Dark Confidant: The key to aggro-control? UB Fish Tempo

[Onslaught]

Fish has been paired with Red and White to varying levels of success, so why not Black?

Pushing small creatures through no longer poses a threat to most of the good decks in the format, so they need to have an ability built in that effects the game in another way. If you drop 1/1s and 2/2s just for the sake of their cheap cost, they will be ignored until it is time for the opponent to win. Playing creatures that effect the board while pecking away at life is the only way to go. The best example of this is the moderate success found by creatures like Kataki and Samurai of the Pale Curtain. Not only do they apply constant pressure from weenie beats, but they have built in Energy Flux, built in Planar Void, and so on. In fact, WW with blue backup is probably the best current form of "Fish." You have access to:

Kataki
Pale Curtain
True Believer
Kami of White Law
Meddling Mage

Black doesn't have the walking Flux in Kataki, but it has an acceptable replacement for Pale Curtain in the form of Withered Wretch. Black also allows you to play Aether Vial without the Kataki drawback. The newest toy for Black that makes this deck worth consideration is yet another creature with a built in effect, Dark Confidant. The question boils down to whether or not his raw card advantage is more overpowering than resolving one of the aforementioned White guys. The life loss should be irrelevant since you will be the beatdown deck in almost every matchup.

4 Mesmeric Fiend*
4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
4 Dimir Guildmage

4 Aether Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
3 Shadow of Doubt
3 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

This is probably the stupidest thing I've ever said, but I couldn't "find room" for Demonic Tutor. Everything in the deck is pretty redundant, so I don't know if tapping out at sorcery speed for Demonic Tutor is better than playing Demonic Consultation.

Looking at the list, there are a lot of WTF cards and it just looks like a pile in general, so some explanation is needed:

Mesmeric Fiend: If there is a weak link in the creature base, this is it. He fits in at the 2 slot for Vial and can be useful, but he will be the first one to go when a better creature comes along. Even Guilded Drake is something to consider here as it shores up a lot of matchups and fits in the Vial cost.

Dmir Guildmage: You will notice nothing in this deck actually requires tapping blue mana other than Recall, Timewalk, and Stifle. He is in the deck only for the ability to remove to FoW. A 2/2 for 2 body that has no useful effects isn't optimal, but he fits in at the vial cost and pitches to Fow.

Aether Vial: Key turn one play, combined with Duress it gives you eight things to open with for one mana.

Chalice of the Void: Strong to drop at one or zero against Stax, Slaver, etc. Dropping an Aether Vial on turn one is so strong. It lets you keep your mana open to cast a Chalice on turn 2 while still getting uncounterable pressure on the board.

Shadow of Doubt: Vial lets you leave your mana open to pump into Wretch and the end of a turn or throw down a Chalice, but it also has synergy with Shadow of Doubt/Stifle. Shadow of Doubt on a Fetchland is its most obvious use, but it can hit the occasional Tinker. Like the Dimir, Shadow of Doubt requires no Blue sources but removes to FoW.

Stifle: Once again, becomes extra strong when Vial allows you to leave mana open. In combination with Shadow of Doubt, and Wastelands, you have a very strong denial engine to slow down Fetches.

The usual suspects like Energy Flux, Diabolic Edict, Cabal Therapy (blows away a Confidant who has overstayed his welcome) and others can formulate a sideboard dependent on the metagame, but there is a new interesting card to consider: Darkblast. Outside of being reusable Welder kill akin to Lava Dart, it can be used in conjunction with Confidant if necessary to prevent life loss.

The maindeck is extremely tight outside of the Fiend (Gilded Drake needs serious consideration), but the sideboard is quite tweakable.

The main question to consider when discussing this deck is: "What does Black do for fish better than White or Red?"

Duress/FoW as an imposing disruption package, Wretch is a house in current environment, and the Dark Confidant brings a card card drawing engine to keep the pressure on with Stifle/SoD.

[Joblin Velder]

Confidant + Force of Will for the lose. I think I'd rather use Cabal Theraby with Confidant in the deck.

[Arvid]

If Dimir Guildmage only pitches to FoW wouldn't it be better to replace it with a useful blue card, such as Waterfront Bouncer, Ninja of Deep Hours, Rootwater Thief, Magus of the Unseen or Gilded Drake?

[Onslaught]

Confidant + Force of Will for the lose. I think I'd rather use Cabal Theraby with Confidant in the deck.

Painful, but worth the risk (and a slight occurance). Even then, not that game ending. Burning yourself down to 4-5 doesn't really matter when you're going to lose to their game winning play anyways.

If Dimir Guildmage only pitches to FoW wouldn't it be better to replace it with a useful blue card, such as Waterfront Bouncer, Ninja of Deep Hours, Rootwater Thief, Magus of the Unseen or Gilded Drake?

It, like Shadow of Doubt, pitches to FoW but can be cast with black mana. That is a huge plus and perhaps the main synergy of the deck.

[Arvid]

@Onslaught:
I still see no reason to play a worthless card instead of a good one. The ideas I came up with only costs one blue and you still got 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Underground Sea, 1 Island, 1 Mox Sapphire and 4 Aether Vial. If the mana cost is such as problem (which it isn't) just add a few more fetches or pain lands. If you still want to include cards that you aren't supposed to play I think Misdirection is superior pitching to FoW than Dimir Guildmage, since it occasionally can be played pitching a Stifle/Shadow of Doubt.

[Dralock]

I too believe dark confidant is worthless for type 1. But lets go ahead and break it down:

Pros:

2/1 for 1B
You get an extra card

Cons:

Card does massive damage to you
You play with your first drawn card every turn revealed
You automatically take damage from your beater before your opponent

I dunno man, you might as well be playing with phyrexian arena.

[49 Cents]

You have no real Drawengine. Try Sensei's Diving Top with 5/6 Fetch. It was MADE for Confidant (or reverse, whatever).

[Moxlotus]

Is there a reason why there is no Factories?

Guildmage sucks the fat one.  He is essentially 2/2 beater with no abilities.

[Necrologia]

What's with all the bashing of Dark Confidant? He's a solid 2 power beater for 2, and last I heard card advantage is pretty good. As for "massive" damage, are you kidding me? The only card in this deck that costs more than 2 is Force of Will, so unless you rip 3 of those in a row you're fine. On average you'll take no more damage from a Confidant each turn than a tapped Vault, and anyone who tells me 1-2 a turn is unacceptable is crazy. In the current meta, unless you're playing against FCG or the mirror, life is irrelevant. Gifts, Stax, and CS all tend to completely ignore your life total until they combo out/lock you down. In those match-ups I'll gladly lose half my life if it means I saw 4 or 5 extra cards, thank you.

Demonic Tutor, Demonic Consultation, and Cabal Therapy should all probably find a way into the main deck. Duress/Therapy/Fiend combine to give you a brutal disruption package and the 2 tutors are, well tutors. The first slot I'd look at is Stifle, which might be a little redundant thanks to Shadow of a Doubt.

I'm also going to agree that the guildmage needs to go for something more relevant. Arvid already posted everything I can come up with off the top of my head. The fact that you can play the guildmage for black is bordering on irrelevant, and certainly not the main synergy of the deck. If you can't support a 2 color mana base with duals, fetches, and vial you're doing something terribly wrong.

[AmbivalentDuck]

If Dimir Guildmage only pitches to FoW wouldn't it be better to replace it with a useful blue card, such as Waterfront Bouncer, Ninja of Deep Hours, Rootwater Thief, Magus of the Unseen or Gilded Drake?

I second that.  Also, you're running so many four-ofs that almost have to run Demonic Consultation.  Run the 4th Chalice.  When you want it, you'll want it in your opening hand.  When you don't want it, you'll be boarding out all 4.

And where are the Jittes?  You know...the beat sticks that kill Welders and can offset the life loss...

[Dipstik]

The nice thing about the white creatures is that they aren't hurt by suppression field. Is anyone concerned by this?

[xrobx]

The first thing I thought of when I saw the new set is UBfish, and I do think Dark Confidant has the power to put this deck into high placings and tier 1 play.

Basically, it's a beater that offers a LOA effect every single turn; with the obvious loss of life.  Umezawa's Jitte not only fixes this problem, as it gains you life, but is the most obvious choice for a mana outlet, and creature control, that it makes the two a must-have in this style of deck.  You are gaining card advantage through a silly 2 mana creature, and board control through a Jitte.  What else do you need?  Tempo is an obvious conclusion, and this deck can warrant just that.

Dependant on your creature setup, I believe this deck can thrive on its effective creatures, and gain ridiculous card advantage in the forms of Ninja, Dark Confidant, and possibly the hippy-mage known as dimir cutpurse.  The cutpurse allows you to gain card advantage and set them back in handsize, which reduces the chances of their disruption towards your main goal: board control and tempo.

UB fish looks quite good at first glance with the new card additions.  I don't really have much more insight to the matter, as I'm still working out my own decklist.  I believe most of the cards mentioned can play a signifigant role in the production of this deck, and I think the cabal/duress/confidant idea is great for disruption, coupled with wasteland/strip and of course FoW.  Challice looks decent here also, which gives you multiple ways of disrupting your opponents gameplan while setting up board control and winning with a few neat little creatures.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I think if you run UB fish, you'll need more than wretch & co. the wretch is pretty hoss, but it does tie down your mana. A card that I HIGHLY recommend you look at is skullsnatcher. He's INSANE and can basically come down for 1. Mistblade shinobi is also a pretty good replacement for bouncer (last time I checked, DSC and akromas are still in the format).

In the end, it still boils down to the fact that white is better than black in fish. Mage prevents the topdeck AND makes cards dead in opponents' hand, while discard doesn't stop brainstorm + the topdeck.

One last thing...people should REALLY be playing Jitte, it kills welders, provides an actual threat, and actually allows you to race shit like FCG.

-Bob

[xrobx]

Discard may not stop brainstorm + topdeck, but it does reduce its efficiency drastically.  Also, daze is very nice backup for duress effects in most matchups.

[Wolven]

just a thought, but dark confident has some petty good synergy with divining top. it might be worth testing, since it also allows for a steady stream of threats.

aside; sorry for the typing,  my shift key is broken.

[J J P]

If you are looking for synergy try Dark Confidant together with Chains of Mephistopheles. I don't believe it is great but one could build some crappy suicide deck around this card advantage engine.

[Das_Boot]

I think that Blue should be mostly a splash in this deck.  Stifle, Time Walk, and Ancestral are good, but when you have to run Grizzly Bears to fill your FOW requirements, something is wrong.  IMO the deck at its best will essentially be Suicide/U as opposed to UB Fish.

Here are the things in the list that I think just aren't optimal:  I think that Force of Will should be Chains of Mephistopheles.  For two mana, you get a card that is amazing against Gifts and Control Slaver and good against two kinds of Stax.  If you don't feel comfortable running this card, I think probably you should be running a different deck, but Mana Leak isn't bad either.  If you are going to play Chalice, you should play four, more Moxen, and possibly Jitte, because this deck really can use the colorless mana, but if you are not going to make use of the freedom it gives you, then I would run 4 Null Rod, which is an amazing bomb against every one of the top decks, for sure cut Vial, and add 3 of any number of maindeck contenders (last Shadow of Doubt, Phyrexian Negator, Cabal Therapy, more mana).  Finally, you really have no reason not to be playing with Dark Rituals, less duals, more fetches, and less overall lands.

Also, Vial, while nice, is, in my opinion, a fundamental misunderstanding of how this deck works.  With the current 8 targeted discard spells, Chalices/Null Rods, Stifles, Shadow of Doubts, Wastelands, Withered Wretches, whatever you play in the current FOW spot, etc, there is no doubt that this deck packs an incredible disruptive wallop.  However, what does the deck do in terms of aggression?  Defining aggression as the playing of something that will win the game imminently if not dealt with, this deck has little to no aggression.  Dark Confidant, for example, will give you an advantage if not dealt with, but there is currently little to nothing you can draw with that advantage that will win you the game now, simply answers that disrupt your opponent.  The reverse is true for you opponent.  They have lots of spells that will win them the game if not dealt with, spells that come down in the first couple of turns.  How does this relate to Vial?  Firstly, since you have to play control, Vials, while nice, don't really do anything to control except save your mana for a couple of turns, and Dark Rituals and other acceleration do that better.  Secondly, as control, you are forced to answer the other player's aggressive threats in turns one and two, and Vial cripples that plan, giving the opponent free rein on turn one and requiring an amazing turn 2 to come back.  Thirdly, as an interactive control deck, Vial's gift of uncounterability really isn't a bonus like it is in, say, Legacy Goblins, because they really don't have to answer your creatures, except for maybe Withered Wretch.

The good thing about the position of a control deck is that your control cards really are potent, each being of stellar individual quality and many shutting down large chunks of an opponent's deck by themselves.  However, the cards each deal with a specific category of cards that an opponent plays, so, if Shadow of Doubt is missing from your current position, the opponent gets a great chance to topdeck a tutor or Tinker in the following turns.  Therefore, I think Phyrexian Negator is a great choice in this deck.  The colorless mana in his cost mean that he can really take advantage of more acceleration, he provides a real clock to actually allow you to play aggro-control, he is a threat that the opponent actually has to deal with, and he will just steal games due to current Vintage's inability to deal with large fast creatures.  By himself he cuts the number of draw steps your opponent will have in half.

Jitte is really, really good too, and I hope they can be fit in.

Finally, to end this long, rambling post, here is what I think is optimal, based on my reasons above.

Mana (25)
4x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
4x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
1x Lotus
3x Moxen
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

Creatures (15)
4x Mesmeric Fiend
4x Withered Wretch
(3-)4x Dark Confidant
3(-4)x Phyrexian Negator

Noncreature Disruption (21)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Duress
4x Chains of Mephistopheles
(2-)3x Stifle
3(-4)x Shadow of Doubt
(0-)1x Demonic Consultation
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
0(-2)x Jitte

SB:
Pithing Needle, Jitte, Null Rod, Energy Flux, In The Eye Of Chaos, final copies of cards, Tinker answers.

Yeah, it's 61 cards.  So sue me.  Flexibilities are listed.  If you feel the need to cut one card slot for whatever reason, I would make it Stifle or Chalice.  The mana is only mediocre, it has to balance explosiveness, 5 Strips, and 2 colors.

That was probably the longest post in the history of the world.

[J J P]

I don't see the point in splashing blue. Black already has draw and disruption and you can't play FoW because of its CC. White looks like a better option to me - you get more cheap and disruptive creatures, artifact hate and creature removal.

[Onslaught]

@Onslaught:
I still see no reason to play a worthless card instead of a good one. The ideas I came up with only costs one blue and you still got 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Underground Sea, 1 Island, 1 Mox Sapphire and 4 Aether Vial. If the mana cost is such as problem (which it isn't) just add a few more fetches or pain lands. If you still want to include cards that you aren't supposed to play I think Misdirection is superior pitching to FoW than Dimir Guildmage, since it occasionally can be played pitching a Stifle/Shadow of Doubt.

Point taken, but it has to be a creature instead of Misdirection. 12 is too light for a deck that wins by swinging with small guys. I was already on the fence about Gilded Drake taking Mesmeric Fiends slot, but he fits in nicely for the Guildmage as well.

I too believe dark confidant is worthless for type 1. But lets go ahead and break it down:

Pros:

2/1 for 1B
You get an extra card

Cons:

Card does massive damage to you
You play with your first drawn card every turn revealed
You automatically take damage from your beater before your opponent

I dunno man, you might as well be playing with phyrexian arena.

Yes, a 3 CC enchantment and a weenie that provides a draw engine are identical. Thank you for your insightful contribution to the thread.

In the current meta, unless you're playing against FCG or the mirror, life is irrelevant. Gifts, Stax, and CS all tend to completely ignore your life total until they combo out/lock you down. In those match-ups I'll gladly lose half my life if it means I saw 4 or 5 extra cards, thank you.

Exactly.

Cabal Therapy should all probably find a way into the main deck.

I don't think there is room in the maindeck for it without dropping low on blue for FoW, but seems like a certainty in the sideboard.

In the end, it still boils down to the fact that white is better than black in fish.

I touched upon this in the first post, and I fear you may be right. However, I think Dark Confidant is something dynamic enough to at least give the deck a chance.

just a thought, but dark confident has some petty good synergy with divining top. it might be worth testing, since it also allows for a steady stream of threats.

In theory, this makes sense. However, if you play a few games with the deck you'll see that it doesn't flow right. If you aren't tapping out on your turn to toss down a creature (hopefully a Vial is in play) or Chalice, its a stronger play to leave Stifle/Doubt mana open. Space issues aside, you also will be setting Chalice at one quite a bit. If anything, the only library manipulation I would consider would be Brainstorm, thanks to it being an instant.

If you are looking for synergy try Dark Confidant together with Chains of Mephistopheles

Like the Dredge mechanic, there is definetely something to this in combination with the Dark Confidant. Whether or not its a sideboard (or maindeck even) card in this deck or a mono black version will be determined with more testing.

Das_Boot's post

Some good stuff to be drawn from this, but a completely different direction from where I envision the deck going. Force of Will is the entire reason for splashing blue (and thusly not just being suicide black), not Stifle. To me, FoW and Aether Vial are the point of the deck.

I don't see the point in splashing blue. Black already has draw and disruption and you can't play FoW because of its CC. White looks like a better option to me - you get more cheap and disruptive creatures, artifact hate and creature removal.

What?
-----------------------------------------------
There are a few deviations now that you can take with the list:
-The list in the original post, with Gilded Drake in place of Dimir Guildmage:

4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
4 Gilded Drake

4 Aether Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
3 Shadow of Doubt
3 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Simple enough.

-The list in the OP, with Gilded drake in place of Guildmage and Waterfront Bouncer in place of Mesmeric Fiend:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
4 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Gilded Drake

4 Aether Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
3 Shadow of Doubt
3 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Seems to be an interesting take with the interaction of Drake/Bouncer and some incredibly strong matchups.

-Jitte version:

4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
4 Gilded Drake

4 Aether Vial
4 Umezawa's Jitte
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Since the only creature without a 1 in the casting cost is Withered Wretch, I think a Jitte version would run a full set of Moxes. I'm not discounting the playability of Jitte, but I don't see room for it in the OP list without going dangerously low on blue to pitch to FoW. Also, not the change of Duress to Brainstorm for this reason.

Is there a reason why there is no Factories?

It was either Wastelands or those, though I would imagine a mono black version with the 8 U/B cards and 4 FoW could have both. In that case...

-Mono Black with Factories and FoW

4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
4 Dimir Guildmage
4 Vodalian Zombie

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Aether Vial
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Shadow of Doubt
4 Chains of Mephistopholes


4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
9 Swamp

That looks especially terrible. Note the necessity of Guildmage and VOLIDIAN ZOMBIE in a deck with an all black mana base. Perhaps with more dual costed cards like Shadow of Doubt, this would become more viable. With the Mishra's Factory x4, Standstill becomes somewhat attractive (at the expense of Wasteland).

-Mishra's Factory and Standstill

4 Waterfont Bouncer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
3 Gilded Drake

3 Chalice of the Void
4 Aether Vial
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
3 Shadow of Doubt
4 Standstill
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
1 Island

That one doesn't look so bad compared to the more standard original lists, so I suppose it would become preference of Wasteland vs. Factory.

-Bonus Budget look.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Withered Wretch
4 Waterfront Bouncer

4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Shadow of Doubt
4 Stifle
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Swamp
1 Island

 

Hell, you could even go into ridiculous budget mode and cut the fetches and Undergrounds, allowing you to go mono-black. I think I've typed enough decklists for tonight, so something like that would be -4 Bouncer, -4 Fiend, +4 Guildmage, +4 VOLIDIAN ZOMBIE (!), -4 Stifle, +4 black card (I guess Chains isn't too budget), -4 Delta, -4 Underground, -1 Island, +4 Factory, +5 Swamp.
------------------------------------

Ok, that was a really long post, and I fear I may have gone too far off tanget with the budget lists. However, I hope that this archetype can continue to be developed seriously. If, in that jumble of typing, there is something that needs to be clarified- please let me know.

[J J P]

I just don't like the idea of killing myself by accidentialy revealing FoW with Dark Confidant.

[Necrologia]

I just don't like the idea of killing myself by accidentialy revealing FoW with Dark Confidant.

Once again, the odds of that happening are practically 0. Let's review:

The only matchups where there is a difference between 2 life and 30 are against fish, FCG, and maybe something you'll play against in round 1. To be fair Shop aggro's a solid deck but virtually no one plays it. This is true in all meta-games that are even remotely developed. If you're seeing tons of aggro, why are you playing fish? Aggro control aims to beat control, but has a rough time against aggro. If aggro is everywhere, this is not the deck for you.

Assuming now that you're in a decent metagame, all the top decks will do nothing to you until they're going to win. Gifts gets out an 11/11 and Time Walks several times, CS gets Slaver recursion going, Stax gets Crucible/Strip/Stax. In all these cases, your life total is completely irrelevant. If anything you'll be happy to have fit that Force, as now you have another counter in your hand.

If you haven't done so yet, I highly recommend you read Jacob Orlove's article here. As a brief summary of what's relevant to this discussion, in Vintage we have way more life than we need, and each additional card can be insane. That means that cards that can convert life into cards are very good, particularly in Vintage. See also: Necropotence, Bargain.

Dark Confidant is one of those cards like Demonic Consultation. Both are amazing cards, and if you find yourself doubting that, you aren't nearly as good of a player as you think you are. I'm trying to avoid sounding like an arrogant prick, but not liking a bear that draw cards in this format because of the life loss is ludicrous. You could maybe argue that 2 mana 2/x s aren't threatening enough, but worrying about the life loss? That's just crazy talk.

[xrobx]

I was just going to comment on the exact same point, but Necro got to it first 

Anyhow, to reitterate I guess, the loss of life is very insignificant.  This deck, does have problems with aggro.  We can effectively demolish control, most combo, and most MWS decks.  However, MWSaggro can be a very difficult matchup.  A good reminder to fish players is that you MUST use each card to its maximum efficiency.  I played against a MWSaggro deck the other day, and my opponent managed a turn 2 razormane under a Sphere of Resistance.  I ended up killing the razormane with a simple duress.

On the large scale, this deck will lose to almost every aggro deck that is out there.  That is to say, that it will lose to any tier 1/2/3 aggror deck.  Yes, waterfront bouncer+ gilded drake have nice synergy.  No, this is not sufficient for the aggro matchup.

My build is quite different than what most people have listed, as I believe it is necessary to run the 2 most powerful cards in the format (Tinker->DSC and Yawgwin).  It only makes sense.  Sure, you may not have a whole heck of alot to do with Will if you don't have a shitload of mana, but depending on how you setup your manabase, you can use it quite effectively at any point in the game, past turn 2/3.  I would never say will is a dead card. On the same note, it is true for tinker.  If you get DSC in your hand, you may have to rely on discarding it.  However, you may also use tinker for a jitte, and that will get you out of MANY sticky situations.

In my unfinished build, I'm currently running factories, wastes, FoWs, duresses, and chalices.  I believe chalice is a necessity in this deck, as it allows you to run aether vial.  Vial is quite useless without chalice, and might as well be replaced for card advantage (a la nights whisper/brainstorm/etc etc..).

So, it boils down to us having 60 cards, while running FoW (because you HAVE to if it's blue), challice, a good complement of critters, along with sufficient creature removal; dependent on the meta.

In my meta, there are tons of creatures....yippy.  I'll continue work on this deck and post relevant information as it comes available.

[AmbivalentDuck]

-Jitte version:

4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
4 Gilded Drake

4 Aether Vial
4 Umezawa's Jitte
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Since the only creature without a 1 in the casting cost is Withered Wretch, I think a Jitte version would run a full set of Moxes. I'm not discounting the playability of Jitte, but I don't see room for it in the OP list without going dangerously low on blue to pitch to FoW. Also, not the change of Duress to Brainstorm for this reason.

It think ths list would be really good with a few changes.  First, Stifle is conditional enough that you could safely cut 1 for a Demonic Consultation.  87% of the time that you want Consultation to be Stifle, it will become Stifle without an issue.  The rest of the time, it'll be infinitely more flexible.

Why Gilded Drake?  I think that Diabolic Edict does the same thing and does it better.  It removes permanents against Stax, it's an instant, it takes care of Worldgorgers, and it doesn't block your creatures.  So, if you really think it's necessary...that's where I'd take it.  Rootwater Thief is likely the better card.  But that's me preferring pro-active disruption to reactive disruption.  ESPECIALLY when you can take their Colossus out of the game turn 2.  You're running a full set of Moxen...abuse them.  The rituals I mention below would let you play a second threat that same turn.

Since you're running the moxen, just cut vials.  I'd think hard about cutting Sol Ring and the Vials for 4 Dark Ritual and a Yawgmoth's Will.  You're going to play your threats turn 1 before Mana Drain comes online.  The rituals would let you abuse your second turn.  Turn 1: mox, land, creature. Turn 2: Ritual, Jitte, equip and attack.  That's a full turn quicker.

Finally...I might use Top over Brainstorm...  I've never tested it myself.  But, I've watched my Extended deck smash face on Magic Online while people pump mana into their Top's trying to find an answer instead of just playing threats.  So, I'm kinda wary of it.  But it might be worth testing here.

[TheWayOfNoWay]

First off I'd like to say that Shadow of Doubt is much more than a cantrip Stifle. It virtually counters Gifts, Tinker, tutors (Demonic, Mystical, Grim, Merchant Scroll), and, if this counts for anything, Goblin Recruiter. The other side of the argument is that Stifle counters land on turn one; the best time to counter a land. Both cards, however, make Wasteland much better by making the loss of one land more relevant.

Also, looking at the lists posted, it seems like the deck's mana base has been somewhat neglected. The lists (and correct me if I've missed a list or miscounted) contain 11-12 permanent black mana sources. That's not a ton. Has anyone found this in testing to be a problem?

[xrobx]

Hmm, if you cut vial, you are obviously going to cut chalice, correct??

It doesn't seem logical to run 4 rituals, all the artifact mana, and challice together...as they counteract eachother, and also, without vials to play un-counterable threats, what is the point?

By adding black, we would speed the deck up immensly and give us options like Will, and quicker creature drops, but is this addition better than the disruption provided through chalice?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Most of what Chalice does requires that it come down turn 1.  Unless you KNOW you're going first...  And the decks most affected by it now run multiple maindeck Gorilla Shamans.

Uncounterable is irrevelent.  You like it when your creatures are Force of Will-ed.  You get card advantage.  It's only bad if they get Drained.  Mana Drain takes TWO turns to come online.  So if you go first, you have two turns before Mana Drain comes up.  Other Fish builds use the Vial to get two colored mana creatures (Meddling Mage) out under Mana Drain with few moxen.  We don't need that.

Shadow of Doubt is strictly worse than Stifle in this deck.  You need your second turn. In vial Fish it's not the case, here it is.  Vial Fish wants disruption turn 2.  We want threats.  And remember, we have Mesmeric Fiend to PROACTIVELY learn what their threats are and handle them. 

[J J P]

You like it when your creatures are Force of Will-ed.  You get card advantage. 

You should be playing for tempo, not for card advantage. Having your creatures countered is bad.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Having a creature countered turn 1 and playing another on turn 2 is worse than waiting till turn 3 to play a threat?  Both ways you lose 1 card.  This way, you have a creature one turn faster IF they force it.  And it'll be an opening hand Force, likely against something they didn't want to lose.

[Das_Boot]

I honestly think Gilded Drake is not the answer you are looking for.  It is highly conditional and not a threat until/unless your opponent has played one, one that also has to be a creature. 

@JJP:  No, it is not bad.  Nabbing two cards one of which has to be blue on the first turn is a great trade.

@Ambivalent Duck:
I agree that Chalice is probably bad, and if it isn't, why play 3?  About Shadow of Doubt being strictly worse than Stifle, though, I disagree.  Firstly, what non-disruption card do you want on turn 2?  The whole deck is disruption.  Shadow of Doubt is also still good past turn 2, as it prevents like 11 or so cards in most decks and cantrips.

@xrobx:
I don't understand your post.  The inclusion of Chalice affects Vial, and not the other way around.  Rituals, artifact mana, and Chalice don't counteract each other at all,and without Vial, the point of them remains the same.  Also, the deck already has black and still plays Chalice.

@Onslaught:
I still am not convinced that the design constraints imposed by FOW don't outweigh the benefit.  I would really rather play Mana Leak, and I think you are too scared off by the stigma associated with sui.  However, just assuming that FOW is played for the sake of argument, I have a couple of comments about these lists.

First list: Null Rod is really really really good.  Since you are going with the low Moxen base and no Jittes, I think that cutting Vials and Chalices for Rituals and Null Rods would really help.  For better or worse, FOW is really killing that Gilded Drake spot, because Negators and Jittes are both way better threats and clocks (although then you have the Rod/Negator or Chalice/Jitte choice).  Also fetches > duals.

Second list:  Not a big fan, but it is designed to do a specific thing and it does that.

Jitte Version:  I think that rituals go in before Moxen, and also you only have 12 creatures to wear the Jitte.  I would cut a Jitte also.  The deck really runs low on the disruption that makes or breaks these decks, too, and Brainstorm isn't really that good here.

Mono-Black version:  Ewww.  You can 1) make the deck mono-B sui and not suck by cutting Force of Will and the 8 crappy cards that come with it or 2) go to 7-8 fetches, add an Underground Sea, and almost painlessly splash real blue (going exactly to where you were in the first list.)

[madmanmike25]

I agree that gilded drake is too slow, especially versus a dragon.  One thing I noticed with these builds(along with several of my own) is that the cc for creatures is 2.  I think this alone warrants the vials over the null rods.  For example, if you are playing against stax/workshop aggro, if they lay down chalice for 2(not that hard to do..) you scoop.  If you have vials, you are still in the game.  Also, I really think jitte's complement the deck well for a faster clock(needed) and possible card advantage through creature kills.

But truth be told, Dark Confidant can be great.  I have seen several 'fish type' decks with him including mono black, U/B, and B/W.  the life total should not be an issue, a beater that can draw cards that comes down easily with moxen first turn is good.  Also in combination with a jitte, you need not worry about dying to DC.  I am also of the belief that moxen are better than dark rituals and help to accelerate the deck better than just once.  I feel that rituals belong in combo decks and dead sui black decks.  How powerful is your turn going to be with that 3 mana that you are willing to lose card advantage over it?? Really, dark rituals should be in decks that can ABUSE it better, not just be assisted by it.  Anyone else out there agree with that statement??  Also, with moxen, the abiltiy to cast a fiend 1st turns gives you 8 duresses, so to speak, and that dirsruption can be crucial on turn 1. 

I think we need to evaluate which deck can make most use of the confidant, blue or white.  What is better, forces, stifles and shadows of doubt, or swords to plowshares and disenchants/seals????