Don't you Agree

[Smmenen]

That Vintage is fucking terrible right now and Legacy is fucking amazing?

[rvs]

Vintage has been terrible for quite some time. I don't see what makes Legacy so much greater though...

[Matt]

Yes, I agree.

[Eddie]

Vintage is not as good as it was a year ago, although still a lot of fun. Legacy is rather boring IMHO. I'd rather draft with some friends instead. Same speed, but lots of beer and good laughs added.

[Jacob Orlove]

Well, I disagree. Legacy is cute and all, but Vintage has been awesome for as long as I've been playing it.

[Komatteru]

I also disagree.  Legacy is slow and full of boring decks that don't ever do anything interesting.

[dandan]

Legacy slow?

Vintage is still awesome sauce but some horrible good players have made it harder for bad players like me to complete by tuning decks (and even coming up with new ones, which frankly shouldn't be allowed, it certainly didn't use to be).

Legacy is awesome sauce but at a reduced price which means more awesome sauce! It is good to see a format where everyone is sooooo confident that the top two decks are really really easy to beat. Legacy is like Vintage but with a combat phase!! I thought creatures just tapped to switch artifacts.

[Methuselahn]

That's pretty extreme, fucking terrible vs fucking amazing.  Hell no is my answer.  Vintage has never let me down, maybe it is because Legacy is still relatively new that it appears to be amazing to some.

[Kowal]

I actually enjoy Vintage right now quite a bit more than I have in a while.

[Machinus]

I like them both a lot, but I am playing way more Legacy.

[Bram]

I hate you all.

OK, maybe not all. Just everyone that agrees with that. And maybe not hate. Just disappointment.


[edit] Allow me to elaborate on that. No, I don't agree. Vintage is still awesome. It has ups and downs and we're currently in a down (though in my opinion, it's more of a decreased-interest-by-the-community down than an oh-man-this-meta-sucks down) but I'm sure we'll recover. If people like Steve would quit dogging my format, that is. Steve, I can't believe you seem to be actively trying to bring down something you helped build. You were *the* prime innovator for Vintage. I don't have a problem with you (or anyone) liking and supporting Legacy, and if you don't want to play Vintage anymore, that's fine too (though highly regrettable). But if influential people like you start actively trying to get players to quit Vintage and take up Legacy, that really hurts the format. Your words carry more power than you might think. They become a self-fulfilling prophecy. And we all know how much everyone hated Prophecy.

As you may have guessed by now, I do not enjoy Legacy. Apparently, many people do, however, and for this reason they have turned to this novelty format like so many Pokemon players. I'd go so far as to say the only thing wrong with Vintage is Legacy.

[Matt]

I haven't liked Vintage since Madness was good.

[kl0wn]

I haven't played in a Type 1 tournament in a fairly long time (since the SCG Rochester + Syracuse Power 9 weekend) so I have no idea what's going on in Vintage at the moment.

I DO however have an interest in playing Legacy for the simple fact that I can play Haunting Echoes as something better than a win-more toy.

Why would somebody think that Vintage sucks right now anyway? Last I heard, there wasn't any stupidity going on in the format. Am I wrong about this?

[Vegeta2711]

Jack McCoy, you are not.

[Smmenen]

Me?  I wasn't trying to be. 

[Shock Wave]

Vintage isn't the greatest right now, but Legacy is definitely not any better. I don't see anything good about a format where there is 1 deck that is almost strictly superior to everything else. Affinity T2 anyone?

[Anusien]

That Vintage is fucking terrible right now and Legacy is fucking amazing?

Are you trying to establish that Legacy is supplanting Vintage, or that it isn't.  Either way, you lose.  I think most of us here absolutely love Vintage, but we'll take a look at Legacy the same way we took a look at Extended.  Okay, I'm in slightly a different boat, but this is a brand new format I can make an impact on.

[Komatteru]

But if influential people like you start actively trying to get players to quit Vintage and take up Legacy, that really hurts the format.

[Smmenen]

I think Vintage is going through a really bad soft spot.  It has to do partly with the fact that so many good players have quit and so few have stepped up to replace them, combined with the extreme cost of entering the format, the lack of innovation, devolution of the metagame, and attention to Legacy.  When the innovation returns, then t1 will become good again.  But we also need more proxies and more widespread acceptance of proxies as well as a higher level of competition. 

[Triple_S]

If Type 1 were a patient, it would be in a hospital...perhaps not in trouble of passing away, but being observed for fear of further deterioration.  While I don't know if Legacy is the cause of it (I have to admit it looks a LOT more interesting than Type 1 right now), the metagame has been stagnant for a while now.  TheBrassMan's deck has been singularly dominant from the few observations I've made...and since its drain based it immediately makes me lose interest.  If anything, I think Standard with the infusion of the new duals is infinitely more interesting.

[forests failed you]

Vintage hasn't changed.  If some of you guys have lost interest in playing Type one that is fine;  However, it isn't because Vintage is boring you guys, it is because you are bored with Vintage.  Those are two completely differnt things.

Legacy fucking sucks.  In my opinion, the metagame is underdeveloped, at almost any given tourney half of the field is garbage, and there are only about five people in the world who have any interest in innovating the format.  Legacy is lExtended's bastard little brother that is forced to live in the basement and eat dog food.  After the GP is a disaster and Wizards only gets half as many people as they would have had they ran the event limited the format will be done.  (Not to mention had they done it limited they could also sell all of those packs.)  Legacy is dogshit. 

[Komatteru]

However, it isn't because Vintage is boring you guys, it is because you are bored with Vintage.  Those are two completely differnt things.

This is a good point.  I think the format is a little stagnant right now, but it's still better than anything else going on in Magic by a lot.

After the GP is a disaster and Wizards only gets half as many people as they would have had they ran the event limited the format will be done.

I'll have to disagree here.  I think this GP has a shot at rivaling GP Paris in attendance (that was 1500, btw).  I expect about 1000 people to go, since you'll have a few hundred Vintage players that normally wouldn't be caught dead at at GP plus the 600-700 they usually get anyway.

[Mykeatog]

Although this may not have been the best place to post this piece of news, Steve is speaking for the world. Sure, here at TYPE 1 THE WEBSITE we may not all agree, but go take a look at ebay and you will see...

what happened to Mana Drain?

what's happening to Time Vault?

So as the vintage community we are used to being ahead of legacy in the 'cool formats' list, but we aren't anymore. We should learn to cope for now.

[Bastian]

Tsc tsc, such resentment on some person's words... Type 1's not dead, but Legacy right now is the new kid on the block, and the fact that it has such an underdevelopped meta makes it even more exciting to build, explore and playtest the format.

Legacy is lExtended's bastard little brother that is forced to live in the basement and eat dog food.

Actually I'd say it's Extended's big brother. For me the real extended was when things like Oath and Gush and Tinker were far from broken and were running around along with the REAL dual lands. After that it was hardly the same again... If such Legacy is exactly what extended was before and probably, then some.

People whining about the underdevelopment of the format probably didn't play Type 1 back in the days when Keeper was the deck to beat and if they did play back then it seems they've pretty much forgotten what the format looked like, its similiarities with Legacy and just how much better Legacy can become if you look on middle and long terms by seeing that it'll develop as far as Type 1 did, and probably then some more, because it's still a more accessible format.

[Pyromaniac]

Disclaimer: Take anything I say with a grain/bucket of salt

On one hand Type 1 is kind of boring atm, at least I think so. I really dislike playing netdecks, so don't expect me to play Gifts any time soon. I played fucking Ravager at the last 2 tournaments (and did well with it, surprisingly). I don't mind people playing proxies in Type 1, as long as it isn't an absurd number. The rule we had at the Gameforce tourneys about only proxying Power and expensive cards was fine by me.

On the other hand, fooling around with new decks is what Type 1 is all about, at least for me and Marco (Bigmac), since we're always coming up with new ideas, so it's a good place to try new ideas. I don't see this happening in 1.5, where you have no real acceleration, and have to be able to race/stop Goblins, which is 'somewhat' overpowered.

It seems that the interest is dwindling in Type 1 though, which is probably caused by Legacy just getting off the ground now. The GP's which will be held in it are a big incentive to playtest the format, and there are no degenerate combo's (yet, disregard Vault for the moment, cause I dunno what will happen with that. Also, disregard "Mountain, Lackey, go"). I like playing Legacy, but we've sort of stopped with it for the moment, because there are few tourneys in the format, as any weekend you can play 2-3 different vintage tournaments in The Netherlands, but few-no Legacy. Also, the Dutch Vintage Champs are right around the corner, well, a few weeks at least, but whatever, so we're mostly investing time in those.

Another reason might be....

I'm willing to guess that people are 'overloaded' with tourneys atm. It's not like I'll go to an event every weekend, even though they are there. Likewise, other people won't either. I don't mind travelling a bit for events, cause it's a way to have a good time with other people you know, play the game you like etc etc. This results in lots of small tournaments, since people aren't willing to travel more then say an hour, when they have an event next week, or in 2 weeks which is only 30 mins away.

Castricum and Eindhoven were the only 'big' events in Holland, but now we don't average even 30 people in Eindhoven, because of competition from other events (most noticably, Iserlohn in Germany, which, in typical style, is ALWAYS on the same date as Eindhoven, which means we'll be shifting Eindhoven to the first/second week of the month, to get more attendance). Also, we'd like to visit Iserlohn on a semi-regular basis.

Seeing I'm looking for a permanent job atm, and doing a lot of part-time work with various companies/people, I don't want to spend every weekend playing/travelling for Magic, I want some free time as well, to just relax. The average age of Type 1 players is so that the majority of them are in the same group as me, we're finishing educations, schools and starting with 'real life', which means that we have fewer and fewer time to spend on our hobby.

[/rant]

This concludes this post, at least for the moment

[BigMac]

I do not think legacy is better than vintage. I do however think that the legacy GP is not helping in the development of vintage at the moment. Many vintage people that normally play tournaments now choose to test and play tournaments of legacy. I think that will end as soon as the GP/protour legacy cycle ends. The former vintage players will turn back to vintage as that is a vibrant and living format in which you can use all cards. Also proxies are wider accepted. In the end people will turn back to vintage as it is the mother of magic. And everybody (exceptions make the rule) turns back to mother eventually.

So i think it is a faze we all have to get through and good times will return.

[Bastian]

BigMac I think you are seriously biased in the comments you keep making.

The former vintage players will turn back to vintage as that is a vibrant and living format in which you can use all cards.

This is off-topic, but this comment is not quite true. You may use any card in the game, yes, but the fact is that not all cards are viable, now are they, when you start playing with so many broken things. And in serious competition, unless players are allowed to play proxies then it's extremely hard for any player without power to actually be able to play vintage. This said, just because you can use any card in the game, the fact is that dozens that might see play on other formats don't see any play at all in Vintage because of that. Actually, it's quite ironic, because if I'm not mistaken Legacy is a lot less restrictive in what cards you get to play or not simply because it doesn't have the same brokeness as Vintage.

Vintage is dominated by a handfull of power cards and it'll always be that way. And as long as it is this way there'll be dozens of others that are simply of no use.

Legacy is a fresh format, Vintage is becoming a stagnant one because it's a lot harder to impact Vintage than it is Legacy, although neither has rotations. It takes a really really good card to break the format and introduce novelty in Vintage. Example: just how many cards from Ravnica are going to impact Vintage? And just how many more will be impacting Legacy? Every set that comes from now on will be able to introduce to Legacy far more changes than it'll be doing to Vintage, meaning that there are far less chances for Legacy to get to where Vintage is right now. It's not impossible, but it's rather unlikely...

And everybody (exceptions make the rule) turns back to mother eventually.

Biased, again.

So i think it is a faze we all have to get through and good times will return.

It's a phase, yes. The format's fresh and unexplored, so it's quite exciting and past this phase the excitement will tone down. But remember that for the most part the format is showing a lot of potential and it might be able to overshadow Vintage. Furthermore it's widely more accessible than Vintage currently is...

[BigMac]

I do not see how i am biased. I see it happening all around me right now. As long as vintage tournaments are held people will come. As soon as GP/Protour legacy is gone it will not have nearly as many tournaments as vintage will. Even right now while a legacy tournament on GP/protour level is comming tournaments are few and long between and i do not see that getting any better any time soon.

I agree that the format is new, but it is hardly vibrant and even harder broken. Right now there are 3 decks dominantly in there (gobbos, landstill and affinity). All other decks so far are comming up short. So i would think that is hardly a better cardpool to draw from than vintage. Sure in vintage many restricted cards have a heavy impact on the format. But right now there are at least 8 decks that could win a tournament when in the hands of a good player.

I also agree that proxy tournaments are necessary in the future to keep the growing vintage community happy and able to play. But the same will go for legacy sooner or later when some older cards get played more to the point of them rising in prise. The only thing they can do is ban such a card for the lack of them being around. In doing so the game will shift again. In vintage this will only happen with a few cards while older restricted ones are comming back one at a time.

PS on topic, i still like vintage a lot but will be giving legacy a try through innovation. Either way, i will keep playing magic. But so far Legacy for me is not as interesting.
As for turning back to the mother, perhaps i am biased, but the people around me that are playing vintage now, will keep doing after the legacy GP, so i am biased based on several people.

About the format being fresh and unexplored. My experience is that there are few people being innovative. So i do not see why with legacy this would be different. In any format there are a few builders and they make the environment. Most people only net.deck. There is nothing wrong with that, but in my oppinnion changing 5 cards or less in a deck is hardly innovation. It is a netdeck with a personal touch but the base is the same. You can call that biased again, i know that, but it is my personal experience over many many years of magic that innovation is far more difficult than playing the game. For that you can look in any format and you will see that there are only a few real builders.

About being more accessible, i think that is not all true. For me it is as accessible as legacy and for most people that have kept their cards throughout the years it is accessible. And sure more cards have been printed. And sure they are for sale now. But prices will go up when demand will rise, that is simple economics. So stocks will go low and to get into legacy will get pricey as well as demand will rise, even if only for a short while.

So in the end every person has a choice. Play vintage and embrace the brokenness of the format. Or play legacy and embrace the few decks viable in the format.

[forests failed you]

Don't get me wrong, I'll be at the GP.

I just think any format that revolves around Flames Fullside and Time Vault is extremely janky.

[Matt]

I just think any format that revolves around Flames Fullside and Time Vault is extremely janky.

That's a ridiculous position to take. A format which revolves around exploiting the same 15 cards for the last ten years - now THAT'S a stupid, boring format.

Legacy is awesome because the decks don't look exactly like each other, and because there are six colors, not just two. There's more variation in builds of Legacy Affinity decks than in many vintage top eights. If you think there are only three viable decks, that only betrays your ignorance of the format.

Legacy will kill Vintage not by stealing away Vintage hearts and minds, but by siphoning off the supply of NEW players. Legacy offers 99% of the Vintage cardpool at about an eighth the Vintage cost. So when a player finds his favorite cards are rotating out of extended, where do you think he's going to go? He has three options: drop the game entirely, pay $100-$200 to play Legacy, or pay $1000-$2000 to play Vintage. Which do you think he's going to do? This is before even factoring in the fact that the effective cardpool of Legacy is much greater than that of Vintage, because the power level renders many good, fine cards unplayable. Because Mox Jet exists, Exploration and Birds of Paradise are unplayable. Because Demonic and Vamp and Seal exist, Survival of the Fittest is unplayable. Because Mishra's Workshop exists, Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors are unplayable.

The people who play Vintage will keep playing Vintage, you're right about that. They have the toys, and they'll use them. But new players* will only very rarely migrate to Vintage, vastly more will make Legacy their Eternal format of choice. No format better maximizes cardpool while minimizing price.

And there's not really anything you can do about it. You might delay the inevitable for awhile by breaking old cards like Steven has been trying to do with Time Vault (trying to drive up the price barrier to Legacy), but the DCI will ban them and the format marches on.



*As in, new Eternal players - who probably have been playing the rotating formats for 1-5 years.