Mono R Sligh: Dead in the water?

[Kieranwolf]

I was using the following decklist for quite a while, even winning 1st at my local tournament scene. However, after a certain point, the pile started doing terribly, especially when Oath decks starting showing up. The metagame around here is different each week, depending on who shows up, but I am wondering what I can do in order to stay competitive with my version of Sleigh.

It's a bit more explosive and risky than traditional Sleigh, but I've found that it wrecks the mirror match because of that on almost every occasion. However, goblins can be a problem sometimes, especially goon.

4 Pyrostatic Pilliar
3 Price of Progress
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Fireblast
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Fork
1 Black Vise
3 Incinerate
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Seal of Fire

3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
6 Mountain

Side:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 REB
1 Price of Progress
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Null Rod

I know that fetches are very damaging to me when I have ankh in play, but it's more of a compromise. I need deck-thinning in here in order to top-deck kill spells, and I usually must count on the fact that my opponent is nowhere near as aggro as I usually am. That's one reason why I drop Pilliar before Ankh, against just about every opponent.

As far as why I have so many burn spells: Well, I often find that I can race almost any deck as long as I aim straight for the dome, rather than killing weenies with my spells. The exceptions are decks that use Goblin Lackey, which needs to die immediately if I have no blocker, and otherwise only cards like an early Exalted Angel or CoP: Red have ruined this strategy.

Yes, I do realize that my matchup is pretty hopeless against Stax, but there are plenty of nights when Stax is absent from my metagame. It only started showing up when the proxy limit was set to 10, rather than 5, anyhow.

My explanation of cards:
Fireblast! Yes, it rocks the mirror match and any other aggro, and is awesome forked. It must get saved for last, though, because of the risk inherent in losing all of one's mountains. This deck rarely gets three mana, but can often get two mountains in play, so Fireblast often works quite well. On the other hand, what mirror match? I haven't faced Sleigh at the local tourney in almost a year.

Grim Lavamancer: I detest this card when I'm playing against a player who resolves it. It's great against opposing weenies, and has lots of fuel due to fetches, fanatic, and fireblasts, and even opposing removal. Basically a tad slow, but cheap and can beat if I'm still casting bolts etc.

Mogg Fanatic: It trades with weenies in combat and gets thrown directly at my opponent's dome in response. At best, its effect can deal the final point of damage. At worst, it becomes a one damage spell for R. Still, it's always been a good addition for me.

Seal of Fire: Mostly an anti-aggro card, meant to kill opposing creatures like Goblin Piledriver and Warchief, as well as Lackey. I have also used it to kill my own spirit tokens when facing Oath, and it always comes down all surrepticiously, innocent as an enchantment that only does two damage, but deadly as a finisher.

Fork: Great with Fireblast, and sometimes can do cool things like copy Demonic Tutor and Ancestral Recall. It's mostly good late-game to copy a PoP for the win, if my opponent tries to counter it.

WoF: Well, this is often a finisher when it resolves, especially with Fireblast and Mox/Lotus. Sure, my opponent will have a full hand after my turn, but late-game, most decks begin to run out of FoW, and aren't as likely to draw into them. Against other aggro decks, I will wait till my hand is gone before casting it, unless I only need a little bit of damage to win.

Ensnaring Bridge: Well, its mostly for boarding against Oath and Colossus, but it hasn't worked out that well. One shining moment saw me facing Oath, with no removal in sight for several turns, though, so it's always a consideration.

I have since altered the deck as follows:

-3 Incinerate
-1 Fork
-1 PoP
+2 Shrapnel Blast
+3 Pithing Needle

SB:
-4 E. Bridge
-3 Null Rod
+2 Rack and Ruin
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 PoP

I decided that I needed some tech against Welder and even CoP, and I hope that Pithing Needle will help out, it being the cheapest method to nuke abilites, if a bit reactive. I added the Shraps because of the added artifact volume, and to replace Incinerate, which just didn't seem economic enough to me.

Also, I finally found R+R, which I am considering adding more of. 3CC is a bit high, but it's still useful.

Ensnaring Bridge never resolved after the last time It became useful, and it was too high CC anyhow.


This makes my games against Oath harder, but I am hoping to race it the same way I race Colossus, with lots and lots of burn.

Anyway, the point of this post is to ask the question: Is Sligh dead? Are there cards that would help it out against the changing metagame? I heard somewhere that Sleigh decks are  using more utility than before, and don't necessarily want to drop their hands either.

I've found no new lists so far ol, so I'm willing to accept that Sleigh is dead and go on, but the deck has been quite rewarding and fun to play in the past, and there is truth to the axiom, "Sometimes Sligh just wins."

Anyone have any suggestions or lists to post, especially with regard to how to kill Oath of Druids and other problem enchantments? Is pithing needle optimal, rather than Null rod?

Help would be greatly appreciated.

[silvernail]

Well first things first: the deck si called Sligh after Paul Sligh whom i believe was the first shumuck to play the deck ( he isnt the guy that made it however that was some one else whose name i forget, go figure).

If you could post your average metagame we could better offer suggestions for you. One thing i can say is that running your own gempalm incinerators might be good, because you burn their goblins AND draw a card.

Genju of the spires can deal 6-12 damage sometimes .

Pyrite Spellbomb > seal of fire because its colorless and it can randomly draw cards if needed and also sacrifices to shrapnel blasts.

A card often used vs oath decks is maze of ith. Also depending on if they arent running pro red win conditions (any of the angels) you might consider threaten or grab the reins.

Goblin Welders + gorilla shaman can help vs staxas you can kill a mox, weld a bigger artifact for the mox and kill the mox again to effectivly kill any artifact they have.

[islanderboi10]

Try reading that Mountains Win Again thread here. I think that deck has been doing pretty well, and it looks like a controllish sligh style with a splash. Maybe you should go check that out.

[Kieranwolf]

@Silvernail

So it is. Touche.

My metagame is...well, sort of unpredictable at times.

0-2 Drain 'slaver
0-3 Oath
1 Goblin
0-1 U/G Madness
0-2 Gifts
0-1 Two Land Belcher
0-2 FoodChain
0-3 Stax
1 Mountains Win Again

Some show up often, like Stax and Oath, others are only occasional. I unfortunately have the worst time against those two, but Oath has lost at least one round to token/shaman beats so far.

Add to that the fact that I haven't been able to make it to the event every week for a long time, and I'm not sure who's going to come in with a new deck when I do attend.

As far as your suggestions go...I like Spellbomb and I will see about making room for it in the MB. It does require more mana than most of my spells, though, and for that reason I am a little dubious about Genju. FYI, if I have four lands in play or more, I'm usually losing, because that's two kill spells that I needed to draw, and didn't. I consider a mulligan if I have three or more mana sources in my opening hand, and not enough business spells. I suppose I would have to include more lands in the MD for Genju, but to me, though it's lots better than Ball Lightning, it still would require deck alteration.

Incinerator requires a two-mana investment, which is usually fine, but since I only run four goblins, it probably wouldn't be reliable unless I added more of the green guys.

Maze of Ith would indeed be good, and I think it would come in for spells like Seal in game 2. I'm fairly certain it's slightly more destroyable than an artifact, but that depends on whether or not OAth is running wastelands.

Welders are certainly playable, but may not be as useful as say, Vandal. I may playtest it, but my instincts say that it wouldn't save me post-tinker, especially if facing down a Trike or Titan.

@Islandboi10

Yes, I've seen it, and have actually faced it in the local tourney. It does well against some decks, but doesn't have the best matchup against some others.

I don't feel the need to go into too much detail, but that list just plays different from Sligh. It has 6-7 more mana sources, and seems to want a somewhat slower game. On the plus side, splashing white gives it a chance against Oath, especially with MB REBs and STP. However, it seems to still do badly against Stax, just around 2x better than Sleigh.

Sleigh's game plan is to kill on turns two, three, or four, with just two lands. I've won games many times, drawing only one mountain/red source.

So, Maze would give me a chance against Oath games 2-3, though it would be a feat for me to win in three games. Does anyone feel strongly that a white splash could actually facilitate wins against Stax? I've found that if Stax draws well, the match is over by turn 1 or two for me. I'd love to have a chance against it with R, or even W/R, but would most likely just pick up a different deck, like Madness, if I knew in advance that I would be facing Stax on any given day.

EDIT: Oh, and as far as Threaten/GtR: Too mana-intensive, really, though Threaten would be good against Tinker -> Colossus. It would be castable against Spirit, but what else? Hydra would ping in response, and Akroma would just laugh.

[Joblin Velder]

Whit gives you access to Serenity and Sacred Ground, both silver bullets against Stax.

It's good to see you have more time to play cards, Adam. Maybe I'll head up to BG one of these days for the Saturday tourney.

[Kieranwolf]

Hmm...it's around twice a month that I get a saturday off, dude, but I'd be interested in playing you one of these days again. You just reminded me that Sligh's matchup against Madness is probably bad, as well. Email me sometime, ok?

Do you think I could get away with including Plateau to replace some mountains, and siding in some copies of those two?

The SB would probably look like this:

4 REB
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Serenity
2 R&R
3 Sacred Ground

Hmm...a little too varied? I guess I've gotten weak, depending on blue card-drawing spells to draw my sided-in cards lately, and C. Wish. Sligh is all about topdeck, because it often drops its hand in a minimum of three turns.

So, let's see...REB and Crypt to side in against Drain decks and Y. Will. Serenity, R&R, Sacred ground against Stax. Isn't there more I should worry about? Incidentally, does Serenity improve my matchup against Oath more than a fraction?

I still have Madness to worry about, though I still oftentimes end up racing it, at least till Arrogant Wurm comes out. Needle may help if resolved after Mongrel/Meba drops, though.

Pithing needle seems like a good play, then. It buys time against Two-land Belcher and FCG, and possibly holds back the horror that is Welder/Slaver for a while.

However, Oath still needs some attention, methinks, especially since it's become possibly more popular than Stax lately. What could I take out for STP?

EDIT: Yes, I feel the pull of white, now, but it's still theoretical, and I am mostly just worried about Oath and workshop decks. STP, Serenity, Sacred Ground are the only S's I need, methinks, and if I can have them without compromising my aggrotasticness, all the better. Sssligh...

[Joblin Velder]

I think R&R and Sacred Ground are more than enough for the stax match. I think removing the Serenities gives you room for the STPs.

Re: Madness - I wouldn't worry. Only shitty players like me bother anymore

[Kieranwolf]

Ok...so, let's see here. Updated, tentative list.


4 Pyrostatic Pilliar
2 Price of Progress
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Fireblast
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Fork
2 Shrapnel Blast
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Seal of Fire
1 Black Vise
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
3 Pithing Needle

3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
3 Plateau
3 Mountain

Side:
4 REB
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 STP
2 R&R
3 Sacred Ground

Yesh. So, I seem to need lots of playtests, now. My MD should still take care of all but the fastest of decks first game, and the SB at least improves my chances of taking on my worst matchups some. Well-rounded Sligh?

I also, with some guidance, avoided blowing up my Ankhs/Vise/Spellbombs with my own Serenities.

w00t

And yeah, I'll probably never seen Madness anymore...hey, wait! You're only trying to lull me into a false sense of security! Must board the secret tech...RoP: Purple!

*evil laughter*

[Joblin Velder]

I want those fetches to go back into your binder, Adam. I'd even give you $2.00 to do it. You're going to hurt yourself a lot...

[Kieranwolf]

Shaddap, dude. How else am I to get white mana? All the jocks will kick my ass if I add plains...

No pain, no gain.

Thinning is pimp.

Fetching Plateau and dropping SG is the pwn.

Crap...STP targeting Colossus? I almost want it to get countered.

 

[Joblin Velder]

I think the Ankhs can just go. They're nice, but unless dropped really, really early, they're easy to play around. I think I'm one of the few who runs 6-8 fetches regularly due to my shitty manabase problems. Why not replace them with Pups, Cadets or Incinerates?

After suggesting white, I totally remembered some gems from my burninator days. If you want to stay mono red (thus dropping the fetches and making ankh okay again), Goblin Bombardment deals with Oath nicely. Losing Sacred Ground kind of stinks, but I remember Rack and Ruin usally being enough.

[Kieranwolf]

Pups I would consider...it's all about what hurts more in a really small number of turns.


Whaaat?


Bombardment seems tasty! The pain, and humiliation, and swinging, then popping, and burn spells galore. It would be all about dropping GB on my turn, after Oath resolves. It turns Orchard into City of Brass, and I love City of Brass!

However, STP was mostly needed against Oath. STP hitting Colossus would set me back enough turns to give my opponent the game, so I'd rather cut them.

I am going to do lots of playtesting before I drop Ankh and/or Fetch, as they have, believe it or not, never lost me a game. The only thing that sucked was that time when I had two Pilliars out...

So...

-3 STP
+3 Goblin Bombardment

I could go -3 Sacred Ground, +2 R&R, and change Shaman to Vandal, though. And add... a Sulfuric Vortex, or something. Remember that time I won the tournament by forking a Demonic Tutor, then playing Vortex against that Severance deck? His Zuran Orb got pwnd!

[Nastaboi]

StP is kinda bad against Oath, unless you are running heavy on REBs. Swich to Bombardment seems right.

While Fork will win you games sometimes, it is still too random and usually pretty crappy. Same goes for the Wheel. You don't want randomness, you'll want consistency. And the best spell for that is Magma Jet, which gives you card selection AND burns things. I suggest you to cut Fork, Wheel and two Seals for this gem. They will help you to find the right hate or answers.

As for workshop matchup, I would maindeck Goblin Vandals, because resolving one usually says "I win". The biggest threat from their side is Chalice of the Void, if they get two down it is game over for you. Suggest upping R&R count, just because it is 3cc and evades Chalice for 1 and 2.

[Kieranwolf]

I was thinking about Vandals in the SB, at the very least, and maybe two in the MB just because I probably need both them and Shaman anyhow. Either way, I will want to include four vandals in the list.

R&R, though, is sort of a quandry. It's 3CC, which kind of hurts. I suppose I'd be playing the deck differently against Stax, anyway (if at all). Plus, the chalice angle has kind of won me over. Killing Chalice while Stax is winding up for the kill may save my ass, especially if I have three mana and a full hand. It may even save me after an early Trinisphere.

So...two Vandals in the MD, two in the SB. Cutting STP is good, because I have no use for it with Bombardment in the SB for Oath.

Pyrite has been ok, but has often just sat there while I cast creatures and bolts, winning without devoting mana to it. Let's keep that for now, too.

Taking out two seals, I can put in two Vandals, keeping the mana curve the same.

For Jet...well, I'd need four of them. I will probably end up playtesting the following changes, then.

MD
-1 Fork
-1 WoF
-2 Ankh
+4 Magma Jet
-2 Seal of Fire
+2 Vandals

SB:
-3 SG
+2 Vandals
+1 R&R

I actually have two more kill spells for opposing weenies than before, now, while the mana curve is now even lower in the MD.

Four Vandals and three R&R will have to try and hold off Stax for now. Oath will have to deal with Bombardment. I will assassinate any U/G Madness players and burn any Tinker cards pre-tournament. That should cover my worst matchups...

[Joblin Velder]

If tinker or fatties in general are giving you problems, I used to use Fractured Loyalty. Give it a shot.

[Kieranwolf]

Yes, Loyalty looks like about the best way for red to get around colossus et al., short of a splash. That could be added to the SB for a meta with lots and lots of Tinker/Colossus/Titan, I suppose. Colossus on turn three is often too late, though, and Titan can die to a Vandal, if I'm lucky.

The idea of a blue deck dying while trying to cast/casting a bounce spell on their own colossus is just...beautiful.

[Joblin Velder]

Wel, as far as titan goes, as long as the vandal is untapped, he cannot attack you. One red mana seems like a fair price to pay for hold off a 7/10.

[Kieranwolf]

That's thinking like a Sligh player!

Now, I think that this decklist is just about optimal. I may just run it today.

[Kieranwolf]

There's still something missing, methinks. I ran this deck today, at a ten-person tourney, and went 2 and 2.

For those not familiar with the 3 Tier system for tournaments? It goes two rounds normally, then splits into three sections, with win/loss percentage deciding.

2-0 players go to the first tier
1-1 go to tier two
0-2 go to third

Only the winners in each tier recieve a prize, making this format a bit more friendly to new players.

First round: Played against a little kid with a green/blue aggro deck. Easy win. These don't happen often, trust me. I mean...he was using freakin walls in his deck, and he kept a no-land hand the first game, seeing nothing for the four turns it took him to die.

Second: Control Slaver. I lost 2-0 - just not enough hate, and my opponent got to use his LoA over and over, with no wastelands in sight on my end. Ow. I got bashed with Colossus both times.

I entered Tier 2 here, with five others. to play against. This means that three more rounds were needed to determine the prize winner.

Third: Sex.dec - I creamed it. This is the sort of deck that just draws and draws, and casts Time walk with no apparent solutions in sight versus me. I resolved Lotus/ Pillar/Vandal/Shaman first turn one time, and killed with weenies/bolts the other game.

Fourth: The semifinal round for tier 2 saw me facing Goblins. Goon and strip mine pwnd me thoroughly, both of which were dropped turns 2 and three, both games. I never drew the lands I needed to race it, even losing with an empty board the second game.

It looks like I am indeed having problems with fatties here. I'm considering Fractured Loyalty, especially since I didn't see Oath at all today (to replace Bombardment). Oh...here were the decks in the tourney.

2 Control Slaver
1 Stax
1 Goblin
1 Sligh (Me)
1 Kiddie U/G 'aggro'
1 Kiddie Sengir/Dragon
1 Sui Black
1 Sex.dec
1 U/W/G ...something? Actually, I never saw this guy's win condition.

I'm thinking about adding more mana sources. I drew Ankh only once, and am considering just making room for four mountains, or even Mishra's Factories. I need bigger creatures, certainly. And, well...the utter lack of card draw started becoming painful against CS. I saw so few of my cards. Needle only showed up the turn before a loss, too.

I have been tainted by the evil of blue...

[Kieranwolf]

A fitting ending: I stopped playing Sligh, because I know that my skills are much better if put to the test with some kind of Blue deck. I'm building Gifts...

Besides, my deck cases smelled really bad. Sligh is going into storage, until it becomes awesome again...

[bebe]

I don't think red is dead at all. It's biggest problem is Oath. I think we need to port Vial Goblins over from Legacy with the white splash. The deck can kill in three or four turns. If we can waste a few early lands we actually have a game against Gifts and Oath once we sidebaord ... Just a tentative list

4x Aether Vial

4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
3x Mogg Fanatic
3x Skirk Prospector
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Siege Gang Commander
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Genju of the Spires 
1x Wheel of Fortune

1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Seal of Cleansing

Mana Vault
Sol ring
Mox Ruby
Chrome Mox
4x Wasteland
1x Strip mine
3x Mountain
2x Plateau
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills

SB
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Serenity
4x Red Elemental Blast
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
2x Tormod's Crypt

This should afford a reasonably fast threat base without resorting to many tricks. I think aggressive mulligans can result in very explosive hands. While it certainly is not tier one it does have game. .

[Kieranwolf]

Goblins, meh.

I guess I'm still working on my own list, with the latest change having been:

-4 fireblast
+2 mountain
+2 Price of Progress

I'm heading toward 20 mana sources, and well, it's probably never going to be as good as goblins, especially FCG. However, the Pyros main can destroy many goblin builds. Is vial a good way to dodge that, and counterspells?

[bebe]

Vial dodges a lot of problems. Once in play your creatures cannot be countered it acts as Lackies 5-8. I was a great fan of FCG but you need white in your build to have any chance against Oath and Serenties hose Stax builds. Control is not as popular as it once was but FoWs and Drains are around so it does help get Lackies into play fast. As nice as it is to combo off with FCG, vial is a half turn to turn slower in testing. The trick of course is never to overload your threats.

[Kieranwolf]

Winning by not playing spells is totally tasty. I'll consider Vial, but I tend to think that Goblins are strong enough without it, even non-FCG.

Serenity isn't my favorite thing. It kills vials, doesn't it? In my build, it would kill Ankh as well. I'd rather use Echoing Ruin/Rack and Ruin, AKA the Ruin twins.

[Zomar]

Echoing Ruin

ewww sorcery.

rack and ruin and goblin vandal should be enough vs artifacts.

[49 Cents]

We tested a Metagame Sligh list once.. It looked like this:

4 Rod
4 Chain
4 Bolt
3 Fireblast
4 PoP
4 Grim
4 Fanatic
4 Pup
3 Blood Moon
3 ReB
3 Vandal
6 fetch
5 Strips
10 Mountain

It actually worked very well.. But it DIED to Chalice if it hadn't got a Vandal dropped yet.. Maindeck Moons were friggin awesome, Especially with all those Gifts decks running only 2 basics or Staxx with 0. I was thinking about playing Chalices over Rods because they drop a turn earlier and stop tinker (Colossus spells Doom too)..

The list is a bit old. Try it if you like.

[bebe]

Serenity is brought in for Vials. Against Stax Vials are not as necessary as a meta hoser like serenity. I actually thought about seals instead but serenity is just better. Traditional Ankh Sligh is just not feasible now. FCG could still win in the hands of a good player but Oath is just to damn scary for it and it has too few answers for Tinker/Oath as well ( your artifact removal will be countered ).
I think red's biggest problem is the fact that is a turn too slow for most of the quick decks out there.  With a fundamental turn of two or three the clock is not fast enough. I have yet to be beaten by FCG or Sligh at a tournament in the last year and a half ( I can say the same about sui black). We need to look for ways to specificlly address these problems are accept the fact the archtype is dead. "Mountains Win Again" did just that but the deck no longer resembles Sligh. I think we ned to look at splashes.
We have a number of good choices in every color but the definitive build is still not set. I would rather play an "Electric Eel" deck then Sligh as it currently stands.

[Fubar]

How about adding a sole barbarian ring?

[Kieranwolf]

The Mountains Win Again is actually quite like what Sligh originally was, except that it started using MB answers to things other than opposing blockers.

Red Sligh was aggro, and now it basically has to be aggro/control in order to flourish. Since there are almost no red cards that contribute to card advantage or tutoring, its topdeck is its solution to problems. Goblins at least have acceleration and a cycle card, while non-goblin red has uhh...browbeat?

Seriously, after seeing what Gifts (which is not just an archetype I'm obsessed with—it's simply the deck to beat right now) can and will do every game, I now see that Sligh has maybe two (three, if lucky) turns to reach critical mass before Gifts wins the game. The only answers to cards like TINKER are non-red. Extract, Shadow of Doubt, Rootwater Thief, Edict even Cranial Extraction all at least give you a chance if you're an aggro deck.

If Sligh found an answer to tinker, I'd consider making up a new list.

[Joblin Velder]

Fractured Loyalty is a red answer.