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Author Topic: Jungle Lion Stompy {G/W}  (Read 11538 times)
Prometheon
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« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2005, 11:33:22 pm »

Fetches and Root Maze are BAAAAAADDDDDD synergy. Land Grant is a full turn faster at getting your land up and working, and it doesn't cost you life.
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lordmayhem
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« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2005, 12:23:58 am »

I personally don't like Suppression Field since by itself its just a speed bump and decks will recover from it. Its good in multiples, making abilities cost 4, 6 and 8, however if its only good in multiples, is it really worth it? Granted, it has good synergy with Kataki, providing very good tempo disruption, so I think it warrants testing. Let us know how that turns out.

As an aside, have you thought about Troll Ascetic? Making GG shouldn't be a problem for you and an untargettable, regenerating 3/2 would be quite hard to deal with, or is 3 mana too much for a creature? I think it'd be a better choice than Watchwolf, since it isn't just cheap fat.
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Goatman
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« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2005, 12:31:38 am »

I think a 3cc , 3 power creature is a bit more than the deck is willing to commit. Also, if I used suppression field his main benefit would be negated. The creatures are just as you put it, cheap fat. Kataki is the only body with an ability, and is only included because of his bearish nature combined with his ability. The more I look at suppression field the more I like it. Early game it can be crippling against fetches, furthering the mana denial theme. In conjunction with other denial factors I think it can be wicked good.
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lordmayhem
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« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2005, 12:41:28 am »

Suppression Field is crap by itself but combined with your other tempo cards I think it could be bloody good. Let us know how it turns out in your testing.

I understand your point about Ascetic, I was just wondering since its hard to deal with. Since you're going for cheap fat, have you considered Rogue Elephant at all?

Kataki deals with a lot of things, including prison pieces and Chalices. He's very solid.

And congratulations on the deck. I like it.
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TheStu
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« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2005, 12:51:54 am »

Newest List

You should really try and make room for Lotus and Mox Pearl. Artifact mana can lead to some pretty explosive starts, like Kataki+Field, choke+maze or other brokenness.
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Goatman
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« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2005, 12:56:44 am »

With as mana light as the deck already is I'm not sure rogue elephant has a place in it. He needs to come down turn 1 or 2 to be worth it, which screws with the plan of turn 1 maze, turn 2 body, turn 3 rod/kataki, which is th way the deck really likes to play out. Getting someone under the maze/rod/field lock causes the eventuality of even a scryb sprite without rancor going for the throat against tier 1 control or control-combo, but I'm not about to go that extreme.
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Goatman
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« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2005, 12:59:15 am »

I really dont see a need for any additional acceleration. The ability to lead with maze or rod is fine, and ripping a lotus off the top when I want a body or lock piece sucks.
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lordmayhem
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« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2005, 01:37:13 am »

An additional mox / lotus sucks under Kataki / Null Rod. As for acceleration, ESG is fine.
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Zomar
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« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2005, 09:43:50 am »

Quote
You need to win as fast as possible. Protracted games will almost always result in a loss. To that effect a minimum of eight pump spells are required.

@Bebe: Shouldn't at least one of those pump spells be Beserk?

The highest power of any creature in this deck is three, so unless you go all in with mongrel, giant growth provides the same power bonus as beserk without the drawback of killing your guy.
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what is tap?
alban
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« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2005, 02:48:52 pm »

That list plays Root maze, which sucks with your own fetchlands, and suppresion field, which owns fetchlands.
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silvernail
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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2005, 06:59:36 pm »

rule of law can deal with combo decks to some extent, that or orims chant.
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Arvid
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« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2005, 05:09:04 pm »

Actually, I playtested your decklist and I wasn't very impressed. Ofcourse, I only played one matchup, which randomly got to be u/w Landstill, but even when I won I wasn't excited. It felt slow, and I a number of times fell victim to my own hate, like having to tap for Null Rod, having to play lands tapped when I needed my mana, and being land screwed due to mana light deck and Land Grants getting countered when the opposite where supposed to happend. I'm not saying this is a reliable verdict, since it was only one matchup, but I think fish or some tweaked goblin deck might do better.

Anyway I might test Bebe's list to get some more input on this color combination.
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Dipstik
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« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2005, 05:09:17 pm »

Why not try a WWg variant? Something like this maybe?

4x Savannah Lions
4x Jungle Lions
2x Kataki
4x True Believer
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain

4x Suppression Field
3x Null Rod
2x Choke
4x Root Maze
4x Swords
4x Rancor

4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Savannah
2x Forest
5x Plains
1x Mox Pearl
1x Black Lotus

I see some negative synergy between the Samurai and Rancor, but aren't True Believer and Samurai too good to ignore in this metagame? The creatures are a little slower, but I think they'd make up for it by being a must-answer against certain decks instead of just a weenie that can be ignored for a few turns while they focus on setting up their win.
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Prometheon
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« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2005, 08:52:32 pm »

^ That list looks very very solid. MD Choke is a beating right now, though as a 2-of it seems a little random. Also, your permanent mana sources look really low, and I think a good control player would learn tocounter your land grants, and screw you over HARD. Just something to consider...
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Das_Boot
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« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2005, 09:57:03 pm »

IMO vanilla creatures are not what this deck needs.  Mongrel/Rootwalla are good and provide a nice clock, so why Jungle Lion?  Rancor is faster, recurs under Smokestack, and is indestructible.  I would cut the Jungle Lions for a Kataki, who is simply so amazing right now, and 3 utility creatures.  Samurai of the Pale Curtain specifically is a real beating against many decks.  I think a Mox and a Lotus at a minimum should go in, because they speed your deck up so much, and really, any mana is just as shitty a topdeck late game.  I think that the SB should have the last Kataki, the last Choke, and what else?  Chalice for on the play?  Pithing Needle? Jitte?

The other thing I would like to say is, while I don't feel that this is a bad deck, I think that the cards blue give you outweigh the cards green give you, whether UW fish or WW/u.
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Dipstik
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« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2005, 06:36:24 am »

Well at least the 2nd half of this thread has been about how to make the deck take advantage of Suppression Field. That's sort of the central card in my build. Mongrel and rootwalla both suck under a Field. So do most of the cards in Fish. (Meddling Mage is the notable exception)
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twiggy
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« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2005, 12:14:03 pm »

Would tithe be better than land grant?┬  I'm not convinced that it is becuase there is such a low land count but it is a possibility because it can nab two savanahas at once at times.


<edit>
a few other thoughts.

I would swap out a lion to put in Isamaru for slightly more beef for the same cost.

Temple garden might be good here as well.┬  I may be wrong but can't you pay the 2 life to get around your own root maze with it?

« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 12:29:22 pm by twiggy » Logged
Dipstik
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« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2005, 05:03:39 pm »

I had the same thought about temple garden and land grant, twiggy... I doubt it, but maybe someone here can clarify it for us. Tithe is nice... I'll have to consider it. Wish I could playtest. It runs into the same problem as land grant, however, since it can be countered and leave you up a creek sometimes... Here's the version I came up with today after putting a little more thought into it:

4x Savannah Lion
3x Jungle Lion
1x Isamaru
3x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4x True Believer
3x Kataki

4x Rancor
4x Sword to Plowshares

3x Root Maze
3x Choke
2x Null Rod
4x Suppression Field

4x Savannah
9x Plains
3x Forest
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

One problem I see: How to best beat FCG? I ran into that 3 times at the last SCG Chicago (3-0 with ninja mask!) Exalted Angel? Worship? Armadillo Cloak? Smile Seriously... I think it's a weak point for the deck that needs an answer, but I'm drawing a blank.
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Onslaught
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« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2005, 08:55:45 pm »

Quote
The other thing I would like to say is, while I don't feel that this is a bad deck, I think that the cards blue give you outweigh the cards green give you, whether UW fish or WW/u.

Not to derail, but this seems like something to consider since both decks are somewhat revolved around the hate of Kataki and Samurai of the Pale Curtain. If you read Roland Chang's Vintage Championship report (here), you can see how much trouble a Welder based deck has with the built in utility of weenies.

I would be very interested to see a list of his opponent for round one.
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JuJu
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« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2005, 07:40:45 pm »

When comparing this to GPR and Oshawa, is there a reason ESG and Survival was not thought of? As MoxLotus said, I can see this going around Drain(Kind of...) but the speed seems to be lacking, which is what this needs the most of.
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Dipstik
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« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2005, 11:56:06 pm »

Ok I finally got a chance to do some actually playtesting with this deck (a rarity for me), and I noticed a couple things.

First, I forgot that Oath got errata'd a few years ago to not target. Not only that, but the token generating effect on Orchard DOES target, so True Believer is distinctly bad in the one matchup I had in mind for it when making this list. My first thought for replacing it was Whipcorder. Seems good in general, but it's an activated ability that doesn't work so well under a Suppression Field.

I tested against oath and gifts... it worked quite well against gifts thanks to kataki and root maze, but not so well against oath. I still think FCG is gonna be a rough matchup as well. Best sideboard option I can think of is dumping the suppression fields and null rods and running sword of fire and ice.

The deck will probably never be competitive, but it's fun to play.
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Mantis
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« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2005, 10:02:55 am »

Land Grant is bad for the following reason; What are you gonna do if you have 2 wastelands in your hand and a land grant? Wait two full turns before getting your Jungle Lion or Root Maze into play?
And your suprise effect is totally gone with Land Grant, a Gifts deck isn't going to counter your Wild Mongrel if they see you have a Kataki or Null Rod in your hand. You give them such a tactical advantage by showing them your hand. I've read an article about this once, which explained why revealing your hand is so bad even when your opponent isn't playing counters. I don't know if anyone still has the link to that article? I suppose you go read it, and you probably will switch to Fetches since you almost never encounter problems with them, honestly...

Guus
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jro
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« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2005, 02:54:45 pm »

Regarding the Ravnica duals bypassing Root Maze, this is from the Ravnica FAQ:
Quote
* If another effect (such as Loxodon Gatekeeper's ability) tells you to put lands into play tapped, Overgrown Tomb comes into play tapped whether you pay 2 life or not.
So they are definitely not tech.

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twiggy
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« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2005, 08:27:48 am »

@Mantis - the fetches do run into a problem with the four SFields in the deck.  I agree with you about Land Grant though, I never much liked it.

@JRO - Definitely not tech.  Unfortunate that it works that way.  I had anticipated it differently, time stamps and all.
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YakuzaXRock
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« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2005, 05:31:53 am »

Aether Vial + watchwolf and other creatures looks nice. Helps you get around counters, helps vs stax in terms of speed, casting cost and other issues and it also helps your mana base (so you can still run wastelands and keep pumping out guys). Just watch out with null rod + vial, actually I think maybe null rod should go and play chalice or something instead (similar to green worse than fish).
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twiggy
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« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2005, 09:45:54 am »

Watchwolf is some sexy cheapmeat but if you try to add in vial you still run into the same problem with SField.  What would you suggest cutting to make room for the third and fouth COTV ?
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Mantis
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« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2005, 01:29:42 pm »

I've been working on my GW list for quite a while now as well, and would like to share a few things I've discovered.

First of all, Viridian Shaman / Uktabi Orangutangs combined with Fyndhorn Elves / Llanowar Elves is awesome.
I pack Icatian Javenileers as a metagame call and to have a second answer to battle the powerfull Welder. These things combined obviously mean I can't play Suppression Field. The acceleration of the elves and Quirion Ranger allow me to play Crucible of Worlds. Still not sure if Crucible of Worlds + Root Maze is playable or not and if Crucible would make Rogue Elephants better or worse (which inclusion is also yet uncertain).

Also, I just can't seem to agree with Jungle Lions. I think you can compare it to an Enchant Island which reads; Island doesn't untap, pay two life to untap it; which sounds terrible to me, unless combined with a whole lot more mana denial. I would go for the Javineleers or at very least go the white route with a combination of Isamaru and Savannah Lions.

I stand by my point that Land Grant is TERRIBLE and shouldn't be seeing play in this deck, the bad syn between Root Maze and fetch has hardly caused me problems anyway. This very well might also be the cause of my inclusion of elves.

Greetz Guus
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Nastaboi
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« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2005, 01:56:53 am »

Also, I just can't seem to agree with Jungle Lions. I think you can compare it to an Enchant Island which reads; Island doesn't untap, pay two life to untap it; which sounds terrible to me, unless combined with a whole lot more mana denial. I would go for the Javineleers or at very least go the white route with a combination of Isamaru and Savannah Lions.
You are talking here about Mirage's Mtenda Lion. We are talking about Jungle Lion in Portal, which just cannot block, and that hardly matters.
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Mantis
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« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2005, 09:27:48 am »

Ah oke.. that explains : ). Jungle Lion sounds a lot better, still I like a more disruptive approach better.
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