Comp. Rules update

[Matt]

Apparantly Wizards wasn't satisfied with overloading the new expansions with keywords, so they snuck a new one in some old sets: "Substance." It does absolutely nothing on its own.

Gatherer

Necromancy now has the absolute worst wording I have ever seen on a card.

On a lighter note, Humility's wording has changed AGAIN, back to the actual cards' wording.

[Jacob Orlove]

You may play Necromancy any time you could play an instant. If it was played any time a sorcery couldn’t have been played, it gains substance until end of turn and gains “When Necromancy doesn’t have substance, sacrifice it.�
When Necromancy comes into play, if it’s in play, it becomes an Aura with enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control and attach Necromancy to it.
When Necromancy leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can’t be regenerated.

Yeah, that's random. Oh wait, actually, it's probably honestly just to make it easier for MODO to handle them, since they're going to add Mirage there soon.

[epeeguy]

I won't tell you what we've taken to calling "substence".  Suffice it to say, it's not very polite.

On a lighter note, Humility's wording has changed AGAIN, back to the actual cards' wording.

And you don't want to see the change that they made to that section of the CompRules that made this possible.

[Jacob Orlove]

And you don't want to see the change that they made to that section of the CompRules that made this possible.

But just in case he does:

418.5. Interaction of Continuous Effects

418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, “Copying Objects�); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects; (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.
          Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then all other effects. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (6a) effects from characteristic-setting abilities; (6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e; (6c) changes from counters; (6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and (6e) effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b–418.5g).
Example: Crusade is an enchantment that reads “White creatures get +1/+1.� Crusade and a 2/2 black creature are in play. If an effect then turns the creature white, it gets +1/+1 from Crusade, becoming 3/3. If the creature’s color is later changed to red, Crusade’s effect stops applying to it, and it will return to being a 2/2.
Example: Gray Ogre, a 2/2 creature, is in play. An effect puts a +1/+1 counter on it, making it 3/3. An effect that says “Target creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn� is applied to it, making it 7/7. An enchantment that says “Creatures you control get +0/+2� enters play, making it a 7/9. An effect that says “Target creature becomes 0/1 until end of turn� is applied to it, making it a 1/4 (0/1, plus +1/+1 from the counter, plus +0/+2 from the enchantment).
Example: Svogthos, the Restless Tomb, is in play. An effect that says “Until end of turn, target land becomes a 3/3 creature that’s still a land� is applied to it. An effect that says “Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn� is applied to it, making it a 4/4 land creature. Then you activate Svogthos’s ability (“Until end of turn, Svogthos, the Restless Tomb becomes a black and green Plant Zombie creature with ‘This creature’s power and toughness are each equal to the number of creature cards in your graveyard.’ It’s still a land.�) while you have ten creature cards in your graveyard. It becomes a 10/10 land creature. If a creature card enters or leaves your graveyard, Svogthos’s power and toughness will be modified accordingly. If the first effect is applied to it again, it will become a 3/3 land creature again.

418.5b If an effect should be applied in different layers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate layers. If an effect starts to apply in one layer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.
Example: An effect that reads “Wild Mongrel gets +1/+1 and becomes the color of your choice until end of turn� is both a power- and toughness-changing effect and an “other� kind of effect. The “becomes the color of your choice� part is applied in layer 5, and then the “gets +1/+1� part is applied in layer 6.
Example: Grab the Reins has an effect that reads “Until end of turn, you gain control of target creature and it gains haste.� This is both a control-changing effect and an “other� effect. The “you gain control� part is applied in layer 2, and then the “it gains haste� part is applied in layer 5.
Example: An effect that reads “All noncreature artifacts become 2/2 artifact creatures until end of turn� is both a type-changing effect and a power- and toughness-setting effect. The type-changing effect is applied to all noncreature artifacts in layer 4 and the power- and toughness-setting effect is applied to those same permanents in layer 6, even though those permanents aren’t noncreature artifacts by then.

Wow, that is worse.

[Necrologia]

On the substance thing:

While it's certainly easier to code, the change does functionally improve at least one card in that cycle: Armor of Thorns.

Going by the old wording, if you were to use it to pump a 1/1 blocking a 2/2 during combat, the creature would die during end of turn triggers, as the enchantment would fall off before damage was removed. Now that the bonus lasts until end of turn, rather than checking at end of turn the creature survives.

As trivial as it may seem, it was most likely the main reason for the change. Having a nifty combat trick not function the way 99.9% of people would assume it works is quite bad for drafting/limited in general.

[Moxlotus]

I suck ass at reading comprehension.

If Humility is in play, and I Giant Growth a guy-how big is he?

If a creature has a +1/+1 counter, then Humility comes into play-how big is he?

If a creature has a +1/+1 counter and Rancor on him, then Humility is played-how big is he?

If I play Hermetic Study (the ping aura), then Humility is played-can he ping?

If humility is in play, then I cast Hermetic Study-can he ping?

Thanks.

[vartemis]

I posted 418.5a and b already. There's no need to repost it. Fixed.
-Jacob

edit: i know, i quoted, unless i accidentally deleted the quotes.

and this is why i am glad no one in my group plays with humility, outside of our stack for chaos.

j

[Gabethebabe]

I´ll give it a shot.

If Humility is in play, and I Giant Growth a guy-how big is he?

Humility = 6a, Giant Growth =6d ==> 4/4

If a creature has a +1/+1 counter, then Humility comes into play-how big is he?

Humility = 6a, counter =6c ==> 2/2

If a creature has a +1/+1 counter and Rancor on him, then Humility is played-how big is he?

Humility=6a, counter = 6c, Rancor = 6d ==> 4/2

If I play Hermetic Study (the ping aura), then Humility is played-can he ping?

No. Time stamp thing.

If humility is in play, then I cast Hermetic Study-can he ping?

Yes. Time stamp thing.

I find my own answers kinda counterintuitive. If Spike Weaver is in play and someone casts Humility, it actually gets BIGGER.
I must be missing something.

[epeeguy]

Humility = 6a, Giant Growth =6d ==> 4/4

Actually, Humility qualifies as 6b.  Characteristic-setting abilities are limited to abilities that affect the permanent itself and no other.  For example, Nightmare's ability that sets its power and toughness is a characteristic-setting ability (and the Kobolds "~this is red." ability is another such thing).  So, Humility sets power and toughness to a specific value (so it can't be 6d), but isn't a characteristic-setting ability (so it can't be 6a).  Nor is it a counter (so it's not 6c) or switches power and toughness (6e).  So, it must be 6b. 

This is the correct result, just for a different reason.

I find my own answers kinda counterintuitive. If Spike Weaver is in play and someone casts Humility, it actually gets BIGGER.
I must be missing something.

Actually, it used to be that Spike Weaver 1/1 with Humility in play (Humility used to be applied after +1/+1 counters).  However, as a result of the creation of these sublayers within 418.5a, it now becomes a 1/1 in 6b and then the counters are added to it in 6c, making it a 4/4.  Go figure.

[dandan]

Just when I thought I understood Humility, I don't. Maybe I never did.

Substance makes me want to vomit. They made up a new keyword Substance for things that go away?

[Gabethebabe]

It is quite clear why they invented "substance"

Until now we have had effects that last "until end of turn", which end when you enter a cleanup step.

However, there were no triggered abilities that had their effect in the cleanup step.

And things like Necromancy were designed to last until end of turn, so no more abusing of casting it at the end of turn.
Substance assures that Necromancy will fall off in the turn that it is cast (well, infinite Stifles would prevent it).

They could have given substance to Thawing Glaciers as well

EDIT: Where dit Matt get this info from, BTW??
I expected it HERE

EDIT2: Suppose I have in play: March of the Machines, Living Plane, Isochron imprinted with Stifle, Intruder Alarm, a couple of lands and an untapped Orchard and I have just cast Necromany "when I couldnt´play a sorcery" on a Phyrexian War Beast and I´m at 1 life

Will I lose the game or is it a draw?

[epeeguy]

EDIT: Where dit Matt get this info from, BTW??

He got it out of the Gatherer search engine that WotC has set up to link to the Oracle text of all the cards printed for Magic.

[Gabethebabe]

EDIT: Where dit Matt get this info from, BTW??

He got it out of the Gatherer search engine that WotC has set up to link to the Oracle text of all the cards printed for Magic.

He just randomly logged into gatherer and searched for "substance"??

[epeeguy]

He just randomly logged into gatherer and searched for "substance"??

Well, either that or he saw the comment about the CompRules being updated from the Judge listserv.  Because those are the only two ways I can think of how anyone would even think to look for something like that.

[Matt]

Hah, I'll never tell!

[Anusien]

Gabethebabe, we don't answer questions about substance abuse.

[Philatio]

Wait, so the whole counters thing gets added AFTER the P/T is set to 1/1?

So someone has Ravager in play, and they sac all of their artifact creatures to it in response to Humility, and it can still be 5/5 or 10/10 or something absurd?

Then if it goes to the graveyard, does modular trigger?  What about when Academy Rector goes to the grave?

And I don't understand how the change affects the age-old "Humilty and Opalescence in play" question.  Is it safe to assume every global enchantment (including humility, not including opalescence) are 1/1s without abilities?

[Gabethebabe]

Wait, so the whole counters thing gets added AFTER the P/T is set to 1/1?

Yes

So someone has Ravager in play, and they sac all of their artifact creatures to it in response to Humility, and it can still be 5/5 or 10/10 or something absurd?

Yes, but it doesn´t trample

Then if it goes to the graveyard, does modular trigger?  What about when Academy Rector goes to the grave?

No triggers here. They have no abilities remember.

And I don't understand how the change affects the age-old "Humilty and Opalescence in play" question.  Is it safe to assume every global enchantment (including humility, not including opalescence) are 1/1s without abilities?

Don´t EVER ask again about Humility and Opalescense again. You will be shot.

[epeeguy]

Wait, so the whole counters thing gets added AFTER the P/T is set to 1/1?

The answer, as of October 1, 2005, is "Yes".  Had you asked the day before, the answer would have been "No".

So someone has Ravager in play, and they sac all of their artifact creatures to it in response to Humility, and it can still be 5/5 or 10/10 or something absurd?

It will start as a 1/1 (as opposed to a 0/0) and then get the bonuses from the counters added to it.

Then if it goes to the graveyard, does modular trigger?  What about when Academy Rector goes to the grave?

No.  Humility makes it so that neither the Ravager or Rector has an ability when it leaves play.  So, neither Modular nor the search would trigger.

And I don't understand how the change affects the age-old "Humilty and Opalescence in play" question.  Is it safe to assume every global enchantment (including humility, not including opalescence) are 1/1s without abilities?

Correct.  The reason is much technically different now, but it still works the same way it used to.

[Das_Boot]

What is the end result of Humility and 2 Opalescences in play?

[Godder]

From Saturday School with John Carter:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jc61

Q: What is "substance"?

A: “Substance� is a new keyword added when the Comp Rules were updated for Ravnica. [CR 502.49] Substance isn't much—it's basically a placeholder. In order to figure out why substance exists, you have to look at the Oracle's most recent revisions. There you'll see Mirage block enchantments that you could play at any time that would blow up if you played them at odd times. These instant-ments give themselves substance until end of turn and then are sacrificed when the substance wears off.

*Extra*: Why bother with tweaking cards from nine years ago that haven't been reprinted since? Because Mirage is scheduled for release on Magic Online later this year, and now is the perfect time to brush off some of the dust and debris while the set gets prepared for it's cyber debut.

Q: How did the layering system change when Ravnica was released?

A: Let's start with what the layering system is.

Q: Ok, what's the layering system, and how did it change when Ravnica was released?

A: The layering system is how the game figures out the end product of continuous effects (like Crusade or Overrun). First, you start with the printed characteristics. Then the system puts different kinds of effects into a particular order so that the results are consistent.
The layers handle different effects in this order:
(1) Copy effects—Dimir Doppelganger, Clone
(2) Control-changing effects—Control Magic, Threaten
(3) Text-changing effects—Shifting Sky, Darkest Hour
(4) Type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects—Dream Thrush, Neurok Transmuter
(5) All other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness—Mother of Runes, Whip Sergeant
(6) Power- and/or toughness-changing effects—Sorceress Queen, Giant Growth
With each layer, you handle characteristic-setting abilities (Crimson Kobolds) first. [CR 418.5a] Then you handle things in timestamp order (generally the order things entered play) unless a dependency (which we'll cover another time) forces an adjustment. [CR 418.5b-g]

There are several minor tweaks in how the layering system works. One simple one is that if something applies in multiple layers, you apply each part in the respective layer (such as Wild Mongrel's color change in #5 and +1/+1 in #6). Effects for layer #4 used to have a special exemption that no longer applies.

The big change is that layer #6 has been remodeled. We now have sublayers in layer #6…
(6a) Effects from characteristic-setting abilities—just like other layers
(6b) All other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e—your generic “other� P/T effects
(6c) Changes from counters—Dragon Blood, modular creatures
(6d) Effects from static abilities that modify P/T but don't set P/T to a specific amount—Giant Growth, Howl From Beyond
(6e) Effects that switch a creature's power and toughness—Aquamoeba, Dwarven Thaumaturgist

Compared to before, only #6a remains unmoved. Counters used to be processed before normal continuous effects, so they'd disappear under a Sorceress Queen's stare. Now, a Sorceress Queen would turn your 1/1 Arcbound Worker into a (0/0 base > 0/2 other > +1/+1 counter) 1/3 Arcbound Worker. Once you get through the first four sublayers, then you switch the P/T is applicable rather than switching somewhere in the middle.

Let's mix Maro (three cards in hand), Sorceress Queen, Dragon Blood, Might of Oaks, and Mannichi, the Fevered Dream all together.
Base = */*. Then caracteristic-setting ability = 3/3. Then Sorceress Queen's “other� P/T = 0/2. Then Dragon Blood counter = 1/3. Then Might of Oaks modification = 8/10. Then Mannichi switch = 10/8.
If we take out the Queen's effect, Maro's sublayering would look like this: */*, 3/3, 4/4, 11/11, and finally 11/11.

What is the end result of Humility and 2 Opalescences in play?

You getting shot .

[epeeguy]

What is the end result of Humility and 2 Opalescences in play?

All three enchantments are 1/1 creatures with no abilities.

[TracerBullet]

Zee Oh Em Gee, I miss enjoying Magic.