurkyl's Recall (fetchable with a Merchant Scroll opening) and single Naturalize.  Combine this with 2 Pernicious Deeds between the deck and board.  What's strange is how Franklin and I have come to some of the same conclusions without any collaboration 

So obviously Red was the color to cut - although it gave some answers that I'll miss, I can't see myself EVER cutting Green.

A word on Psychatog versus Control Slaver (not a matchup analysis):
Here's what I've come to realize about the two.  Psychatog as a deck has a win condition that is synergistic with the deck in its entirety and takes up very little mainboard slots, allowing space for many answers and a great control base.  The kill is incredibly powerful and can even happen very early.
Control Slaver has an engine that takes up multiple mainboard slots and is playable due to several inner synergies that result in a powerful but generally very tight list, allowing fewer mainboard slots for answers and a weaker control base.  However, the answers it does have are incredibly powerful and widely applied: a Mindslaver activation.

I honestly think Control Slaver has an edge against Psychatog simply because that Mindslaver activation is particularly devastating to the Psychatog deck, which is why when playing against Slaver decks, I keep the mindset of "Prevent that activation."  If I can, I usually win.  But it's that fear that forces me to run things like 3 Ground Seal in my board, along with a singleton Snuff Out as a Wish target despite better alternatives - Snuff Out happens to hit Welders earlier than alternatives AND kill some bigger stuff as well.
Even when running Red I opted for Lava Dart as a Wish target, which cost me an entire tournament - Firestorm would have saved the day multiple times.

Gifts Ungiven control doesn't bother me - especially after I tore apart my 8th round opponent at SCG Chicago.  I'm probably overgeneralizing here, I'll be doing more and more testing with each of those lists.

Either way, I actually would like to hear Franklin's thoughts on this.  His voice is better heard than mine on this topic.  His is the voice of reason, mine is the voice of arrogance and... um... the opposite of logic... sometimes.

[jpmeyer]

Tog is basically a Gifts deck that requires more colors and more setup.

[Kowal]

Tog spends a lot of turns and a lot of mana doing nothing.  That's not an efficient way to win games.

[Anders Noer]

Tog spends a lot of turns and a lot of mana doing nothing.  That's not an efficient way to win games.

I know that this is spoken out with this in mind --> , but I just have to stress (just this once), that Tog is one of the most powerful concoction of cards - It is basically Draw and Disruption + bombs and only 2-3 slots spent on winning. Very few decks abuse the three dukes of doom: Time Walk, Ancestral Recall and Yawgmoth's Will as well as Tog does. It is a very tight deck and quite versatile being able to combo out aggro and Out-control Combo. If you're playing in a stax-less meta, you might want to give Tog a try. (Hey, that's me!)

This being said, I agree with your . Tog uses a lot of time to 'set up'. Gifts, Stax and Slaver decks do this more brutally and explosively, so I see what you're saying..
It does nothing for the first turns besides disrupting and drawing cards, but whoops - suddenly you have a yardfull of goodness, and can suddenly just win from there.. Not as synergistic as Slaver in its card interactions, but pretty darn close.

[monSt4r]

Tog spends a lot of turns and a lot of mana doing nothing.  That's not an efficient way to win games.

Doing nothing ? I don't remember that drawing cards is that bad...I was thinking about a new psychatog and suddenly it went live. I'll post my list later, but the thing is : tog is a very solid deck that should be feared. With 4x Merchant Scroll's instead of Deep's + 1x intuition or something similar u get very compact deck that can outdraw (people forget about this part of the game it seems) and outcounter(drawing+scrolling+duressing). And don't forget that theory psychatog is like anti necropotence, cause it shure can win fast.

I'll edit my post with decklist when I get the time.
Just a though = I like red more then green, but maybe going with 3x Volcanic and 1x Tropical just for berserk is not so bad as it seems...

[jeremy_78]

If you're playing in a stax-less meta, you might want to give Tog a try. (Hey, that's me!)

I honestly think that Tog's best matchup are shop decks.  Last winter my former teamate and I were able to slice through the rounds in a mox tourney in chicago with Italian tog lists.  4 cunning wishes main is big advantage vs most shop decks.  5/3 used to be a harder matchup than stax, due to the speed it had, especially when it could play 4 3spheres, making it more reliable.  But post sb the abliity to have 5-6 (counting c-wishes) rack N ruins is usually too much for shop.  The only shop list I had trouble with is 7/10, for most of the obvious reasons, that the big guy destroys your land base.  I still feel that instant speed draw is the way to go, and even though Franklin did well, I cant see the need for four mercant scrolls, but thats probably due to my more controllish play style.

[Kowal]

Let me rephrase.  Tog spends a lot of time and mana doing things that don't win the game.  Every time Tog is casting something, your opponent is doing something better.

When Tog is casting Duress, Control Slaver is casting Goblin Welder.
When Tog is casting Intuition, Control Slaver is casting Thirst for Knowledge.
When Tog is casting Accumulated Knowledge, Control Slaver already won the game.

Congratulations, you just spent your first three turns drawing a couple cards instead of winning the game.  Obviously there are additional complications.  It's complications like these that let the better players like Josh Franklin still make an occasional top eight appearance with Tog.  However, a vast majority of Tog's games will look like this, because every other deck in the format makes better investments of time and mana.

[forests failed you]

Franklin and I designed this deck the night before GenCon after looking at a field full of Stax.  Tog does not lose to Stax, especially not this list.  Engergy Flux is an absolute beating, and we opted to play green instead of red so that we would have access to Naturalize instead of Rack and Ruin.  The two main cards that beat Tog that Stax has access to are In the Eye of Chaos, and possibly even more devestating, Chains of Mephostopholes.  And unlike Rack and Ruin, going to green route gives you an answer to almost every single threat in their deck.  Not to mention access to Ground Seal, Deed, and Berserk.  We also figured that playing green over red gave us a better matchup against UW fish, which is a surprisingly awful matchup for Tog because of Pernicious Deed.

The four Merchant Scrolls are insane in Tog.  The quickly find Recall, Force of Will, Mana Drain and Intuition, and allow the Tog deck to execute its game plan very consistently.  Also, it can randomly find AK for four after an intution, or the maindeck Echoing Truth.  I didn't like it on paper either, until we began to playtest  the list and found that it was really consistent. 

[jpmeyer]

Let me rephrase. Tog spends a lot of time and mana doing things that don't win the game. Every time Tog is casting something, your opponent is doing something better.

When Tog is casting Duress, Control Slaver is casting Goblin Welder.
When Tog is casting Intuition, Control Slaver is casting Thirst for Knowledge.
When Tog is casting Accumulated Knowledge, Control Slaver already won the game.

Congratulations, you just spent your first three turns drawing a couple cards instead of winning the game. Obviously there are additional complications. It's complications like these that let the better players like Josh Franklin still make an occasional top eight appearance with Tog. However, a vast majority of Tog's games will look like this, because every other deck in the format makes better investments of time and mana.

Or:

Tog casts Intuition
Tog casts AK
Tog casts Deep Analysis

vs.

Gifts casts Gifts

Yes, Tog drew more cards but it had to do significantly more "work" to progress to the same position as Gifts in terms of how far along both decks are in executing their strategery so that they can win.

[keratinx]

Psychatog has a chance to become a contender again. The hard thing is that it needs A LOT of testing and proper timing. Eg. When to cast Cunning Wish for a solution, etc. It's becoming like 3cC but it has a more stable mana base and quicker win condition. Tinker/Colossus proves to be a faster victory, hence decks recently play with a Tinker and Darksteel Colossus inside, with only 1-2 Psychatogs. With so many combo in the field thanks to Gifts Ungiven, Duress has became strong again. Psychatog has like 2 Duresses and 1 Mind Twist in the mainboard to allow it to assume control in the early to late game. This is the list I'm currently testing and has proven good results against the bad match-ups.

Mana (24)

4 Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria

Protection (10)

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress

Bombs (3)

1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind twist

Kill Condition (3)

1 Psychatog
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Engineered Explosives (good against Oath, Welders - suprisingly)

Draw/Search (21)

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Intuition
4 Cunning Wish
2 Deep Analysis
1 Mystical Tutor/Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor

SIDEBOARD (15)

1 Fact or Fiction (draw)
1 Firestorm (Fish and its variants)
1 Fling (win condition for Tog, DSC)
1 Hurkly's Recall (Stan and its variants)
1 Lava Dart (Welders, this is better than Fire/Ice)
2 Misdirection (Cunning Wishable)
2 Rack and Ruin (Aggro Workshop)
1 Red Elemental Blast (4/3Cc, Tog, Gifts, D4rg0n...)
1 Rushing River (opposing DSC, Oath - this is better than Eching Truth, Planar Void, Chains)
1 Skeletal Scrying (synergy with Cunning Wish)
1 Snuff Out (Exalted Angels)
1 Stifle (storm)

- I had a test session with Suicide Black Control, I had to play all 3 games with either Chains, Void or any of that hedious combination. Suffice to say, I won all that match-ups. The key is being patient, and knowing when to cast Cunning Wish for Rushing River

- Cunning Wish/MisD is good play here as well.

- Firestorm proved its usefulness against Fish, along with mainboarded Engineered Explosives.

- Skeletal Scrying > VT in the sideboard as it has synergistic factors with Cunning Wish

- The deck runs 4 Cunning Wishes and it seems to me that this deck is more geared towards using Cunning Wish EFFECTIVELY to control the game. The key is to control, not to out broken.

[Draven]

Psychatog has like 2 Duresses and 1 Mind Twist in the mainboard to allow it to assume control in the early to late game.

Duress is very good against Gifts, however Mind Twist is HORRIBLE. Not only is MT a juicy Drain target, but it is also great MisD target. If Gifts get a 5-6 mana Drain burst out of MT, you lose. If Gifts MisD's the MT you lose. It really is crap-tastic against Gifts.

I used to be a realy big MT advocate back in the Keeper days, however now days, it just isn't hot. With the graveyard being the resource it is now (Gifts, Welder, Dragon, Will etc) Mind Twist is not the hottness it used to be.

[Revvik]

Oh, I LOVE Mind Twist.  It's just that it's always the first thing I board out against Meandeck Gifts.  Obviously.
Another thing that helps in control matchups is a maindecked Boseiju.  When it's out, I only have to use my counterspells to stop them, not protect mine.

[onelovemachine]

So many people don't actually understand anything about tog.  All of you bash on my deck and its "random" appearance at Gencon, but few of you know even what the deck does.  I have been doing well with Tog for a VERY long time.  This deck was PERFECTLY metagamed for the day.  I lost to dragon because I mis-sideboarded and forgot to deal with Xantid Swarm  :shock: . 

I would have written a primer for my tog list, but I figured no one would believe me and I wanted to use it at future SCG tournaments.  Until someone wrote something about it I had no reason to even mention it.  I won't try to convince you tog is good.  Right now I am playing a gifts variant.  But I will tell you a few things I have learned to be misconceptions.

merchant scroll is "insane" in tog, but it's even better in gifts 

This, Clown, is a clear misconception.  I don't mean to sound rude, but you didn't playtest this build of tog EVER.  Merchant scroll fulfills the same roll in tog as it does in gifts, only in tog it finds a greater array and more powerful cards.  The most notable of which are in THIS order:
Recall
Gush
Big AK
Echoing Truth
Cunning wish
Fact or fiction
Intuition

Merchant scroll speeds up tog in a way that hasn't been seen since the 4 gush era of magic.

  I do, however, like Franklin's list, as I saw him combo out against TPS on turn 3.
 

This is true, in fact it happened more than once that day that I killed on turn 3.  Once was against U/W fish and the other against tps. 

  Franklin's list is pretty savage, but I can't see it beating Gifts without duress. 

Again, I will not try to justify my list, but I will say that it wasn't designed to beat gifts.  In fact the night before Gencon, I told Demars that my list lost to gifts straight up most of the time.  I did not expect gifts to be a big enough competitor going into that tournament.  My one pre-top 8 loss was to meandeck gifts piloted by the most savagely lucky player I have ever seen.  He won games one and three with extreme luck and not much else to aid him even after I outplayed him and raced to will in game three.

Tog is basically a Gifts deck that requires more colors and more setup 

If you mean that both decks are Yawgwill combo decks than yes, however they both run on almost the same clock with gifts actually requiring more setup.  The colors are the same even if you play red as opposed to green cards.  The only green card tog needs to operate is berserk and 0-1 tropicals to fuel that.

Tog spends a lot of turns and a lot of mana doing nothing.  That's not an efficient way to win games. 

Actually, tog spends very few turns and less mana than you would think winning, and it is actually the most efficient drain deck for one reason: it runs ZERO dead cards.  You can draw and draw into more useful spells every game without fail.  Gifts ungiven is equally as efficient when it has everything it needs, but sometimes you rip burning wish and have nothing to use it on or misdirection that can't necessarily counter the threat your opponent plays.  Again, I am playing gifts right now and I think it is wonderfully broken, but not more or less efficient than tog.  Both decks are actually combo decks and nothing more.  My list exemplifies the combo aspect of tog.

When Tog is casting Duress, Control Slaver is casting Goblin Welder.
When Tog is casting Intuition, Control Slaver is casting Thirst for Knowledge.
When Tog is casting Accumulated Knowledge, Control Slaver already won the game.
 

THE most common misconception about tog is that it loses to control slaver.  This isn't even remotely true.  I wish I had been playing against slaver in the top 8.  I would have crushed, dominated and moved onto a real matchup.  If you look at my maindeck and board I have 2 things on slaver:  a better draw engine, and more powerful answers to my opponents deck.  Again, I won't try to sell you tog or explain why certain cards even made it into my deck, but I will tell you that this isn't togs last top eight.

[keratinx]

@ Draven: Duress is very good against Gifts, however Mind Twist is HORRIBLE. Not only is MT a juicy Drain target, but it is also great MisD target. If Gifts get a 5-6 mana Drain burst out of MT, you lose. If Gifts MisD's the MT you lose. It really is crap-tastic against Gifts

Yes I can agree with what you say. With Fish being another force in my environment, Mind Twist might not seem to be the right choice at the moment. In the small tournaments I play, there are a limited number of Gifts decks running around (SSB, Meandeck Gifts, and so on).

@ onelovemachine : I am another fan of Tog here Recently, with the increasing popularity of Control Slaver, many players who play 'Tog decided not to play it because of CS. Fish is also another contender with its renown mana denial. Playing a lot of BASICS help here. There is a reason why Oath pwns Aggro-Control dekcks like Fish and Bird Sh*t. Regarding Merchant Scroll and Mystical Tutor, I'm currently not sure which to use as my deck list is different from yours. Most of the time I will Scroll for A Call, 4th AK, Intuition or maybe a Mana Drain.

[elias]

I'd like to run Tog in our meta (mostly unpowered) and I see that Tog has the tools needed to take out the artifacts, fish and oath decks. I'm sleeving up a budget build (sans P9). I'd just like some help with the aggro matchup. Green is usually fine since Tog stops their aggro, but I'm having a bit of trouble with red.

I'm ashamed to say it, but I've always had an awful record against red.

My EBA lost to red in the semis... Bad experience...

[keratinx]

I'd like to run Tog in our meta (mostly unpowered) and I see that Tog has the tools needed to take out the artifacts, fish and oath decks. I'm sleeving up a budget build (sans P9). I'd just like some help with the aggro matchup. Green is usually fine since Tog stops their aggro, but I'm having a bit of trouble with red.

I'm ashamed to say it, but I've always had an awful record against red.

My EBA lost to red in the semis... Bad experience...

You can scroll up and see the list that I'm running. It has Tinker/Colossus and EE to deal with the aggro decks. Hence, 'Tog doesn't need to play Green anymore and can take up a more controllish role with red. Like what Steve Menedian said in this Tog 2k5 article, 'Tog can play the control role very well, as well as the aggro role without being Aggro-Control. This is the same with Oath :p

[Disburden]

So many people don't actually understand anything about tog.  All of you bash on my deck and its "random" appearance at Gencon, but few of you know even what the deck does.  I have been doing well with Tog for a VERY long time.  This deck was PERFECTLY metagamed for the day.  I lost to dragon because I mis-sideboarded and forgot to deal with Xantid Swarm  :shock: . 

I would have written a primer for my tog list, but I figured no one would believe me and I wanted to use it at future SCG tournaments.  Until someone wrote something about it I had no reason to even mention it.  I won't try to convince you tog is good.  Right now I am playing a gifts variant.  But I will tell you a few things I have learned to be misconceptions.

merchant scroll is "insane" in tog, but it's even better in gifts 

This, Clown, is a clear misconception.  I don't mean to sound rude, but you didn't playtest this build of tog EVER.  Merchant scroll fulfills the same roll in tog as it does in gifts, only in tog it finds a greater array and more powerful cards.  The most notable of which are in THIS order:
Recall
Gush
Big AK
Echoing Truth
Cunning wish
Fact or fiction
Intuition

Merchant scroll speeds up tog in a way that hasn't been seen since the 4 gush era of magic.

  I do, however, like Franklin's list, as I saw him combo out against TPS on turn 3.
 

This is true, in fact it happened more than once that day that I killed on turn 3.  Once was against U/W fish and the other against tps. 

  Franklin's list is pretty savage, but I can't see it beating Gifts without duress. 

Again, I will not try to justify my list, but I will say that it wasn't designed to beat gifts.  In fact the night before Gencon, I told Demars that my list lost to gifts straight up most of the time.  I did not expect gifts to be a big enough competitor going into that tournament.  My one pre-top 8 loss was to meandeck gifts piloted by the most savagely lucky player I have ever seen.  He won games one and three with extreme luck and not much else to aid him even after I outplayed him and raced to will in game three.

Tog is basically a Gifts deck that requires more colors and more setup 

If you mean that both decks are Yawgwill combo decks than yes, however they both run on almost the same clock with gifts actually requiring more setup.  The colors are the same even if you play red as opposed to green cards.  The only green card tog needs to operate is berserk and 0-1 tropicals to fuel that.

Tog spends a lot of turns and a lot of mana doing nothing.  That's not an efficient way to win games. 

Actually, tog spends very few turns and less mana than you would think winning, and it is actually the most efficient drain deck for one reason: it runs ZERO dead cards.  You can draw and draw into more useful spells every game without fail.  Gifts ungiven is equally as efficient when it has everything it needs, but sometimes you rip burning wish and have nothing to use it on or misdirection that can't necessarily counter the threat your opponent plays.  Again, I am playing gifts right now and I think it is wonderfully broken, but not more or less efficient than tog.  Both decks are actually combo decks and nothing more.  My list exemplifies the combo aspect of tog.

When Tog is casting Duress, Control Slaver is casting Goblin Welder.
When Tog is casting Intuition, Control Slaver is casting Thirst for Knowledge.
When Tog is casting Accumulated Knowledge, Control Slaver already won the game.
 

THE most common misconception about tog is that it loses to control slaver.  This isn't even remotely true.  I wish I had been playing against slaver in the top 8.  I would have crushed, dominated and moved onto a real matchup.  If you look at my maindeck and board I have 2 things on slaver:  a better draw engine, and more powerful answers to my opponents deck.  Again, I won't try to sell you tog or explain why certain cards even made it into my deck, but I will tell you that this isn't togs last top eight.

 I am very happy to hear from you on this topic. It makes starting this thread a lot more rewarding and interesting.
If you were to write a primer on Tog, I would read it in a heart beat, since it is probably one of my favorite decks of all time. I really didn't understand what everyone was saying about Tog not being able to handle new matchups like Gifts and Slaver, your list seemed to wreck those matches when I tested. I at least won a lot of them without that much of a problem.


 Merchant Scroll is probably the BEST thing I have seen in Tog in a long time (four Gush).

 

[Smmenen]

Let me rephrase.  Tog spends a lot of time and mana doing things that don't win the game.  Every time Tog is casting something, your opponent is doing something better.

When Tog is casting Duress, Control Slaver is casting Goblin Welder.
When Tog is casting Intuition, Control Slaver is casting Thirst for Knowledge.
When Tog is casting Accumulated Knowledge, Control Slaver already won the game.

Congratulations, you just spent your first three turns drawing a couple cards instead of winning the game.  Obviously there are additional complications.  It's complications like these that let the better players like Josh Franklin still make an occasional top eight appearance with Tog.  However, a vast majority of Tog's games will look like this, because every other deck in the format makes better investments of time and mana.

Actually, I think that's not what's problematic.  I'm surprised that Kowal left off the most important one of all:

When Tog is casting Tog, every other deck is casting a good card.

Some time ago I wrote an article basically about what I called Vintage at the time: The Five Axis Metagame in which I said Tog was at the center of it:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/6811.html

And the link and discussion about it here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=15584.0

So I used to think that TOG itself was a really really good card. 

USED to think.

I think Tog is now a terrible card.  Tog has gone from being, in my view, the best creature in type one to mediocre. 

In other words, Tog has become Morphling.  Tog was the card which, in my view, displaced Morphling, and now has joined in on the rack of has-beens. 

I am not sure I can explain why.  Perhaps it is related to the notion that new development will always to some extent take Tog into account.  The strategies have evolved around it.  And this is true not just in Vintage but other formats as well where the Tog has been legal for some time now. 

I think Psychatog sucks.  And I used to LOVE him. 

The problem with Tog is NOT the draw engine or the disruption or even the mana base.  All those are fixable.  The problem is that you have a terrible win condition.  Why would you play Tog when you could play Tinker Colossus? 

I wrote a Tog primer at the beginning of the year.... so I've done a total 180 on this matter. 

[Liam-K]

I have productivity issues with the Tog gameplan.  The very real possibility of resolving an ancestral for a land, an intuition and a merchant scroll makes me cringe.  You just gained the ability to do next turn what you should have done this turn by casting ancestral: put good cards in your hand.  And by good cards I mean ones that effect game state.

I also don't like how you win by turning every card in your deck into a fireblast.  A good vintage deck has cards that do broken things.  Tog gives you the option to play them as burn instead, and the only reason it works at all is because you spent all your resources drawing cards.  Instead of gaining advantages, you're just playing burn spells that take effect when you throw your cards away to feed the tog.

That might be a harsh and incomplete synopsis but it's the feel I get.  Instead of drawing cards to play them, I'm drawing cards to either draw more cards or use them as if they were fireblasts when they should be better than fireblast to be in my deck.

[Revvik]

I think a better way to look at it is Psychatog, as a creature, converts used resources into damage points.  That Intuition that served so well at fetching your Accumulated Knowledges serves another purpose now, etc.

[jpmeyer]

For anyone that wasn't in IRC last night:

<jpmeyer> i just figured out a great analogy
<Smmenen> about?
<jpmeyer> tog is to gifts as women are to men in the workplace.  it has to do twice as much work for 70% of the pay
<jpmeyer> ms. tog spends all day going draw, draw, draw and then at the end of the day what does she have to show for it?  a measly freakin' tog
<jpmeyer> meanwhile, mr. gifts just casted his gifts and then walked off with a fat juicy tinker

[absolute]

THE most common misconception about tog is that it loses to control slaver.  This isn't even remotely true.  I wish I had been playing against slaver in the top 8.  I would have crushed, dominated and moved onto a real matchup.  If you look at my maindeck and board I have 2 things on slaver:  a better draw engine, and more powerful answers to my opponents deck.  Again, I won't try to sell you tog or explain why certain cards even made it into my deck, but I will tell you that this isn't togs last top eight.

A real matchup? I have played this version of tog with slaver multiple times, and rarely feared what it could pull off in time for me to resolve welder and push in a mindslaver or duplicant for a win. Both decks actual resources are nearly the same in that they have random maindecked answers to the other, but after boarding it becomes a whole different story (especially if you have neglected to run red). You're draw engine is accumulated knowledge, gush, ancestral, and fact or fiction. This leaves accumulated knowledge as the "better draw engine" against what? Thirst for Knowledge? You're spending more resources doing the same thing if not less here. Saying you would steam roll any competent player is laughable. Be honest, the matchup is far closer than you make it out to be....

[forests failed you]

Darksteel Colossos is a two turn clock that in order to be properly protected from Welders and counterspells comes down on turn three.  Psychatog is a one turn clock that comes down protected on turn four.  It is the same speed only you can't just randomly play Psychatog on turn one and beat down with it the way you can randomly cast Tinker and get lucky on the first turn.  Psychatog is a really good card, in general it is the most powerful creature card ever printed.  If you need more evidence of that just look at its track record in Limited, Standard, and Extended. 

It takes a competent player to make Psychatog win consistently, and I think that Josh Franklin is clear proof of that.  If there were more players out there who knew how to play the deck correctly matchup to matchup we would see more Tog top eights.  The fact that people continue to post that they would play Tog if there wasn't so much Workshop abound is a clear indication that they have no idea how the deck works.  Also, Tog's matchup Vs Gifts is very comperable to Slaver's matchup against the same deck.  If you can stop them from going broken early you win.  I actually watched Josh's match where he lost to Gifts and I have two things to say about it.  First, his opponent was very lucky and drew extremely well.  The Gifts player had Recall in hand which means that he didn't lose tempo having to Scroll for it.  Also, when he Ancestralled on turn one, he hit a second Force of Will, which means that Josh had to try and resolve his three costed instants through two Forces right from the opening  of the game. 

I don't think that it makes Gifts a better deck.  I am well aware that Gifts has everything it needs to just win sometimes.  But, it has to draw a good mix of draw and countermagic.  When Slaver does that it also just wins, and when Tog does it it just wins.