Evidence!

[Komatteru]

I love Mike Flores and all the stuff he writes, but we now have resounding evidence that he has never played Vintage.  From his latest article,

Birds of Paradise
This is quite simply one of the five or so best creatures of all time, still probably the best one-mana creature in Magic. Birds of Paradise has been a constant in tournament winning Green decks since Alpha, and will be all the more valuable in the Ravnica-enabled multicolored metagame we will see in the coming months.

Maybe we're missing the boat?

[The Atog Lord]

With a Lotus in the yard, Welder is like three birds.

[BigMac]

When was the last recorded time a deck with birds of paradise actually won a game? I think it was 2002 or early 2003, the last time 5-colour green won or something. So it is not that bad, he is only a couple of years behind.

[jpmeyer]

I was gonna say Goblin Lackey

[Eddie]

Hell, even Xantid Swarm or Gorilla Shaman are far better one-mana creatures.

[forests failed you]

Well, clearly Birds are worse than Shaman, Lackey, or Welder in Vintage.  But part of the reason that those cards are so good in Vintage is due to the large card pool, and in particular Welder and Shaman are so good because of their interaction with Moxes.  Welder and Shaman never had the kind of impact in their own Standard formats that Birds have had, because they are not necessarily as good in a vacuum.  Welder is busted because it has a fantastic interaction with the best cards in the game, the Moxes and Lotus.  However, the fact that Welder makes your Moxes busted is of little consequence when you are playing type 2.  But, when you are comparing how good cards are within the context of every single card ever printer, and their ideal interactions within the entire cardpool; clearly, Welder, Shaman, and Lackey can do some pretty fantastic things that are better than tap for one Mana of any color and fly.

[Jacob Orlove]

Welder was absolutely ridiculous in T2 for the week or so until Memory Jar was banned.

[Komatteru]

Hell, even Xantid Swarm or Gorilla Shaman are far better one-mana creatures.

Xantid Swarm shows us just how good a 0/1 Flyer for G can be.  Who cares about producing a mana when you can just win the game?

[forests failed you]

Yes, I understand that Welder was good in type two for the week before Memory Jar was banned.  My point is that the power level of Goblin Welder and Goblin Lackey is directly related to other cards in the format.  Welder would have been insane during Mirrodin, but not so much during Invasion/Onslaught. 

Birds on the other hand is always good because any Standard green deck is happy about casting three drops on turn two.  However, Birds are bad in Vintage because there are just clearly better ways to accelerate Mana other than playing a creature that will tap for one next turn.

The arguement I'm making is that I can see how somebody could say Birds is the best one drop ever; merely because of the impact the card has had in standard for the past decade.  If we were to look at Standard and Extended Pro Tour and GP top eights all the way to the beginning, I would probably bet Birds would be the most played one drop creature of all time.

[cssamerican]

When was the last recorded time a deck with birds of paradise actually won a game? I think it was 2002 or early 2003, the last time 5-colour green won or something. So it is not that bad, he is only a couple of years behind.

Probably whenever the last variant of Vengeur Masqué won a tournament, so that would be around the time Control Slaver started getting popular. But I got a feelling that it has won tournaments more recently in Europe just becasue their metagame is a little bit more unpredictable and the deck is still good enough to win if piloted by a good player.

[ELD]

I didn't see much welder in type 2 due to Masticore.  That guy was everywhere.  Birds have won games recently in Tooth and Nail.  Turn 1 bird, turn 2 SoFI is fairly savage vs decks that have boarded to stop tooth from resolving. 

[t3h_fury]

In Vintage- Welder

In Legacy- Goblin Lackey

In Extended I'd have to go with Grim Lavamancer.

In T2 its BOP.

So if he's talking about Standard then he's right, but if he's talking about any other format then the man is off his rocker (although BOP is pretty good in EXT).

[Magi]

If one were to take a look at the game as a whole, take into account all formats, and include things such as the history of the development of decktypes etc. then I'm sure a strong argument could be put forth for Birds being one of the best creatures period.

In short, forcefieldyou wins.

[Vegeta2711]

Birds and Goblin Lackey are ultimately the short list of best ever 1 mana creatures.

Xantid Swarm and Shaman aren't even in the ballpark, even if you were counting Vintage only, let alone overall.

[Bram]

Birds and Goblin Lackey are ultimately the short list of best ever 1 mana creatures.

Xantid Swarm and Shaman aren't even in the ballpark, even if you were counting Vintage only, let alone overall.

For one thing, you conveniently forgot to mention Goblin Welder on your little 'short list'. For another, your last statement is nonsense. 'Even if you were counting Vintage only'? Then how come Birds virtually never see play in Vintage, whereas Shamans are everywhere? How can you seriously think that a card that basically sees play in one easy-to-hate, hard-to-play combo deck is some how better than a card that sees play in a multitude of actual tournament winning decks?

[Joblin Velder]

Bram, Veggies was refering the Xantid Swarm and Shaman only in that last line, not Birds.

[Bram]

Huh? I don't get that. What I read into it was:

1. Birds and Lackey are the best 1cc men ever.

2. Swarm and Shaman aren't even close (to Birds and Lackey) even if you only look at T1.

Am I wrong?

[Joblin Velder]

Eh, maybe I am. I thought he was replying to those who brought those specific two cards up, rather than just commenting on vintage 1 drops in general.

[forests failed you]

No way!  Clearly Birds are the most broken one drop creature in Vintage.  I'm going to wreck all of you guys in Chicago with my Eureka deck!

[smeagol]

""Yes, I  My point is that the power level of Goblin Welder and Goblin Lackey is directly related to other cards in the format...
""Birds on the other hand is always good because any Standard green deck is happy about casting three drops on turn two. ""

So, Goblin Welder and Goblin Lackey are only good related to other cards, which makes them not the best 1-drop creatures in the game. Fine, that is understandable. However, Birds are one of the best 1-drop creatures in the game due to their interactions with other cards?   That seems kind of counter-intuitive.

[SpencerForHire]

""Yes, I My point is that the power level of Goblin Welder and Goblin Lackey is directly related to other cards in the format...
""Birds on the other hand is always good because any Standard green deck is happy about casting three drops on turn two. ""

So, Goblin Welder and Goblin Lackey are only good related to other cards, which makes them not the best 1-drop creatures in the game. Fine, that is understandable. However, Birds are one of the best 1-drop creatures in the game due to their interactions with other cards? That seems kind of counter-intuitive.

If we are going by the logic that Lackey and Welder are only as good as the cards you play with them then..

Explain how birds is different.  If we are talking about cards themselves than Birds is an 0/1 Flyer that Taps to do one damage to you at the end of the phase.

[Komatteru]

I'll guess the logic is that Birds is good because it has synergy with cards that cost mana.  Since every deck ever has played with cards that cost mana, and not every deck plays with lots of Joblins, or is in a field full of 0-cost artifacts, Birds are the best.  I don't necessarily agree, but this is the argument, I believe.

[Vegeta2711]

Huh? I don't get that. What I read into it was:

1. Birds and Lackey are the best 1cc men ever.

2. Swarm and Shaman aren't even close (to Birds and Lackey) even if you only look at T1.

Am I wrong?

You are.

What I was saying was, if you narrow the scope to Vintage then they still aren't in the ballpark. Why? Because Goblin Welder clearly becomes the best 1 drop without debate.

And I left Goblin Welder off the 'every format'  list, because the card is hardly broken outside of Vintage and that brief time JOr<3 mentioned. Goblin Lackey was one of the few creatures ever banned (And for good reason, since Goblins is straight up busted with it) and BoP has been played in more competitve formats than I can remember.

[Komatteru]

I think that Welder wasn't given a chance to shine.  I agree with Brian that it would have been utterly, utterly stupid with Mirrodin block.  Essentially, take Control Slaver, replace it with other countermagic, and put it in a format that can't stop anything it does, and see what happens.  If that's not enough, Titan.dec would have completely ruined the format.

[Jacob Orlove]

Welder was pretty hot in Teen Titans.

[Sgt. Pepper]

What about Disciple of the Vault? that little guy was one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, reasons people complained about Affinity. Disciple let you win games you shouldn't have and made for a lot of lucky/random wins. The little 1/1 common was involved in most of the t4/5 kills and had to be one of the most feared topdecks in the deck.

Also, Disciple wasn't just good on Turn 1 (as a matter of fact, you'd rather not have it on Turn 1), but it was good the whole game long, alone and especially in multiples. Like Lackey, Disciple got itself banned in extended, but it also got the axe in Standard. whether it beats BoP I don't know. Disciple if clearly the more broken card in the right deck, but BoP is way more versatile. Still though, strange that on-one mentioned him.

[smeagol]

"""If we are going by the logic that Lackey and Welder are only as good as the cards you play with them then..

Explain how birds is different.  If we are talking about cards themselves than Birds is an 0/1 Flyer that Taps to do one damage to you at the end of the phase."""  -Gimbles


That is the point I was trying to make- I didn't understand how Birds were different. Sorry if my post was unclear.

The three of those one drops (and shaman and disciple) are only good due to their interactions with other cards, and in my opinion the interaction that Welder and Lackey have with other cards is much greater than the interaction birds has with other cards.

[Joblin Velder]

What about Disciple of the Vault? that little guy was one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, reasons people complained about Affinity. Disciple let you win games you shouldn't have and made for a lot of lucky/random wins. The little 1/1 common was involved in most of the t4/5 kills and had to be one of the most feared topdecks in the deck.

Also, Disciple wasn't just good on Turn 1 (as a matter of fact, you'd rather not have it on Turn 1), but it was good the whole game long, alone and especially in multiples. Like Lackey, Disciple got itself banned in extended, but it also got the axe in Standard. whether it beats BoP I don't know. Disciple if clearly the more broken card in the right deck, but BoP is way more versatile. Still though, strange that on-one mentioned him.

Disciple isn't one of the best one drops of all time because he doesn't fit into a lot of archetypes. He was a house in affinity, but it's not like you'll put him in any deck that uses black.

[Methuselahn]

Mike Flores doesn't write about Vintage.  He's smarter than that.

[BigMac]

I cannot understand you are all forgetting da bomb in vintage vreatures that cost 1 mana.

Take Benalish hero, definately the best 1 mana critter evar.

Where did the times go when banding was played to win...