More "chain" cards

[Marco]

I haven't forgotten about or given up on this "chain" mechanic. I recently came up with a red card and a green card to complete the cycle. I thought I would throw them out there and see what people think.

Card Name

Sorcery
Target player sacrifices a permanent. Then that permanent's controller may pay . If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.

Too good? I would like to see a cheaper Misguided Rage. I would be okay with to prevent this from being a first-turn Stone Rain for . (Although, if your opponent didn't tap their first-turn land, they can pay and make you sacrifice your land. Which makes this not unlike Raze.)

Card Name

Sorcery
Remove target artifact from the game. Then that artifact's controller may pay . If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.

I will admit that I am always interested in making cards to hose Darksteel Colossus. Like my Atomize. Again, I would be okay with {G}. This is obviously one-sided if you do not have any artifacts in play, but isn't Oxidize just as good as (if not better than) this?

[Marco]

Current Wording:

Revanche
1W
Instant
Destroy target creature. It can't be regenerated. Then that creature's controller may pay 1. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.

Card Name
U
Instant
Return target artifact, enchantment, or land to its owner's hand. Then that player may pay 1. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.

Usurp
B
Sorcery
Look at target opponent's hand and choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. Then that player may pay 1. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.

Card Name
R
Sorcery
Target player sacrifices a nonland permanent. Then that permanent's controller may pay 1. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.

Card Name
G
Sorcery
Remove target artifact from the game. Then that artifact's controller may pay 1. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.

[rvs]

The cards are definately on the edge, but I think they're fine.

[Jacob Orlove]

I wasn't around for the other thread on this mechanic, but these are both undercosted. The green one is very close to fair, based on Oxidize, but at that point it seems very redundant.

The red one is super abusive if your opponent taps out any time in the first two turns, and if he doesn't you're winning anyway.

Incidentally, that white one you made before is broken in constructed, and the black one was also too good (if it couldn't hit lands, it might be okay). It looks like that thread was never added to the master list, though.

[Marco]

The green one is very close to fair, based on Oxidize, but at that point it seems very redundant.

Do you mean why would anyone play this when they can play Oxidize? Well, it can kill Darksteel Colossus whereas Oxidize cannot. And it is a Burning Wish target, whereas Oxidize is not. And it removes the artifact from the game so that it cannot be brought back with Goblin Welder. If I made it 1G would it be do-able?

The red one is super abusive if your opponent taps out any time in the first two turns, and if he doesn't you're winning anyway.

Again, if I made it 1R and/or made it "Target player sacrifices a nonland permanent"? (That would actually make it better in many ways.)

Incidentally, that white one you made before is broken in constructed, and the black one was also too good (if it couldn't hit lands, it might be okay). It looks like that thread was never added to the master list, though.

Can elaborate on the white one? I understand the nonland comment about the black one (and the even the blue one). I can make it:

Usurp
B
Sorcery
Look at target opponent's hand and choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. Then that player may pay 1. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.

No, the cards were not added to the Master List, but I am interested in revisiting them and improving them.

Edit: Are these flawed because they can be played on your first turn when your opponent has tapped out for a one-drop or a spell (or before they have even had their turn in the case of the black one), thus eliminating the drawback of having it "chained" back to you? Or is that the point? Chain Lightning was played because many opponents didn't have red mana to tap, let alone two red mana.

[Jacob Orlove]

Oh, I missed that the green one was a sorcery. It's fine then.

Yeah, the aspect of these to be careful of is that you can cast them when you're tapped out. Look at how the Onslaught chain spells don't require mana payments to chain them back--that's to prevent abusive situations.

The red one would probably be fine at 1R and nonland, or R and "play this spell only if you control a nonland permanent".

The problem with the white one is that you can remove any creature and if you're playing a creatureless deck (or just don't have an early creature out), they can't chain it back. It should probably cost more, since it'd be hard to add a targeting restriction.

The black one is fine if it can't hit lands--better than Duress sometimes, but much worse at other times.

[Marco]

Changes made, and I added the other cards to this thread.

Can I get away with the red one at with the nonland restriction, or does it have to be ?

Can I get away with the white one at {W}, or should it be {W} or {W}?

[JAG]

The white one is very very powerful.  A creatureless or near-creatureless deck can use it as a 1W terminate, which is a bit overpowered.  It certainly should cost at least 3, probably 1WW.

The black one is very strong even if it can't hit lands.  Think about how good Duress was.  This card is much better in the early game, particularly if your opponent foolishly taps out to do something as stupid as trying to develop his board with Sakura Tribe Elder.  God help him if he tries to curve out.  Yes, it is pretty bad in the mid- to late-game...if you still have relevant cards in hand by then.  If you're in a topdeck war, it's still fine to draw if your opponent has a card in his hand (you can even bluff a mana out of them if you draw a land, then this).

Is there some reason the blue one can't bounce creatures?  Chain of Vapor could, why shouldn't this be able to?

I agree that making them all require mana to use is probably not a good idea.  Varying the chain costs is probably your best bet.

-JM

[Matt]

The white one can fixed easily enough:

"If you control a creature, destroy target creature. It can't be regenerated. Then that creature's controller may pay 1. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy."