Gifts with Flame-Vault

[Thug]

I like to add a little more about the Time Vault versus Belcher argument.

To me the belcher combo doesnt add anything to the deck, because It way too hard to pull off.
I have ran list with Belcher, and actually liked the Severance a lot, but Belcher itself was pretty weak.
I hardly ever had 3 mana open to belch someone, only if I was desperate.

Time Vault is much better than Belcher on itself.
You will be facing more decks against which Vault is good (Stax, any controldeck)
Time Vault/FF adds something to the deck it didnt have before and combo thats wins fast, and can be assemblied in the first couple of turns.
Try goldfishing the deck a couple of times only aiming for the Vault kill, you'll be impressed.

To me its either running Time Vault/FF or Tendrils as a secondary kill, but belcher seems outdated.

Koen

[JigglyPuff]

wait i don't get it....
SO you skip you're next turn v. stax(saying they have a stax in play) and untap it...and say go ahead....can you skip your turn if the time vault is untapped? whats the new errata?

[mr_rogers]

@ Thug: I'm finding the same results as you.  It is much easier to just go of with the flame-vault kill, than it is with charbelcher.  I also really like how time vault works in the mirror or any control match-up.  

I really think that the flame-vault kill is better in almost any meta than sev-belcher.  It wrecks aggro, control mirrors and can even race combo.  

[Null Rob]

I really think that the flame-vault kill is better in almost any meta than sev-belcher.  It wrecks aggro, control mirrors and can even race combo. 

You are 2/3 correct, and 1/3 completely wrong.  FlameVault is flat-out INCREDIBLE against fast aggro decks, and is just as amazing against combo, because it gives you the ability to race them.  However, FlameVault is by NO MEANS better against control decks.  In the mirror, against CS, against Mono-U, basically against any deck with Mana Drains (excluding the Oath variants that still run it) I would always prefer to have Belcher and Severence than FlameVault.  This has already been said a million times, but it doesn't seem like people have really paid attention.  You don't need to win all at once against control, which makes just hardcasting Belcher off Drain mana early in the game a great play.  The ability of Belcher Severence to "win small" against a control mirror is amazing because it has 2 cards that fit perfectly into that game plan.  Belching for 2-3 a turn is a relatively slow clock, but against another control deck, it's all you need.  And we've already been through the idea of randomly casting Severence to improve your topdecks, but until you've done it a few times in a tournament, you can't really know how well it works.  Plain and simple, it wins games against control by finding you Ancestral/Will/Gifts/whatever a turn or 2 earlier than your opponent.  So, in short, if you play against a lot of aggro, combo, stax, and oath, play FlameVault.  But, if you live in New England, or anywhere else where the meta is ALL control, Belcher Severence is just a better option.

[Thug]

In the mirror, against CS, against Mono-U, basically against any deck with Mana Drains (excluding the Oath variants that still run it) I would always prefer to have Belcher and Severence than FlameVault.

This is what I thought for a long time, till I actually tried out the Time Vault.
Time Vault owns mirrors, Belcher runs into drains or sits in your hand.
Severance is pretty good against control, but not as good as Time Vault

Koen

[doylehancock]

when testing how have you all found flame to be?  What I mean when do you cast it?  How does that deck play differently than the belcher version?

[Dr Evil]

Usually when I have a timevault in play :p

Except for one match when i was racing a stax player with 2 mox monkeys and i had like 9 permenants for the final blow. (always nice to kill someone with a mox )

[mr_rogers]

@ Doyle: It doesn't really play that different than the beltcher versions, except that you can randomly win with Flame-Vault on like turn 2-3.  Flame-Vault is a cheaper kill condition in gifts decks and is easier to get off than sev-belcher or Tendrils. 

[Jacob Orlove]

can you skip your turn if the time vault is untapped? whats the new errata?

You can skip any number of turns, at any time you could play an instant:

Time Vault comes into play tapped.
Time Vault doesn’t untap during your untap step.
Skip your next turn: Untap Time Vault and put a time counter on it.
Tap, Remove all time counters from Time Vault: Take an extra turn after this one. Play this ability if only there’s a time counter on Time Vault.

# Oct 4, 2004 - If multiple "extra turn" effects resolve in the same turn, take them in the reverse of the order that the effects resolved.
# Oct 4, 2004 - Before the errata, there were a lot of tricks to getting infinite turns. The errata stops all of them.
# Oct 4, 2004 - If you try to use the Vault before you skip a turn, then you will end up skipping the newly created turn.
# Oct 4, 2004 - If you untap this Vault more than once or untap multiple Vaults, then you will end up skipping multiple turns. In other words, the skipping is saved up until you skip that many turns.
# Oct 4, 2004 - You can play the untap ability any time you can play an Instant. It causes you to skip your next turn.

As for playing vault against control, here's how it's done (since people somehow missed this before):
End of their turn, untap Vault. If they tap mana to play Gifts or Thirst or whatever, deal with it as appropriate, then immediately tap Vault to take an extra turn. You skip the extra turn, and take your normal turn, only some of their mana is tapped.

If they don't cast anything EOT, let them have another turn. They won't be able to do anything too crazy then, either, because you're still at full mana. Then, you can take a turn and go crazy with stuff, then tap Vault to take a second turn and untap all your lands.

Either way, you gain a pretty significant advantage, with no downside.

[Nastaboi]

I know this is more a rules question, but can I use Time Vault to counter opposing Mindslaver Activation by skipping the turn he would gain control, or will he eventually gain control of my turn when it finaly comes? If I cannot, then my opponent will give me a big hand for helping him to make infinite Slaver lock with no other cards from his side, I think. 

[Disburden]

I know this is more a rules question, but can I use Time Vault to counter opposing Mindslaver Activation by skipping the turn he would gain control, or will he eventually gain control of my turn when it finaly comes? If I cannot, then my opponent will give me a big hand for helping him to make infinite Slaver lock with no other cards from his side, I think. 

From what I can understand by the rules of Time Vault, you can get around the Slaver activation with the Vault's ability, which is why it is so good against control (see earlier in the thread). You are skipping your next turn and since Slaver says" You control target opponent's next turn" the turn you skip is the turn they would control.

This is what I get from the text of both cards, anyone else think of this question? Knowing how to skip past Slaver activations would be great here in NE.

[Juggernaut GO]

The player that activated slaver will still control your next turn that you take, regardless if 1 turn was skipped by time vault.

[untap/win]

Juggernaut is right... the mindslaver will take the next available turn, so if you skip the turn, they'll just take their thurn and then yours....

@ Thug: I'm finding the same results as you.  It is much easier to just go of with the flame-vault kill, than it is with charbelcher.  I also really like how time vault works in the mirror or any control match-up. 

I really think that the flame-vault kill is better in almost any meta than sev-belcher.  It wrecks aggro, control mirrors and can even race combo. 

I've been charbeckler for a while now and ive been postin some pretty good results, while beatin the living hell out of flamevault mirrors. charbelcher gets around an active welder, while fusillide doesnt. ive tried testing it and i like the belcher better.why give the mirror control player to capitalize? many of the gifts lists now run at least one p.needel maindeck and if they're playing belcher and your playing vault, they're most probably going to win than you, even if you find an answer of your own needle....

But thats just me...

[Disburden]

Juggernaut is right... the mindslaver will take the next available turn, so if you skip the turn, they'll just take their thurn and then yours....

@ Thug: I'm finding the same results as you.  It is much easier to just go of with the flame-vault kill, than it is with charbelcher.  I also really like how time vault works in the mirror or any control match-up. 

I really think that the flame-vault kill is better in almost any meta than sev-belcher.  It wrecks aggro, control mirrors and can even race combo. 

I've been charbeckler for a while now and ive been postin some pretty good results, while beatin the living hell out of flamevault mirrors. charbelcher gets around an active welder, while fusillide doesnt. ive tried testing it and i like the belcher better.why give the mirror control player to capitalize? many of the gifts lists now run at least one p.needel maindeck and if they're playing belcher and your playing vault, they're most probably going to win than you, even if you find an answer of your own needle....

But thats just me...

I don't understand this statement. How would Belcher get around an active Welder more than the Time Vault would? I played with the Belcher kill for months, tested for months, etc and I haven't seen nearly as much speed in that kill that I found in playing the Time Vault kill. You can combo out on turn three a lot more often than you would with the Belcher kill, plus you don't have to remove lands from your deck in the hopes that your opponent doesn't have an answer to the belcher activation after you severanced. If they do, well, you're kind of screwed.

I believe Brassman, Semmenn and other Vintage Adepts agreed that Flame Vault was far superior than the other combo options. Wouldn't they know more of what was correst, especially Brassman, since he invited the deck?

[MoxMonkey]

Belcher gets around a welder by Playing Severence first then Casting tinkering the belcher and activating it at the same time.  Flame Vault is keep and allows you to just combo out.  In all the games Ive played CS vs Gifts with Vault maybe 1 out of 100 games it lost cause of a welder but probably 20-30 were won because it had Flame/Vault.  I think Flame.Vault is much better and it mostly comes down to play style since it shouldn't matter when your playing the deck right anyway since you can walk into more mana to activate the belcher and or take an extra turn for Vault/Flame.  I would run Flame/Vault anyday over Belcher/Sev No questions.

[untap/win]

Belcher gets around a welder by Playing Severence first then Casting tinkering the belcher and activating it at the same time. Flame Vault is keep and allows you to just combo out. In all the games Ive played CS vs Gifts with Vault maybe 1 out of 100 games it lost cause of a welder but probably 20-30 were won because it had Flame/Vault. I think Flame.Vault is much better and it mostly comes down to play style since it shouldn't matter when your playing the deck right anyway since you can walk into more mana to activate the belcher and or take an extra turn for Vault/Flame. I would run Flame/Vault anyday over Belcher/Sev No questions.

here in the ne, i dont know why, but belcherlists seem to post higher results. at waterbury, day 2 there were 2 t8 belchergifts and 0 flame vault, along with misc. amounts of tourneys from gp philly vintage (1 belcher 1 flame 2 MD), where i took belcher to the finals and split with eli(for like the 3rd time)..he was Playing Md, and when i asked him why, he just kinda laughed. at myriad games, there were 0 t8 flamevaults where some kid t4ed with another belch/sev deck....At the last 2 beanie tourneys, belcher  won it against stax and t4ed the second day,while flamevaulte and andy sat to the side..(Although I did like the musical performance of brassman......GG's: they make up for all their 2nd place finishes with their musical talents!!!!)
i havent seen any other oppposing gift decks running flamevault in the t8 lately, and belcher has been plowing the way for me...it pulls out random hiccups for 24 and sev PWNS in the vast field of control that the ne is known for, but like i said, its just your own opinion.....
Stupid outlaw...that foil thirst was mine!!!

[mr_x]

T.A.G. Team Gifts

Alternate Creature Beats
1x Darksteel Colossus

Control
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will

Draw
4x Brainstorm
3x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Ancestral Recall

Tutors
1x Cunning Wish
1x Burning Wish
1x Tinker
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor
2x Merchant Scroll
2x Gifts Ungiven

Brokeness
1x Yawgmoth’s Will
1x Time Walk
1x Recoup

T.A.G. Team Tech
1x Trash for Treasure

Combo
1x Flame Fusillade
2x Time Vault

Mana/Lands
7x SoLoMoxen
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
3x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Badland
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Tolarian Academy


Sideboard
1x Rushing River
1x Rebuild
1x Recoup
1x Trash for Treasure
1x Flame Fusillade
1x Hurkyl’s Recall
1x Pyroblast/REB
1x Hydroblast/BEB
1x Stifle
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Gush
1x Timetwister
1x Merchant Scroll   
2x Tormod’s Crypt


Well, I’ll start by NOT going over how Gifts is played, but the choices of certain cards in the deck. Most notably is “Trash for Treasure�. “Why is this terrible card in here?� Well, It’s a just my nature in playing magic to have a backup to plans that may fail. Besides, It can be one of the cards that you can use when you gifts.

Another thing here is the combo choice. Flame Vault is a good and quick combo for this deck but it can be quite fragile at the same time. So you may change the combo to Severance Belcher. The only thing is it may a cost 1 more mana to play the combo out, but it doesn’t require you to play red. This may be a good thing or a bad thing, but I went with the choice that is a little faster, but then requires the red mana. Also, another backup plan is always the trusty beats of Darksteel Colossus.

I also wanted to be able to play around wasteland, so I included 4 basics in the deck.

The second Time Vault, could always be eliminated. But, I think it would be a good tinker target when you gifts. (e.g. Tinker, Vault, Flame, Burning Wish). This is when you're trying to get that vault out. It also allows you to go off if and have your opponent not expect the second vault. If you already have a vault in the graveyard, grab a Trash, Burning Wish, Flame, Recoup. Or some other comination, always depending on your hand.

I think Trash for treasure is an overlooked card and is great in gifts. Janky but works card and I see it.

This is a slightly different look, but with a twist with trash. Try it out, and give me some input to what you think can be done with this build.

[xrizzo]

I was waiting for someone to actually figure that out. ^^ Nice deck btw.

Vegeta - you are so smart.  Why didn't you post it since you had it figured out for so damn long?

Koen posted that a long time ago and just mentioned it again...

im going to re-emphisize the fact that belcher can be played out over turns...where flame vault needs to pull it off in one turn...

Why is that again?

another game i was holding severence and top decked recall(belcher, time walk, fetch land)...with two untapped, i time walked, untapped drew a land, fetched played belcher, and passed turn, forced a tangle wire and a needle, drew a land to play severence and belch, while he was holding a next turn null rod... Mr. Green

Alternative scenario: "I am holding time vault and top deck recall (flame, time walk, fetchland) ... with two untapped, i time walked, untapped, drew a land, fetched, played time vault, passed the turn, drained a tangle wire, forced a needle, drew a land, tapped red and used my 3 drain mana to cast flame, while he was holding a next turn null rod."

I think flame is better for 2 reasons: (in addition to the other good reasons mentioned)

1. The first card of the two card combo costs less mana (2) and the 2nd card costs (4).  The order is reversed for Belcher, and thus does not lend itself to a mana-curve ramp up.  You literally can't do anything useful with belcher until you have 4 mana.  You can dick around with them after 2 mana if you have vault.

2. Vault and Belcher are each somewhat randomly good on their own, but Vault gets the nod against control decks and Stax, which are objectively two of the most played decks.  Flame and Severance cancel each other out. 

I think Trash for treasure is an overlooked card and is great in gifts. Janky but works card and I see it.

Trash into a time vault?  That is really the only win condition you are going to be getting... Maybe a lotus every so often (at the expense of a mox).  If DSC went to the grave, this might make more sense.  For 3 mana at sorcery speed, I am not sure this would make the cut maindeck.

Also, how is 1x Cunning Wish and 1x Burning Wish?  I usually go one way or the other.

[Chamelet]

I guess Belcher has one advantage over Vault: you can play with Severance SB and if you do that you can Burning Wish for it without having to spend RR to win right away. So it frees up a slot in the MD, which is really, really relevant

[xrizzo]

I guess Belcher has one advantage over Vault: you can play with Severance SB and if you do that you can Burning Wish for it without having to spend RR to win right away. So it frees up a slot in the MD, which is really, really relevant

Oh great.  So I have to tutor for Burning Wish, which can then tutor for my 'instant' win condition...

[untap/win]

I dont ever think that id want my win condition to be in the side, because if im going off, id want the extra two mana and i wouldnt waste a maindeck slot to find a sideboard win...