Fake Black Lotus auction? Yay or Nay?

[Eandori]

The picture posted in this auction looks like a fake to me, what do you guys think?  Here's the link...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5243458867&sspagename=ADME%3AL%3ARTQ%3AUS%3A1&rd=1

I have already emailed the owner of the auction, he's busy sending flames at me and telling me to stick it where the sun don't shine.  I have NEVER seen a real black lotus with text that light, and the back of the card looks too orange.  It appears to be a fake card to me.

Opinions?

[NastyNate]

Oddly enough being off center, and clearly having the white spots in corners between the printed picture and the black boarder, makes me think this is perfectly real. the differences in color can easily be explained by the fact that this is a photo, and depending upon the lighting conditions, it could appear either lighter or darker.

When people makes fakes, they make them good fakes (not off centered) so that they can get as much money for them as possible. I just sold an authentic beta timetwister on ebay, and when the buyer received it he emailed me telling me it was fake. I kindly asked him to take it to a dealer, to have it authenticated. It seems like many people think they know how to spot fakes, pretty well, but in actuality, they are being paranoid.

Sellers get accused of both selling and posting fakes on ebay about one to three times for every auction, when it comes to a power card. He is probably flaming you because he knows it's real, and it pisses him off that his integrity is being questioned. Don't take it personally, and if you still think it is fake, just don't bid on it.

[Eandori]

I agree with you about the off centering, but the light color in the text really has got me.  In EVERY unlimited and beta card I own the text is very dark.  It does vary though, for example the Mox Sapphire for some reason is the lightest text of all the moxes.  And I have seen several of the same card from the same set but different print runs vary in color.  I have held the exact same unlimited moxes up to each other and noticed quite a few differences including centering, color depth, etc.

Compare the color of the text to the text box explaining what the card does.  How often have you ever seen the text LIGHTER then that text box background in Alpha/Beta/Unlimited?  I don't think I ever have.

[Revvik]

I have seen variances in print color all the time, almost as if there were multiple printings of Alpha, Beta, or Unlimited.  The thing that gets me about this particular Lotus is the zero casting cost symbol, which looks different.  However, take two things into consideration:
the white dots that Nate brought up
the seller's feedback
This guy has perfect feedback over six years and 350+ people.  That is hard to do if you sell fakes or scam people - I think this guy would bend over backwards to make his customers happy.  If you have the $1200, this is probably a safer investment than you initially think.

[Bram]

Yeah, I doubt this is fake. The scanning process could account for the lightness.

[PacmanXSA]

I think the scanner is the culprit here.  Look at the back scan.  Look at the white background from left to right.  Notice the difference in darkness?

I believe that to be the issue here.

Pac

[Bulls on Parade]

I think the card's real, but I have to bring up the concern that initially made me believe otherwise-

If this were your card, why wouldn't you get it PSA graded and triple (at least) the value?

Because it's fake. That's really the only reason not to have this card PSA graded, and that's all there is to it. Checking out this dude's feedback (paying attention to the items he's sold in the past), I have a hard time believing he doesn't know what PSA grading is.

[Sagath]

The card IS visibly more washed out on both the front and the back. Not just a bit, but Alot. Looking at my own beta lotus, the "sunstreams" comming from the top left to the bottom right are very faded. The auction they are very visible.

I would say its just the scanner washing the card out personally. Besides, its like the other posters say, with his feedback, why would you not trust this seller? Your also insured for 1000 of it via paypal, and if you buy it with CC paypal, your insured regardless of the cost.

If youve got the coin, and want a lotus, I would say this is the guy to get it from. Hell, I'm bidding on his beta Jet right now

[lorenavedon]

I think the card's real, but I have to bring up the concern that initially made me believe otherwise-

If this were your card, why wouldn't you get it PSA graded and triple (at least) the value?

so you could play it? My set of alpha moxes are almost mint. They would grade probably at a PSA 9, but then i wouldnt be able to play them. PSA is great for sports cards which are useless outside of the collectible factor, but i would rather play with magic cards instead of looking at them in a huge plastic case.

PS.. Card looks good to me. Too hard to fake a card offcentre like that front and back. Looks like just a shitty scanner

[Bram]

So you're saying that every goodlooking beta power card should be graded? What about playing with the damned things?

[Sgt. Pepper]

He's not saying that. He's  that if you where going to sell you're Lotus, and it's in good condition, you would be fool to not get it graded since you would make a lot more money of a graded card then otherwise. The fact that the new owner won't be able to play with it won't matter too you.

[Bram]

He's not saying that. He's  that if you where going to sell you're Lotus (...)

Erm...yeah, OK. I didn't see it like that. Owned.

[Firefly]

I think the card's real, but I have to bring up the concern that initially made me believe otherwise-

If this were your card, why wouldn't you get it PSA graded and triple (at least) the value?

True, but have you taken a look at the bottom and right edges of the back of the card? It will probably only get rated 7 by PSA (off center and clearly not NM). A PSA 7 card hardly increases in value, that's not worth the membership

[jcb193]

Anyone who has ever tried to grade a Magic card knows that cards that routinely sell on ebay as NM, often come back as PSA 6, 7.  If i were to put up a beta mox at psa 6, people would actually look away, but if i put up the same card as NM, it would sell well, AND the buyer would be happy too.

JB

[Eandori]

Here's an update on that card/seller.

Turns out he did not complete the auction because he lives in Houston Texas and there were shipping problems around the time of the Hurricane.  He said he never put it back up for auction, because now he's not sure whether or not the card is real.  Again, I offered to help him verify if the card is real or not if he sent me a high resolution scan of it.

I have never received the scan.  I have been keeping my eye on him as a seller, and I have never seen the card go back up for sale.

[Royal Ass.]

It looks to me like the casting cost has been photoshopped on close inspection.  Plus the edge of the card where the brown meets the black border looks a little different. 

Several years ago i almost got scammed for an alpha lotus.  I was very close to sending the money, when someone anonomously sent me a message with some backround on the seller.  I looked into it and found a whole web of deception from this person, who i believe was actually some woman... anyway as a battle scar I still have the negative feedback she left for me.  I filed a fraud claim on her and eventually she was removed from ebay, but not before she scammed some guy for 700 dollars on the same fack lotus she tried to sell me. 

[Eandori]

Yeah, I  know what you mean.

I have actually spent large amounts of time picking out fake MTG auctions on Ebay and alerting buyers of potential fraud.  I got ripped off once.  I bought a Mox Sapphire for $270 using Paypal and the guy sent me some crap $0.50 card instead of my Sapphire.  He proceeded to ignore all his sellers and I never got my card, Paypal only refunded $175 of my money, so I lost about $95 to that theif. 

BTW, I learned that's what Paypals "coverage" really was...  If you lose 100 to 199, they replay you $75.  If you lose 200 to 499, they repay you $175.  Pretty horrible if you ask me, not nearly as safe as they lead you to believe.

Anyways, since then I put extra time into catching theifs on Ebay.  I have had a lot of "busts" too.  It makes me so mad every time I see that junk, theifs on Ebay scamming Magic players and ruining the Vintage community.  One of the guys that I didn't quite catch stole over $10,000 and got away with it!  I figured him out before his auctions ended, but didn't trust my instinct enough and he was being very attacking and rude in emails.  Well my hunch ended up being right and he sold 3 sets of fake beta power 9 along with tons of other fake beta cards.  I helped his buyers get organized and contact the Washington State police to file charges.  The police even showed up AT HIS HOUSE but did nothing...  Cops are worthless these days, unless it's giving you a traffic ticket.  That sellers name was Bill Myers (WildWilliam56 on Ebay).

I see that some people talk about buying stuff up to $1000 on Ebay using Paypal and they claim it's "Safe".  How can that be?  Only with a Paypal credit card?  What?  Because the "coverage" I found with Paypal from my losses were far from %100 recovered.  Anybody know?

Best of luck all.