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Author Topic: [Report] Golden Grahams Wins All at Indianapolis GPT  (Read 6779 times)
Tash
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« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2005, 04:19:36 pm »

Giving this topic a small kick. I actually have a question. I know at least one person said they were taking this to a tournament, how did you guys do?

I'm a college student that plays Magic every once in a blue moon, so I don't get as much play out of this as I would like to. So any consistancy reports or anything would be really nice.

Also about EE: I like the idea, but after reading Luiggi's comment about EE it seems kinda hopeless.
Question, though: I take it the one copy of Engineered Explosives would be there in the hopes of hitting it while resolving Gamekeeper's ability, so you can bring it back with Salvagers?

Yeah, that's what it's there for, but if they've got a needle naming Salvagers... well it's not that good then is it. I'm thinking of squeezing 3 EE in here. But I need some cards to get out first.
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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2005, 03:15:10 am »

Tash, have you considered playing 4 maindeck Culling the weak?
It helps you to sacrify gamekeeper and gives you four black useful to start the combo.
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Neonico
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« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2005, 04:19:01 am »

Giving this topic a small kick. I actually have a question. I know at least one person said they were taking this to a tournament, how did you guys do?

Was supposed to play it on october the 15th but i still missing some cards. I go buy them this afternon and I bring it to a 20 24 people tournament next saturday (october the 29th)
Ill make a report. I'm supposed to face gobs, alot, Flame Fusillade (COntrol combo version) WW landstill and high tide perhaps, and some random i dont know yet. Perhaps stompy also.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2005, 04:22:47 am by Neonico » Logged
49 Cents
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« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2005, 07:22:24 pm »

Giving this topic a small kick. I actually have a question. I know at least one person said they were taking this to a tournament, how did you guys do?

Having one tomorrow.. It's 03:00 and I have to leave the house at 07:00.. XX(
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Neonico
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« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2005, 12:20:54 pm »

Ok, just to tell you, i finally bought all the cards i was needed Razz and met a friend at store and did alot of playtest all yesterday (10 hours magic playtest, whoooo gogo)
I mainly tested against Flame Fusillade Control Combo (U/R) and Gobelins.

The deck is really strong and both matchups are favorable. Gobelins 65/35, Flame Fusillade is harder but like between 55/45 and 60/40.

I did some changes to the deck.
First : The tutoring. If tainted pact is really good with the deck as its constructed, i found that Plunge into darkness acts as a better impulse and provides a Creature sacrifice effect. I think its better in the deck. I actually play 2 tainted and 2 plunge and i really consider to change the 2 last Tainted Pact.

That's makes the 4 Innocent blood the 4 cards i actully wanna cut. The therapies allways worked well for me (In 10 hours of playtests, i just used Innocent blood on my gamekeeper only once). I was thinking of cutting them for more draw effects, perhaps the missing Night's Whisper, some Skeletal Scrying.

Second : If i cut the tainted pact, i think that the deck need at least one or 2 more lands. Perhaps also to consider in the Innocent Blood spots.

About the Sideboard, EE worked REALLY GREATLY against gobos and needle. Chalice is a good hoser against fast combo and tsunami is definatly great against control and solidarity. That leaves me with 6 spots for Wish tool box. I chosen :
 - 2 Colossus
 - 1 Gamekeeper
 - 1 Eternal Witness
 - 1 Flamewave Invoker (I dont get a maga Confused)
 - 1 Uktabi Oran Outang
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49 Cents
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« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2005, 01:18:18 pm »

I played the deck today and finished third place.. I had a Xantid, en Maze of Ith and a Tower in my board.
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Tash
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« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2005, 10:59:36 pm »

The deck is really strong and both matchups are favorable. Gobelins 65/35, Flame Fusillade is harder but like between 55/45 and 60/40.

I did some changes to the deck.
First : The tutoring. If tainted pact is really good with the deck as its constructed, i found that Plunge into darkness acts as a better impulse and provides a Creature sacrifice effect. I think its better in the deck. I actually play 2 tainted and 2 plunge and i really consider to change the 2 last Tainted Pact.

That's makes the 4 Innocent blood the 4 cards i actully wanna cut. The therapies allways worked well for me (In 10 hours of playtests, i just used Innocent blood on my gamekeeper only once). I was thinking of cutting them for more draw effects, perhaps the missing Night's Whisper, some Skeletal Scrying.

Second : If i cut the tainted pact, i think that the deck need at least one or 2 more lands. Perhaps also to consider in the Innocent Blood spots.

Hmm.. I'm kinda liking the Plunge into darkness idea. The Innocent Bloods are in there to stop a turn one Lackey, but what plunge into darkness would give me would be an instant speed sacrifice outlet. Could save me a lot of trouble with STP, and even though it costs one more mana, I see the instant speed and dual functions making it an asset.

I still love Tainted Pact however, and it's going to be hard to turn me away from it.

And I'm wanting to squeeze in 3 engeneered explosives in here. Hmm...  I have to get some more MWS-ing in.

and at 49 Cents:
Congrats at the 3rd place! Can we get some more info? Like matchups, how many people were there, any thing you would have liked to see differently.
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I think the most surreal thing is when a complete stranger you meet at a tournament hears your name and goes "Oh, yeah. I've read your stuff." It's kind of weird, yet feels good all at the same time.
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« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2005, 06:05:11 pm »

@49 Cent,

How were the Xantid Swarm for you?  It seems like they would get in the way of Gamekeeper's ability.


Don't cut Innocent Blood.  Think about all the ways it benifits you.  In this deck it has the benifit of almost never being dead.   Against a deck that doesn't need to attack you with creatures you need more than just the Cabal Therapies to sack your Gamekeeper.     

Plunge Into Darkness deserves testing, probally as a 2 of to complement Tainted PAct.

Sean
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Neonico
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« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2005, 01:13:50 am »

Don't cut Innocent Blood.  Think about all the ways it benifits you.  In this deck it has the benifit of almost never being dead.   Against a deck that doesn't need to attack you with creatures you need more than just the Cabal Therapies to sack your Gamekeeper. 

I consider cutting them if i play 4 Plunge into darkness. Not sure yet im still testing that. I'll tell you after the tournament but with 4 Cabal and 4 Plunge, the sacrifice problem is solved. And i say it again : in 10 hours playtest, i never used innocent blood except 2 times : 1 time for a turn one lackey, another for a gamekeeper ability. That's not enough for me to make it an auto include. But still need intensive gobs playtest to be sure. And plunge is instant speed, not innocent blood.

Xantid can be a good weapon against control but not, unfortunatly, against solidarity. Thats why i dont really love them.
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49 Cents
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« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2005, 03:47:25 am »

Innocent blood was nothing but amazing all day for me. I killed Elves, Forgotten Ancients, Specters and even a Morphling with it.

Xantid swarm is great. You attack, sac it for Therapy and do your thing.

My main problem with this deck was that I was manasrewed / Flooded a grand total of SEVEN times. I don't mind losing but losing a game because I have only 1 land after 11 draws and losing games because I draw 9 land is what really bugs me. I friggin hardcasted a Darksteel Colossus in one game! (and yeah, it got countered)..
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Tash
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« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2005, 03:23:06 pm »

Innocent blood was nothing but amazing all day for me. I killed Elves, Forgotten Ancients, Specters and even a Morphling with it.

Xantid swarm is great. You attack, sac it for Therapy and do your thing.

My main problem with this deck was that I was manasrewed / Flooded a grand total of SEVEN times. I don't mind losing but losing a game because I have only 1 land after 11 draws and losing games because I draw 9 land is what really bugs me. I friggin hardcasted a Darksteel Colossus in one game! (and yeah, it got countered)..

Mana screwed? Ouch. I can't say I've ran into that Issue, save one game. But I won that match anyways.  That's one of the nice things about TP in there, it can dig through land pockets, or find you a land in a pinch.

So you got beat by shitty luck? My sympathy, seriously. I've seen that happen to a lot of good decks.

Re Innocent Blood: I think the crack I was smoking that night has worn off. There's no way I'm dropping I-blood from this deck. It is this deck's only form of creature removal. AT ALL. I don't even want to see what would happen if I dropped it, my opponent's beats would only hurt more, and I would probably lose more matches due to more creature beats and more life loss. I'm considering dropping 2 nights whispers and 1 Tainted pact however for the Plunge into darkness.

Of course I still need to find room for the Engineered explosives. I'm thinking the sideboard is a great place.
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I think the most surreal thing is when a complete stranger you meet at a tournament hears your name and goes "Oh, yeah. I've read your stuff." It's kind of weird, yet feels good all at the same time.
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« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2005, 08:57:11 am »

Snuff out is by far better than innocent blood from my testing.
Its instant and can kill gamekeeper for free. IMO its the best creature removal for this deck when you have to deal with sword.
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cosineme
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« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2005, 10:51:14 am »

The two cards serve completely different purposes. Innocent blood is both a sac outlet, and a way to stop a turn 1 lackey. snuff out can do one or the either, not both, typically costs 4 life, which is huge and probably the same as that lackey you stopped would have done.

The thing about STP is that you aren't that afraid. If your keeper resolves, you have priority, and he can't STP anything without the keeper already being in the grave...for example, cabal therapy...and that sac tutor
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Neonico
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« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2005, 06:13:18 am »

LAckey isnt just 4 PV, whatever opponent drop with lackey, it allways will be more because of piledriver.

I solved the problem by naming pildy with my first cabal against gobelin. From there, you win enough tempo to combo on turn 5-6. The real issue is definatly pildy, not lackey because piledriver is like "Double every golbin damages" writen on it. I barely used innocent blood for both saccing keeper and killing lackey simply because lackey isnt as slow as keeper. Thats why the dual effect seems cool but totally useless as far as i tested (Actually, i did about 30 hours playtests against gobelins and never used Innocent blood to stop gobelin AND sac Gamekeeper).

I actually play 4 plunge into darkness, 4 night Whisper and 4 snuff out. Looks like a bit suicide but its also faster. And with 4 cabal therapies, i have 12 sac effect and a way to gain some HP.
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cosineme
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« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2005, 08:58:26 am »

LAckey isnt just 4 PV, whatever opponent drop with lackey, it allways will be more because of piledriver.

I solved the problem by naming pildy with my first cabal against gobelin. From there, you win enough tempo to combo on turn 5-6. The real issue is definatly pildy, not lackey because piledriver is like "Double every golbin damages" writen on it. I barely used innocent blood for both saccing keeper and killing lackey simply because lackey isnt as slow as keeper. Thats why the dual effect seems cool but totally useless as far as i tested (Actually, i did about 30 hours playtests against gobelins and never used Innocent blood to stop gobelin AND sac Gamekeeper).

I actually play 4 plunge into darkness, 4 night Whisper and 4 snuff out. Looks like a bit suicide but its also faster. And with 4 cabal therapies, i have 12 sac effect and a way to gain some HP.

Ok, honestly this really shows the lack of experience you have against goblins then. Yes, driver is insane when backed up by many other goblins. Driver is insane in the late game, can break open the mid game, and is a huge threat to blue mages. But typically driver is a win-more situation if you are playing your men correctly. And against other aggro, driver, like all other goblins, are just bears that trade since they will be blocked.

The most important threats in goblin decks are as follows
lackey
vial
warchief
ringleader
piledriver

Warchief is insane not because of the slight cost reduction, but because of the haste ability. Think about who you would rather lackey into play, chief? or driver, and unless you're already winning, you want warchief in play to give you more busted plays next turn. if you vial in a matron turn 4, (empty board) do you typically seek out driver? or something else...

that tells you that driver is a finisher rather than an immediate threat. why is this important? because unlike "the game" this version is running a combo kill, and by the time driver is threatening, he should already be dead.

or that's how i've been playing it.
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Just moved from Ann Arbor to Chicago. Even had a chance to play a bit with some of the famed Ann Arbor players.

Help me find a magic store in downtown Chicago

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Neonico
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« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2005, 11:54:19 am »

LAckey isnt just 4 PV, whatever opponent drop with lackey, it allways will be more because of piledriver.

I solved the problem by naming pildy with my first cabal against gobelin. From there, you win enough tempo to combo on turn 5-6. The real issue is definatly pildy, not lackey because piledriver is like "Double every golbin damages" writen on it. I barely used innocent blood for both saccing keeper and killing lackey simply because lackey isnt as slow as keeper. Thats why the dual effect seems cool but totally useless as far as i tested (Actually, i did about 30 hours playtests against gobelins and never used Innocent blood to stop gobelin AND sac Gamekeeper).

I actually play 4 plunge into darkness, 4 night Whisper and 4 snuff out. Looks like a bit suicide but its also faster. And with 4 cabal therapies, i have 12 sac effect and a way to gain some HP.

Ok, honestly this really shows the lack of experience you have against goblins then. Yes, driver is insane when backed up by many other goblins. Driver is insane in the late game, can break open the mid game, and is a huge threat to blue mages. But typically driver is a win-more situation if you are playing your men correctly. And against other aggro, driver, like all other goblins, are just bears that trade since they will be blocked.

The most important threats in goblin decks are as follows
lackey
vial
warchief
ringleader
piledriver

Warchief is insane not because of the slight cost reduction, but because of the haste ability. Think about who you would rather lackey into play, chief? or driver, and unless you're already winning, you want warchief in play to give you more busted plays next turn. if you vial in a matron turn 4, (empty board) do you typically seek out driver? or something else...

that tells you that driver is a finisher rather than an immediate threat. why is this important? because unlike "the game" this version is running a combo kill, and by the time driver is threatening, he should already be dead.

or that's how i've been playing it.

Im sorry but i played against alot of good french gobelin players, all very experienced with the deck and piledriver is really the key card against a turn 4-5 combo deck. I did 30 straight hours playtest against gobelin, (and the never last more than 20 mins so i did near to 100 games). Is it enough to show how i know how to play against gobelin ? I never said that i use snuff out on piledriver only, nor cabal ritual. I use it on the gobelin that buy me enough time to combo. Its often piledriver, and as you noticed it, warchief is the other gob i hate to see. But im sorry, turn 1 gob (and i dont even speack of lackey) turn 2 pildy turn 3 warchief, give me the configuration you prefer having on the board after turn 3. I really prefer having a 1cc gob + warchief  than 1 cc gob + Piledriver. Ho and this deck against gobelins is all about tempo and your main ressource is your HP. You have to play with it so warchief, played on turn 3 or 4 will give haste to other gobs the turn after, unless you allready in the mid/late game. I changed the deck considering the results of my playtests. Perhaps you got different problems, different solutions, but i tuned the deck as i love to play it and as i feel it to be efficient.

On a conclusion : Driver is a turn 4 finisher. When i play a turn 4 combo deck, its the thing i dont want, more than enything else.
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