GrimLong

[goober]

I know this isn't a new idea, but I want to talk about it some here.  I have always been a huge Long and variant fan, so I want to get this one moving.  I left Magic for about a year, so I might be missing something important about the meta, but here is the version I have so far.

Lands
    4 City of Brass
    4 Gemstone Mine
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Forbidden Orchard
    1 Tolarian Academy

Fast Manas
    7 SoLoMoxen
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Dark Ritual
    2 Elvish Spirit Guide

Draw7s/Broken
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Mind's Desire
    1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1 Necropotence
    1 Timetwister
    1 Wheel of Fortune
    1 Tinker
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Windfall

Tutors
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    4 Grim Tutor
    1 Crop Rotation

Cheap Draw
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk (Most expensive cantrip in the format)

Protection
    4 Duress
    2 Defense Grid
    1 Hurkyl's Recall

I almost forgot
    2 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard (random for now)
    1 Darksteel Colossus
    3 Hurkyl's Recall
    2 Elvish Spirit Guide
    2 Oxidize
    1 Brain Freeze
    4 Xanthid Swarm
    2 Defense Grid

Nothing in here is revolutionary or really needs explaining, but what the hell.  2 Tendrils are just for a little protection in case something happens to one of them.  Not being able to wish for a SB Tendrils makes it a little dangerous to only run 1.  Losing to turn 1 Duress+Crypt is just annoying.  That is also why I cut the Consultation, you can scoop to it far too often for my liking.  The Defense Grids are better to find when you are in the middle of going off, and want protection for after the next draw7.  Giving your opponent an extra turn to go crazy themselves and mess with your hand or to throw out Chalice, Sphere, Trini, or some other form of hate makes the slightly better protection, and 1 less mana not worth it.  I still have them in the side because I am not too sure what to do with it now that the toolbox aspect is gone.  Long varients never could bring in too many cards, since it is so tight.  Oxidize is for Null Rod packing decks, Hurkyl's Recall is for artifact based ones.  Xanthid is worthwhile to bring in against decks in which giving them the extra turn isn't as big a problem.  The extra ESGs are great to help you beat out spheres to getting up the needed Hurkyl's mana.

I think that this is far better than Death Long for a few reasons, and makes it obsolete.  The main one is being able to run maindeck Will.  I think that was the greatest (only?) strength of Draw7 a while ago.  You can just randomly draw it in a draw 7 and that extra 3 mana is amazing.  Mystical and Vamping for it eot are strong too.  The extra maindeck tutor power also lets you get Lotus, Draw7, or Desire whenever it would be helpful, which is more often than I origonally expected.  Also, the ability to replay the tutors after a Will makes going off much easier when you just need to dump mana, tutor->Will, replay mana tutor->GG.  The life cost difference can actually matter, so I might as well mention it.  It doesn't come up in too many games, but every once and a while it helps.  The only disadvantage is the lack of being able to run a toolbox sideboard, but that was never too amazing, especially when compared to all of the bonuses the Tutors bring.  One idea I tossed around before rejecting was running a single maindeck Burning Wish, tossing Windfall to the side, and making the SB more of a toolbox.  The Grims Tutors let you grab it, making only running 1 Wish with a toolbox not a horrible idea.  I just found that Golden Wish generally isn't worth it, even when getting Balance.  I think this idea could use some more thought, because it might still be worthwhile, I am not too sure.

[Koeka]

you have the basics for the deck, but theres an lot of work to be done, i personally dislike the grids and play the xantids main,
i would cut 2 grid 1 esg, 1 gemstone mine, 1 time walk(sucks and is irrelevant, decreases the change for and good card in the combo process) and 1 windfall, and add 1 colossus main, 1 orchard more and 3 xantids

for the side, well i think:2 reb, 2 hurkylls recall, 4 cabal ritual(anti chalice tech according to some people) 1 xantid swarm, 2 rack and ruin, 3 energy flux, and 1 random meta slot

GL

[Luiggi]

I agree with running XSwarms over Defense Grid in the maindeck. Defense Grid just makes it harder for them to stop us, but a resolved Swarm generally makes it impossible for them to stop us.

Also, even though YWill is now in the maindeck, don't you think Burning Wish is worth having? It still gives us access to some nice SB cards, like another Draw-7, some artifact hate, etc. Just a thought.

Luiggi

[And11]

I'd replace 1x ToA with Burning Wish (Spiral, Tendrils and Balance in th board) and reconsider the Grids (Xantid's are nice) and manabase (+1 land). I can't wait for this deck to be legal and I'm having high expectations towards its future accomplishments. Only problem is that I'm playing in a non-proxie environment and those Tutors are darn hard to get. Actually, I'm playing Gamble instead, but I won't even think about Chalice set @ 1.

If you decide to add Colossus, Time Walk cannot be cut. I still wouldn't cut it because it replaces itself, lets you get an extra mana source on the table AND does random Necro+Walk stuff once in a while, which is kind of awesome.

Why the Underground Sea? I think a 5c land would be superior, since situations will occur, where you're holding Wheel, Crop or whatever and you'll hate yourself for life because of it.

Good Luck,
/Andreas of Scandinavia.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

You REALLY ought to try imperial seal. It's another tutor that grabs lotus. The rest of the deck looks pretty standard. I'd personally run defense frid because it stacks and also powers academy. The fact that it gets hit by rack and ruin is pretty moot because they'll need to do it on their turn, meaning they'll be tapped out.

-Bob

[Disburden]

You REALLY ought to try imperial seal. It's another tutor that grabs lotus. The rest of the deck looks pretty standard. I'd personally run defense frid because it stacks and also powers academy. The fact that it gets hit by rack and ruin is pretty moot because they'll need to do it on their turn, meaning they'll be tapped out.

-Bob

Imperial Seal should be just an auto-inclusion.

[goober]

You REALLY ought to try imperial seal.

Yes I should. I just forgot about it.

-1 Windfall
+1 Imperial Seal

One of the problems with the 1 Burning Wish and a toolbox side is that when you actually need to access the stuff in the toolbox, Tutor->Wish->Answer is way too costly/slow.  Either you are under Trini/Sphere of Resistance and so that will cost too much while fighting though probable Tangle Wires/Smokestacks.  Also, in that case why not Tutor->Hurkyl's and be ready 1 turn sooner, for 2 less mana.  If you are getting Balance, you need to spend 2 or 3 turns playing these spells, which gives them ample time to find a counter or to beat you with creatures.  If you are trying to Wrath with Balance, then you should just win instead, which you often could do if you could spend 3BBWR and had a tutor.

I am also thinking about Chain of Vapor, possibly taking out Walk (to the SB, to be brought in with Colossus) or Crop Rot.  Either way, I am doing.

+2 Chain of Vapor (SB)
-1 Oxidize (SB)
-1 Brain Freeze (SB)

Off topic: could you add "mana" to the dictionary?

[Necrologia]

The day after the Portal Announcement, I started working on a Portal list. The differences between our builds are:

-1 Tendrils
+1 Burning Wish

This just makes sense. You'd rather see Wish in your opening hand as it can turn into a business spell. Tendrils is plain ol' vanilla dead.

-2 Defense Grid
+2 Xantid

I used to love Grid, but after Waterbury this last weekend I can confirm that Xantids are the way to go. At least twice I dropped a Xantid, only to have my opponent respond by dropping 2-3 accelerants on his turn. Xantid wins the game, whereas Grid only makes a good attempt at it. Grid used to be good, but once control decks started packing Mana Crypt and Lotus Petal it lost it's luster.

-1 ESG
+1 Chrome Mox

Chrome Mox adds to storm. It's also another source of black mana or blue mana, which is extremely important when going off. Yes, yes, any argument that starts with "good when going off" is flawed, but the possibility of stalling with this deck is quite real. Adding an additional source of blue or black mana post draw7 helps alleviate the hands with multiple rituals but no black source, or Recall with only BB floating. It also gives another way to Brainstorm and Duress turn 1, one of my favorite (non-turn 1 win) openings.

-1 Windfall
+1 Mox Diamond

This is my jankiest change. I run Mox Diamond for the same reason I run Chrome Mox, with the exception that it's worse in the opener. Windfall hadn't really been up to snuff, but I've found it's even worse in the Sideboard where I'd had it for a while.

My SB is as follows:

1 Tendrils
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Time Spiral
5 Random Wish targets (Balance, Eye of Nowhere, etc)
1 Imperial Seal

The SB Imperial Seal has been very good to me. The problem I'd always had with Burning Wish, was that early game it wasn't as useful as I wanted it to be. Windfall was useless as virtually every deck drops down to 4 or 5 cards turn 1, and it's even worse when your opponent knows it's coming. Imperial Seal, however, is very nice. I suppose if I ever managed to work it maindeck this could turn into Personal Tutor, as an equally cheap way to fetch business.

The problems I've had with my build are that Imperial Seal is still SB, and at some point Demonic Consultation seems to have gotten cut. In my opinion Demonic Consultation is the better card, but the only slots I can possibly see either card fitting is over the last ESG, or Time Walk. I'd rather not cut into the mana base anymore than is necessary, and Walk is helpful when setting up. Windfall also seems like it might deserve a place somewhere, but I can't really find one.

The other thing I've been thinking about recently, is whether building from the old Long skeleton is really the best way to go about a Grim Combo deck. With so many more tutors, It might be worth looking into an actual combo deck. You know, one where you play a combination of cards (Donate/Illusions, Flame/Vault) for the win, other than Moxen + Tendrils. Belcher might also be a better way to go, but I've got precious little experience in that direction.

Then again, combo pieces tend to be dead until you're just about to win, where storm's combo pieces are always good other than the single MD Tendrils. *Shrug* Just trying to avoid building with blinders on is all.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The ESGs have a huge advantage over Chrome Mox in that they aren't affected by Chalice for 0, Sphere of Resistance, or 3sphere.  In this environment, the Chalice is very relevent which may defeat the additional storm count and U/B mana.

I definitely agree with Burning Wish needing to be maindecked.

[Necrologia]

The ESGs have a huge advantage over Chrome Mox in that they aren't affected by Chalice for 0, Sphere of Resistance, or 3sphere.  In this environment, the Chalice is very relevent which may defeat the additional storm count and U/B mana.

Outside of hands with Academy + Moxen as the only mana sources, Chalice for 0 rarely bothers me. Even with Sphere out I'd still rather have the Chrome, as it'll give me consistent mana for cranking out threats. Under 3sphere though, I'll admit that ESG is better, but thankfully 3sphere is restricted now.

Mox Diamond could easily be cut for another ESG if you want, but Chrome needs to stay. It's actually close to par with the original Moxen thanks to it's color fixing, and obviously we aren't cutting Pearl to deal with Chalice.

[Necrologia]

I apologize for the double post. If you haven't been reading the Chicago Update thread, Smmenen top 8'd with Grim Long at SCG Chicago. Here's the list he used:

1 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Lotus
1 LED
4 Dark Ritual
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
2 Elvish Spirit Guides

2 Cabal Rituals

4 Brainstorm (duh)
4 Duress (duh)

1 Necro
1 Desire
1 Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

1 Jar
1 Tinker
1 Wheel
1 Windfall
1 Twister

1 Hurkyl's
1 Xantid Swarm

1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor

3 Grim Tutor
1 Regrowth

1 Tendrils

SB:
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Balance
1 Abeyance
1 Darksteel Colossus
I don't remember the rest of my board.

Lots of interesting things here. First off, it's clear he metagamed expecting lots of shops as is usual in the Midwest. MD ESG and Cabal Rituals instead of the pseudo-moxen, and more ESGs in the board. This is obviously nice in a shop heavy area, but somewhere like Waterbury I'd rather have more Swarms and moxen, rather than ESGs main.

Next up is the single win condition, due to the loss of Burning Wish. This is something I'm not so comfortable with. Running a single win can make it hard to find on occasion, but more than anything else I really like the versatility of the Wish itself. There was a game at Waterbury I won with Wish->Regrowth, and in retrospect another where it would have been the correct play. Does that mean Regrowth is then worth a MD slot over Wish? I'm not sure. It's much worse in the opening hand, where Wish can at least become Personal Tutor or something.

The final unorthodox choice is running only 3 Grim Tutors, yet 2 Cabal Rituals to support them. I've loved seeing Grim Tutor almost everytime I drew it, but I will acknowledge that holding 2 and Brainstorming into a 3rd results in a clogged hand. What I'm not so keen on are the 2 Cabal Rituals. I'm just guessing here, but I'd image these were run to help against Chalice. Running acceleration at 2cc gives yet more outs against Shop decks. They're also extra loti to fetch once you have Threshold, but I've rarely been in a situation where I wished I had even more fast mana. If anything I tend to get flooded, seeing as how the deck runs around 30 mana sources anyway. Smmenen, I'm not sure if you're watching this thread, but I'm interested in whether you'd consider running the Cabal Rituals by defualt, or only if you were expecting lots of Chalices/Monkies. More rituals are great, but I'd almost rather have the Moxen (at least Chrome) for a more stable mana base.

I like the SB ESG plan, seeing as how Long only ever uses 5 or so SB slots regularly anyway, and I'll certainly look at fitting Regrowth MD, but I'm still a fan of Burning Wish in here. So, opinions?

[Smmenen]

Yes, I have alot to say.  Just give me some time to articulate it.  I'll probably just summarize everything I have to say in a brief article

[Smmenen]

ugh.  Writing this article has been much more difficult than I anticipated.

The changes, briefly, are simple:

The change from Wishes to tutors makes Ancestral more central to the deck.  Therefore, Regrowth is a more powerful card.

Second, I hated drawing a Tendrils I did not need.

Third, Cabal Ritual was added to help the deck after it resolved a Draw7 to avoid having to pass the turn.  That's it. 

What would you be interested in reading about in the article?

[TerrorHawk]

What would you be interested in reading about in the article?

1. How did you like Imperial Seal?  In my limited testing, I haven't really liked it.

2. Have you considered Burning/Death Wish as a one of to grab answers to problem cards like Arcane Lab, and also to grab another Tendrils should it be removed, or if you somehow miscalculated and lost your one copy on a Will turn that didn't finish off the opponent?

3.  How many Grim Tutors do you feel are needed?  Having access to them in the early game is obviously important, but four seems to flood your hand.  As you ran three at Chicago I'm guessing you felt that is right, but would like to hear how you settled on that.

4.  Cabal Ritual has been at times amazing, and others a bit lackluster.  I've currently switched one for the Chrome Mox in the board.  What are your opinions on this?

5.  Umm.. I guess If you could share your sideboard strategies that would be awesome.

Congrats on your placing with the deck, it looks like a blast to play.

~TH

[Imsomniac101]

ugh. Writing this article has been much more difficult than I anticipated.

What would you be interested in reading about in the article?

How does this deck differ to Deathlong. The way its played. What you do if one of your Win conditions gets removed. Is the deck better without the extended deck ( sideboard).

Also if you could devote space to a "how you beat the hate" section it would be nice. Something about how you beat card combinations of Chalice, Duress etc. IMO you should devote a lot of space to this section as most players are baffled as to how you would do well with a combo deck.

[Necrologia]

I'd definitely enjoy seeing a section on Sideboarding as it's one of the least written about topics. Even if you only want to side in 3 cards it can be rough deciding what to cut in any given match up.

The second least discussed topic is mulliganing. I tend to mulligan extremely aggressively with combo, as thanks to draw7s it's entirely possible to win turn 1 off a 4 card hand. Just keeping hands with bombs + mana isn't necessarily enough. Do you keep the lotus, Wheel, 4x land hand against a deck you know runs FoW?

Playing around hate is another topic I wouldn't mind seeing, but it's really not that complicated. Always play around Duress with Brainstorm, and tutor for your bounce against most anything else.

I'm interested that you consider Ancestral to be more important to the deck now. Do you generally use it as a draw spell or simply bait that's great to Will back? I tend to use the Portal tutors to set up a Desire or to protect a draw 7 for the win. Fetching Recall has always seemed a bit weak to me, as I'd rather spend a little more to see twice as many cards, or for that matter simply Will.

[Disburden]

ugh. Writing this article has been much more difficult than I anticipated.

What would you be interested in reading about in the article?

How does this deck differ to Deathlong. The way its played. What you do if one of your Win conditions gets removed. Is the deck better without the extended deck ( sideboard).

Also if you could devote space to a "how you beat the hate" section it would be nice. Something about how you beat card combinations of Chalice, Duress etc. IMO you should devote a lot of space to this section as most players are baffled as to how you would do well with a combo deck.

I think these suggestions are great for a starting point. What I would really like to see is matchup analysis against the top decks in the format such as:

Stax
Gifts
Slaver

Then move on from there with sbing for those matchups and continue with what Sb slots do you recommend changing after SCG.
Also what do you feel about the singleton Xantid slot and would it become something better and more useful in the future.

Definitely the Mulligan.

I like these deck a lot more than Deathlong when I played around with it so I am hoping to see the article when it's done. Premium would rule because it comes with cool images of the cards  :lol:

[Andy]

hi there

I haven't been around T1 in a long time.

Was there a collective decision to abandon Grim Monolith at some point?

just trying to catch up

tx

[nicofromtokyo]

Smennen-san, I would like to ask you one thing: why don't you use Fastbond? Your mana base allows you to run it, and Fastbond + Draw7 on the first turn (well, not so exceptional) gives you a so huge advantage your opponent will have a hard time to recover. I actually really like your Draw7 list (the old one), and while enjoying it I am continually trying to change some cards to improve it.

Regarding the lands, you have actually:

1 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass

What about this combination?
1 Tolarian Academy (of course)
3 City of Brass
2 Underground sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta

You loose the Multicolor lands to get the Fetchs. I find Fetch very good in this deck, as they have a very good synergy with Brainstorm, and thin you deck to allow you to draw the needed card on your next Draw7. They allow you to get the right color at the right time, maybe stronger in front of Wasteland and are re-usable after a Timetwister. Shouldn't this make GrimLong more stable?

[carlossb]

What would you be interested in reading about in the article?

1. The process of making the deck, with the cards that you tested but where not worth including. A little history of the deck (we know you have it since the beginning of this year).
2. Your view/opinion about other versions of the deck (like the ones of AtogLord and ELD where discussing some time ago, in the VintageForum, with Oaths, that they were claiming would cause the restriction of GrimTutor)
3. Your list is only a few cards different from your last one. Because you already have written another article on GrimLong to SCG, you should point only the main differences with the old list.
4. We all know how to play Long (you explained it fantastically in your articles). I´d like to read about different situations you encountered in the SCG tournament you played, and a little about your sideboard strategies.

[cosineme]

What would you be interested in reading about in the article?

2. Have you considered Burning/Death Wish as a one of to grab answers to problem cards like Arcane Lab, and also to grab another Tendrils should it be removed, or if you somehow miscalculated and lost your one copy on a Will turn that didn't finish off the opponent?

~TH

I think if you have a will turn, and you didn't win, then something is probably wrong in the first place.

But, yes, I would like to see the development phase more than anything else. As essentially you are retooling your SB, and cutting more chaffe (probably less expensive chaffe) to fill in the grim tutors.

[And11]

Heh, basically just how the heck you piloted a storm combo deck NOT featuring FoW to a top 4 finish @ Workshop City. A tourney report with some broken plays would be awesome too.

Thanks.

[sampling_percus]

Whether you tried complete rebuilds of the deck, rather than mods of the old deathlong.

An explanation of the long manabase and the benefits of staying 5 color.

Also the reason you don't agree with Team GWS? 'draw 7s are absolutely terrible. They are win-more cards."

http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=278930&start=25

[Liam-K]

Mostly I'm interested in how you played the tutors themselves.  I've found that they just seem to chew up too much mana when I'm not already going nuts unless played VERY carefully.  I like cabal ritual in and chrome out especially for this reason, I HATE looking at a hand and knowing I can get to 9 storm and tendrils in hand with BBB floating.

[Thug]

Also the reason you don't agree with Team GWS? 'draw 7s are absolutely terrible. They are win-more cards."

I'm not sure if Steve agrees with this, but I think you should look at draw-sevens as a back up plan. It's great to resolve one first turn, but it should be your main goal, since it easily disrupted. But as a perfect its the best thing you can wish for. After playing out your whole hand and seeying all your bombs get delt with the draw-sevens refill your hand for just a lousy 3 mana. (5 if jar, but Jar wins more games than any other draw-seven)

My question to steve is, why not maindeck the Colossus. Didn't you expect much aggro-control? Or do you think you dont need it to win against aggro-control (fish for example)

Koen

[MoxMonkey]

I got a question why did you cut Burning Wish?  My testing has soon it to be very good and you can throw a
Draw 7 in the board and have some removal too.  Was it to slow for your play style or just didn't like it.

[Smmenen]

Also the reason you don't agree with Team GWS? 'draw 7s are absolutely terrible. They are win-more cards."

I'm not sure if Steve agrees with this, but I think you should look at draw-sevens as a back up plan. It's great to resolve one first turn, but it should be your main goal, since it easily disrupted. But as a perfect its the best thing you can wish for. After playing out your whole hand and seeying all your bombs get delt with the draw-sevens refill your hand for just a lousy 3 mana. (5 if jar, but Jar wins more games than any other draw-seven)

My question to steve is, why not maindeck the Colossus. Didn't you expect much aggro-control? Or do you think you dont need it to win against aggro-control (fish for example)

Koen

I put Colossus in my board for the Aggro Control matchup, but I don't think it was worth it in any other matchup, given my testing results.   I also think that this decks best matchup is aggro control.  It is better than the Control or Stax match, so that partly explains it.

I think the draw7s are significantly worse than they used to be, but Jar and Tinker are better than they used to be.  I would never, ever cut jar and tinker.  Anyone who does is not smart. 

As for B Wish, I just think it is now inefficient.  Why are you running it?  For what purpose?  To me it smacks of trying to "perfect" game one, something which is impossible.  Just put your good shit in your board and try to win best 2 of 3.  In an actual tournament setting, you won't need B Wish.  In best of 30 games you may.  But that's not a tournament context. 

I'll include all the suggestions in the article. 

[Smmenen]

I just submitted a 24 page article.  You're going to get your money's worth.
I answered every question in this thread except for one:

Re: Team Reflections approach with Oath/Rector.  It's probably good, but I like the approach I used.  There is reason to continually switch it up, so to speak.   If you are going to use Oath, might as well run Enlightened Tutor like Koen did.  Demonic Attorney ran a list at the Myriad tournament.  Ask him about it and how he did.  Care to share?

[Juggernaut GO]

Mike lydon just missed top 8 with their grimlong oath build.  I built something about the same on mws with eye of the storm and oath/rector.  When it comes to storm combo, I'd rather play a smennen type deck over any other build.

The eye of the storm was fun when it came into play, but you pretty much had to have a merchant scroll or a brainstorm in hand in order to go off with it. 

[Smmenen]

Cool - I'd like to hear about Myke's experience if he's willing to share.