[Report] Team Ogre vs Springfield (ICON) 9-10-05

[virtual]

Does anyone has any testing to prove which is the better variation? That'd rock. I work too much to test the differences

Yes.  Team White Lotus has been tuning a 5c version since after vroman's first appearance with his 2c version. 

The deck plays a LOT differently when you go for the 5c mana base.  Because of consistency issues the # of wastelands probably shouldn't be as high.  Also, the solemns have to go, and you become even more dependant on your artifact mana, so null rod isn't as appealing. 

My current list is as follows:

TWL Scuba Mask (5cUba Mask)
2 wasteland
1 strip mine
3 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
4 workshop
1 tolarian academy

4 bazaar

1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
1 mox ruby
1 mox jet
1 mox sapphire
1 sol ring
1 black lotus
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 lotus petal

1 duplicant
1 karn silver golem
1 triskelion
1 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
4 goblin welder
2 gorilla shaman

1 ancestral recall
1 tinker
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor

1 balance

2 crucible
2 chalice
4 uba mask
4 smokestack
1 memory jar
1 candelabra of tawnos
1 trinisphere

In general, moving to a 5c version just makes the deck different.   The mono-red version has a better game vs other shop decks, and gets to play null rod (which is huge).  The 5c one gets bombs like balance/tinker/sundering titan/etc.  and just is suited for a different environment. 

We can start another thread on this if this derails too much.
-Virtual

[Disburden]

Wouldn't it make more sense to get rid of null rod and just replace it with tangle wire as a 3 of? This seems effective to me in testing and it is a simple swich. Also if Chang's Championship deck proved to us it's that Tangle Wire is too good right now with Stax that uses welders.

I think platz and all the other beats aren't that necessary. You should be relying on the lock pieces first and then karn and sundering titan mixed with a shaman and welders.

The list I ran had this going on:

1 Karn
1 titan
4 welder
2 Shaman

4 wasteland
1 strip
1 tolarian
4 COB
3 Gemstone mine
4 Workshops
4 bazaar
1 Barbarian Ring

5 moxen
1 Black lotus
1 Crypt
1 Vault
1 sol ring

1 balance
1 crop rotation
1 tinker
1 demonic
1 vamp
1 consultation (gets lock pieces)
1 ancestral

and these lock pieces

3 Crucible
3 tangle wire (or null rod)
4 smokestack
3 uba mask
1 trinisphere

I think your list of two chalices and less wastelands along with a lot of men isn't as consistant as running the list I have shown.

[M.Solymossy]

Woudn't it make more sense to play better decks?

Honestly, without flaming here because that's NOT what I am intending... Uba Stax doesn't seem to do good ANYWHERE but
A) the west coast
or
B) when the deck is played by Robert Vroman

the deck is too inconsistant.  There were 3 UbaStax decks in Milwaukee this saturday, and the top 8 was:

Zombies
5C tangleStax
Workshop Slaver
CSlaver
CSlaver
GWS oath
GWS oath NOT played by a GWS player
Traditional oath

I still think that Uba Stax is bad... unless Vroman's playing it... because he's just savage with it.

[warble]

To reply to the above, I would state that UBA stax is more playskill-intensive because unlike other STAX decks, it cannot keep pumping out threats and having them countered.  Take vroman's example of, "I resolved a solemn and rode him to victory" reiterated time and time again in his games.  This is a key example of a threat considered to be weaker, but actually having two goals:
1) 2/2 Beater + weld target + acceleration
2) Ascertain how many counters and threats your opponent has and choose the next threat accordingly
Can UBA stax afford to be played incorrectly and leave something like solemn to be the 3rd theat dropped, simply because it is the weakest?  No, UBA stax allows you to gain information from your opponent simply by choosing threats in the proper order, and this is the method by which you obtain a soft lock --> hard lock.  This is very unlike the trinisphere+workshop lock of old, where the dumbest of dumb can drop turn 1 and 2 trinispheres and ride crucible/smokestack to victory.  However, saying barbarian ring cannot beat CS is ridiculous, and makes me sad.  Just because a lot of workshop players on the east coast are playing CS doesn't mean they would have worse results with UBA stax, it just means they prefer the deck they spent the last year playing and tuning.  CS can out-counter uba stax, but if played correctly the match can usually be brought to a point where one play error will swing the match either way.  Although it may be more difficult to induce this error with workshops than with drains, I doubt the statement that the match is uneven or the deck is inconsistent simply because it walks the same line that mana drain decks do.
I will give you that it's very difficult to sideboard stax decks, and a lot of new players to stax have a tendency to rip the deck to sheds before playing games 2 and 3, or do the opposite and completely ignore their sideboard.  But the same can be done to CS, oath, TPS, and a lot of other decks, so it's not a "true" weakness.

[Disburden]

Woudn't it make more sense to play better decks?

Honestly, without flaming here because that's NOT what I am intending... Uba Stax doesn't seem to do good ANYWHERE but
A) the west coast
or
B) when the deck is played by Robert Vroman

the deck is too inconsistant.  There were 3 UbaStax decks in Milwaukee this saturday, and the top 8 was:

Zombies
5C tangleStax
Workshop Slaver
CSlaver
CSlaver
GWS oath
GWS oath NOT played by a GWS player
Traditional oath

I still think that Uba Stax is bad... unless Vroman's playing it... because he's just savage with it.

We've all seen you post about how Uba Stax is bad before, but I don't think your opinion on if the deck in general or not is bad is on topic. I believe the topic is his decklist right now and if it can be converted to 5c mana base. Not if Nova thinks the deck sucks or not which he has said for months and has be critical ever since Vroman started doing well with the deck.

[M.Solymossy]

For the record... I've thought it was bad BEFORE all the success with it...


And to be on topic:

The monoRed deck sometimes has issues with it's manabase trying to find things... adding 5 colors will just make it weaker, since you lose Solemn Simulacrum, which helps find the basics needed to pump out the biggest threat in the deck, Welder.  You also lose the strength of the deck because Wastelands can totally wreck you.  Also, if you change the deck to 5 colors, I would assume you add cards like Demonic Tutor and Balance.  While Demonic tutor may be good, I see balance being not as good in the deck. 
Another point about adding colors... you have to find things to cut.  The reason Vroman's list is good against decks like control slaver and other decks relying too much on artifacts is because of the absolute strength of nullrod, even more so when an ubamask, a stax, or any other threat is added to that equasion.  By adding 4 other colors, you make the threat density less.   Adding colors makes the Uba mask less of a benifitial part of the deck because you're most likely not adding permanents.  Vroman even said it himself, that the deck is so good because it plays 59 permanents, and the ONE spell he plays, Wheel of fortune, when played under an UbaMask, is both a Mind Twist and pretty much 4+ threats going straight into play fro the Uba player.

adding colors means cutting permanents for spells which is antisynergistic with the Mask.

Hopefully Vroman will comment on this and tell me what he agrees/disagrees with.  Because I'd love to get some more conversation going besides me saying his deck is bad and him totally ignoring me.  I've met him before and he's a stand up fellow (with a savage bandana)

[Hspecter]

Woudn't it make more sense to play better decks?

Maybe everyone should play better decks like this......

There were 3 UbaStax decks in Milwaukee this saturday, and the top 8 was:
Zombies
I still think that Uba Stax is bad... unless Vroman's playing it... because he's just savage with it.

[vroman]

@ nova
clearly I agree that moving to 5c would be a mistake. right now Im running more red sources than red cards [9/7], so its rare that I get colored screwed. the uba synergy debate is also important. I was extremely hesitant to play redblasts side bc its a dead card under uba. it turns out redblasts are very much so worth it. losing one to uba isnt so bad, bc it means I have uba in play against a blue deck, advantage me.
as for how other ppl handle the deck. Ive seen many folks playing my deck and misplaying constantly, even when they win. wasting welder activations, forgeting crucible drops, under/over using smokestack, failing to play around counters, and the most common mistake of all is with bazaars. Knowing when to use bazars and what to discard is probably the hardest part of the deck. then theres the subtle stuff like bluffing and concealment that most ppl have no clue about. I am not trying to be elitist, but I have honestly never watched someone play a game w ubastax that lasted more than a few turns where they didnt make atleast one significant misplay. Im not convinced there are any 'simple' top tier decks in vintage, but ubastax is probably the most complicated deck inthe format, including combo too.
when Im running my shop, most the time Im just sitting behind the counter playing type 1 against regulars for hours every day. we proxy up new decks nightly and play all kinds of combinations and match ups. I didnt design the deck for the masses to enjoy or to try to look clever, I built it bc I play vintage constantly and I win more with this than anything else.
then we take breaks and chase each other around the underground parking garage w airsoft guns.

[M.Solymossy]

I <3 the invention of airsoft.  We had BB gun's when I was younger.  Those hurt something savage.

[vroman]

I think 5c ubastax just top8ed richmond

[Disburden]

I think 5c ubastax just top8ed richmond

I wouldn't be surpised. The list I've been testing trashes people.

[Flux]

I agree with what Vroman said about playing the deck correctly.  I have been playing with him for over a year now and I can say without hesitation; no one will ever be able to play UbaStax like Vroman.  The deck is hard to play, and it seems that innovation has been the key to the deck's winning record.  Vroman is ever changing the deck, and maybe the current metagame suggests a move to 5c.  We just need to keep testing and only break for Applebees and airsoft.  I need to figure out a way for control slaver to beat your deck consistently.

[vroman]

maindeck welder/shaman removal besides trike is probably going to go a long way. jacobs been running pyrite spellbomb main lately. I havnt actually seen it in use yet, but theoreticaly it seems decent: recurable w welder, cycles in dead matchups. but then theres null rod. a heavier black emphasis w mindtwist and darkblast is another direction you could take it.

as for ubastax, goblin lore is broken.

[Polynomial P]

Right now I am running Forcefieldforyou's decklist. The pyrite is side, but Fire/Ice is main. Both have been very good so far in testing and fire/ice is never dead.

[Flux]

Vroman, I have been gold-fishing with darkblast and it is insane!  As for the mindtwist, I love it but it sucks late game, you want it in your opening hand, just like trinisphere.  I think I might run a darkblast main, just because of the synergy with brainstorm, and also in our metagame it seems pretty good with all the welders.  Hopefully I can make it to the shop and play test soon.