Kjeldoran Outpost in Landstill

[dskippy0]

I know that Landstill is not a powerful deck these days but some people have played it on recent occasions making top 20. My question is why did they never run Kjeldoran Outpost in the UW version. Seems like a better play than mana lands in lot of cases. Mostly because you can sit back and react with untapped mana and then put out a token if the opponent doesn't play anything you need to counter.

-mike

[Luiggi]

I think one of the main reasons is that you need to sacrifice a Plains when it comes into play, and is very vulnerable to Wasteland. Yes, you have Crucible to replay it, but you're sacrificing another Plains to put it back into play. This'll make you lose a lot of tempo...

Luiggi

[dskippy0]

I guess that is a big problem. Late game not so much but you're likely loosing a Tundra (or a Plains that you fetched instead of fetching Tundra) for a land that only produces white mana.

-mike

[warble]

*grumble* something something Eternal Dragon.

Just kidding, I'll elaborate.

With Eternal Dragon, you have a 5/5 flying beater in your deck that you can recur to provide more mana.  Since the outpost wasn't getting you any extra land, you can plainscycle the dragon to provide an extra mana that turn which makes dragon have +1 mana immediately and with recursion it's more like +infinity mana (as we know landstill takes approximately forever to kill).  Also, the dragon's land won't be succeptable to waste so +1 wastelandproof.  The 5/5 flyer is a lot different than a 1/1 soldier token, so 4 turn clock versus 20 turn clock...  Let's summarize:

+1 mana
+1 wastelandproof
+16 turns on the clock (if the soldiers even do anything at all)
+card quality advantage

The only downside I see here is that you can't actually cast the dragon through landstill, but if you've fetched all your plains/tundras from your deck the card quality advantage should allow you to control your deck to such an extent that your opponent will not be able to win.  Landstill is all about the opponent not winning, it really doesn't care when or how or even if it kills it's opponent.  That, of course, is what makes landstill such an unpopular type 1 deck.  Most vintage players want to win the game with broken draws at least occasionally . . . and Outpost has nothing to do with that.

[dskippy0]

Now that you bring up Dragon, are players really paying the 2+3WW to recur a Dragon and get more cards. Seems like it will take a long time to get up to 7 mana and once you have, isn't that mana better spent countering, activating man lands, or playing the Dragon itself?

-mike

[silvernail]

well landstill is designed to work even if you are tapped out because it packs many free counters. Also outposts and dragons are both mostly slow, with man lands being better usually speaking.

[dksxmks]

@Luiggi: KJ Outpost is a lategame card. Back in the days of CounterPost decks you would run about 2. And even though it's a waste target, a Crucible will back it up nicely. Even if you have to sac a plains.. which also gets backed up by Crucible, as you mentioned. Tempo is less of an issue late game and it packs many free counters, as silvernail said.

@warble: KJ Outposts are usable each turn so you wont have a 20 turn clock. Also tapping down to cast/recur a dragon isnt always a good idea. With the Outpost you're freely able to generate a token at EOT, it's more resiliant to creaturekill, (or StP specifically) and it's uncounterable!!

[warble]

@warble: KJ Outposts are usable each turn so you wont have a 20 turn clock. Also tapping down to cast/recur a dragon isnt always a good idea. With the Outpost you're freely able to generate a token at EOT, it's more resiliant to creaturekill, (or StP specifically) and it's uncounterable!!

You're missing the point completely.  If Landstill can SURVIVE the first 3 turns in Vintage on a consistent basis, it might be popular.  It can't, it consistently gets things shoved up it's you-know-where so far that...well okay I don't want to rip on it too hard.  We try, with landstill, to make a deck that doesn't have a decent clock and still survives in an environment where the deck with the fastest clock always wins.  What are we doing with eternal dragon early?  We're fetching an extra plains as an instant, so that we can ramp up mana consistently, so that we can survive those first few turns against wasteland+strip and early beaters that are sometimes as large as 12/12, or even worse flying 6/5 hasted oath fools.  We want to defend ourselves with plowshares, and I can't honestly find ONE early-game use for outpost aside from weakening your board position, making you more succeptable to land-control, and wasting a land drop.  If your opponent is playing stuff that can hurt your man-lands the outpost will be either too slow or in the graveyard.  When there isn't a single benefit to a card, it doesn't make it into a deck.  I don't think any more justication is necessary.

[Luiggi]

I couldn't have put it better myself. Kjeldoran Outpost is just too slow and tempo-reducing to be good in LandStill. Decree of Justice is way superior in terms of making tokens, and I think I'd even run Mobilization before Outpost. Wasteland is too good and too common in decks like Fish and Stax to be running a land that sets you back a turn, Crucible or no...

Luiggi

[dksxmks]

Well put warble, I was actually just reminescing the good ol' days of counterpost.  I totally agree though about having a much faster clock late game and early plain/tundra fetching.