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Author Topic: Final Fortune & Time Vault  (Read 1939 times)
Gabethebabe
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« on: October 13, 2005, 02:49:43 pm »

A dude I know has build a deck around this combo: Final Fortune on a stick and Time Vault Very Happy
The idea is to take an extra turn with FF, then cancel it with the Vault (which makes the deadly trigger disappear) and then take a "normal" extra turn with the vault.

If I read 300.6 correctly:

300.6. Some effects can give a player extra turns. They do this by adding the turns directly after the current turn. If a player gets multiple extra turns or if multiple players get extra turns during a single turn, the extra turns are added one at a time. The most recently created turn will be taken first.

To make the combo work, I´d say he first has to give a turn with the Vault, then take a turn with the Vault, then take a turn with FF. The extra turn of FF will come first, is the one that is skipped due to the Vault effect and thus you take an extra turn from the Vault.

Against me he played FF, then untapped vault and tapped Vault to take a turn. I think this is the incorrect order (if he would tap the Vault a turn after, that would be no problem of course).

Am I correct?
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Komatteru
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2005, 03:13:20 pm »

When you skip a turn with Time Vault, you skip the next turn, whenever that happens.  When you choose to activate the Vault, you acknowledge that the next turn you would take does not happen.  When you play Final Fortune (on your turn, cause it's an instant, and this matters), you take an additional turn.  At the end of the turn given by Final Fortune, you lose the game.  Ok, so Time Vault makes you skip the next turn you would take, and then Final Fortune grants you an additional turn.   If you untap the Vault, tap the Vault, and then play the Fortune, the order of turns goes
Finish current
Fortune
Vault

So the turn that is skipped would be the Final Fortune turn, which is desired.

If you untap the Vault, play the Fortune, then tap the Vault:
Finish Current
Vault
Fortune

So you end up taking the turn granted by Final Fortune, so you'd lose at the end of that turn.
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Godder
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2005, 06:15:39 pm »

It doesn't really matter which order you do it in, provided you remember to skip the correct turn when the time comes, since you can always use and untap Time Vault at the right time if necessary. I recommend the following, however, to avoid confusion:

Play Final Fortune - you get another turn after this one, and lose at the end of it.
Untap Time Vault - because you skip your next turn to do it, the Final Fortune turn is conveniently skipped, so you don't lose at the end of it.
Tap Time Vault - you get the next turn. Return to top, and repeat.

This has been confirmed on SCG Ask the Judge, incidentally.
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Gabethebabe
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2005, 01:27:58 am »

It doesn't really matter which order you do it in, provided you remember to skip the correct turn when the time comes, since you can always use and untap Time Vault at the right time if necessary. I recommend the following, however, to avoid confusion:

Play Final Fortune - you get another turn after this one, and lose at the end of it.
Untap Time Vault - because you skip your next turn to do it, the Final Fortune turn is conveniently skipped, so you don't lose at the end of it.
Tap Time Vault - you get the next turn. Return to top, and repeat.

This has been confirmed on SCG Ask the Judge, incidentally.
I couldn´t find an entry about this in the SCG virual judge, so feel free to link me to that page.

I can´t follow you I´m afraid. You say that it doesn´t matter in which order you take/skip you turns, but 300.6 does.
In your example: play FF, untap vault, tap vault I think you have canceled your own vault turn and will take the FF turn and lose.
Sure you can tap the Vault to prevent that, but in that case you will have to pass the turn to your opponent, with an untapped charged Vault that you actually can´t use until the next turn.
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epeeguy
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2005, 08:17:46 am »

It was this one (though it is not recent):

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8747.html

Quote
Q: I play Final Fortune, then activate the untap ability of Time Vault. Then I tap Time Vault to take an extra turn. Do I lose the game at the end of the extra turn? I think not, because the FF "lose the game" trigger is tied to the turn created by FF, and won't happen if that turn is skipped. This is true regardless of whether I tap the Time Vault.

A: You are correct; you will not lose the game at the end of the turn granted by Time Vault. Final Fortune's delayed triggered ability will only trigger at the end of the turn created by Final Fortune. If you never take that turn, then you won't lose the game due to this effect. It does not matter that you still end up taking an extra turn due to the Time Vault.

Chris (and Godder as well) made one mistake regarding this (read the forums for this), which was that the order the turns are added to the game does matter.  Since they are taken in reverse order (that is, the last one added is the first one taken), you have to ensure that you would take the Final Fortune turn before the Time Vault turn.  That way you can skip that turn with Time Vault and then create extra turns that you do not lose when they end.
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Gabethebabe
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2005, 08:58:27 am »

So I was right after all.

Thanks!
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CHA1N5
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2005, 09:07:11 am »

It's important to note that the functional definition of "skipping" something (a turn, in this case) is not carried out until you actually get to the [thing] you are meant to be skipping.  That is to say: when you untap a Time Vault it cannot know at that time what turn you will be skipping.  Godder, that is your mistake.  You are using the Vault as though it looks forward in time and extracts a turn to skip (the current "next turn").  It doesn't.  It waits until the next time you would get a turn and then skips that one.  That's why the order in which you put them on the stack is all-important.  Assuming you are doing all three actions in the same turn, the Tapping of Time Vault and the playing of Final Fortune must happen in that order for the Final Fortune turn to be on the top of the "turn stack" (is there a name for the zone in which turns accumulate?! Wink) when it comes time to skip one.


[Unrelated:  For the Love of Bob, please add "untap" to the TMD Dictionary! Mad]
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2005, 05:47:07 pm »

The only thing that's left to do now is to make a crappy combo aggro deck revolving around 4 final fortune, 4 time vault, and 4 isochron scepter, with mad tutoring and a pinger to win.

1) Don't bump old threads
2) Please don't spam the rules forum.  This really isn't the place for random off-topic-ery.

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« Last Edit: November 11, 2005, 06:05:32 pm by jpmeyer » Logged
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