Gifts with Flame-Vault

[rakso]

Wish makes a big difference since it allows you to take up to three Time Walks after Tinker Colossus, which is your quickest and most straightforward kill.

[mr_rogers]

So do you think Fusillade should be in the board only?  I can see that working, but it seems risky.

[Greenebean]

Having Fusillade in the side board only is risky, but it could also always pay off in the end. Like most other things, it comes down to personal preference. Having it main deck as well as sideboard makes me feel more at ease, just because then you have it twice (i.e. one main deck and one in the board, which you can wish for).

Burning Wish is a must. It wins the game half of the time allowing you to grab the time walk after you use it in the Yawgmoth's Will turn. Granted it is a dead card early, but it can pay off in the late game.

[rakso]

I'm not really advocating a position. Just voicing that I won the local Manila tourney with Gifts and my only game losses came from (aside from mana flood/screw) drawing too many dead cards early against aggro-control. In one game, I mulliganed down to 5 with Darksteel Colossus in the opening hand, and went into a midgame Fact or Fiction for Mox Sapphire and four land (fortunately I won at 1 life).

[mr_rogers]

@ rasko: Drawing dead cards does suck.  I think I would take the risk for the chance to be able to go off with flame-vault with or without burning wish. 

[Disburden]

My biggest question about this Severance Vs. Flame Vault debate is what does Brassman have to say about it? This IS his deck and he did say to, "Expect big changes" after Ravinca and Portal were made legal. Well, they're legal, so what is it Brassman? What do you think about Flame vault?

[Tin_Mox5831]

Well,

I'm sure that at least half of us are wondering the same thing you are. I can tell you one thing for sure. You won't find the answer before this Saturday. I don't want to pry into Brassy's personal space, but I will mention a quote he made on the SCG forums:

"Flame-Vault is the best two-card kill ever printed." (Or something almost identical)

If Severance/Belcher simply kills you, Flame/Vault disembowels you, lights you on fire, then takes a leak on the ashes. The problem with that is that we're looking at the efficiency of the combo on a regular basis, not which one makes the biggest boom when everything goes right. You folks have already brought up the topic of dead cards in relation to this debate, and that's a very relevant point. You HAVE to catch both parts of Flame/Vault in order to go off, whereas Belcher can simply be activated once a turn until you're dead or you can use Mana Severance just to thin your deck if you get significant mana online. That fact alone makes Severance/Belcher a better option in a contemporary Gifts shell. Maybe the deck's core can be altered in future builds to maximize the efficiency of Flame/Vault.

In any case, this is a no-lose debate. It's like asking me to choose between a 1968 Barracuda and a showroom-new Lotus Elise. They are both amazing and elegant, just for different reasons. I guess for now, I'll take the Barracuda and the Mana Severance/Goblin Charbelcher. I'm old-school like that.

[TheBrassMan]

Woah there guys... can I get in at least one event before the list comes out? Chicago's only 3 days away!  Obviously I've been staying out of the conversation for a reason.... but I assure you, after the event I'll through out my post rav opinions, either on the boards or in an article.  What I'll say now is the conclusion I think a lot of you have come to- it's not cut and dry.  Neither kill is "strictly better," and you have to look at the other 73 cards that make up the deck to decide what you want to run.

[mr_rogers]

Brassman made a good point about the rest of the deck.  If you going to run Flame-vault your deck may want more ways to find both pieces of the combo, so you are not drawing dead cards.  I think that was my mistake in my list.  I should have upped the tutor count to include I. Seal and Vamp Tutor as well.  I may have even want to up the Gifts count to 3.  I've been playtesting my deck a lot lately and I really think the increased tutorage has helped get the combo going much quicker.

[rakso]

IMHO, the tutors are not very important. Once the deck hits 6-8 mana, finding a particular card is a matter of inevitability.

Also, I'd argue that if you assume Tinker fetches the kill, Belcher/Severance (3+2+3 to activate) is only one mana less efficient than Vault/Fusillade (3+4+0 to activate).

[mr_rogers]

I have to disagree on the tutor thing.  More ways to get the two kill cards at the same time is very good.  I still have to try upping the gift count in the deck as that may be better than running more tutors.  I am also leaning towards cutting TFK as I can't find room for as many artifacts.  Does anyone think a version of gifts closer to meandeck's build might be a better deck to put the Flame-vault kill in?

[Tin_Mox5831]

Another thing that could affect the FlameVault vs. Severance/Belcher debate to some extent is whether or not Stax players decide to use Suppression Field. This card has been adored, shunned, and ignored, all within a few weeks. Some folks swear by it, and some just swear because it frickin' sucks! I'm sorta straddling the fence between the two sides right now, trying to playtest the card and give it a fair shake. If Stax incorporates Suppression Field, (Or any Tier 1 Vintage deck, for that matter) then the combination of Mana Severance and Goblin Charbelcher will be dominant, and FlameVault will temporarily go the way of the dodo. A handful of people may be able to play Gifts through the ever-mounting hate, (BrassMan, Outlaw, Pinchot) but for every one of those players, there's about 20 other Gifts players I'd love to face.

Peace,
Dave

[mr_rogers]

If Suppresion Field does see play in heavy amounts then I'm sure Gifts decks can adapt to deal with it.  I'm kind of sick of hearing how decks are being hated out.  Everyone said slaver was going to be hated but it still makes top 8's, same with Gifts decks.  Good decks will live through the hate thrown at them, because chances are the hate deck is bad.  In fact hate being ineffective against many decks is why I stopped playing fish or any disruption deck like that.  I want my deck to do broken things and to win before my opponent can even set up thier hate.

[Dozer]

I may have even want to up the Gifts count to 3.

That's not going up, that's going down.

Do as Brassman says. Wait for the weekend, people. It's just two days away.

[mr_rogers]

I may have even want to up the Gifts count to 3.

That's not going up, that's going down.

Do as Brassman says. Wait for the weekend, people. It's just two days away.

3 is going up from my 2 that i was running.  I am waiting for the weekend to see results and deck lists.

[rakso]

I may have even want to up the Gifts count to 3.

That's not going up, that's going down.

For a minute there, I thought you were saying that we should only run 1 Gifts.

[Greenebean]

Brassy makes a good point, I made a similar point in a post earlier in this thread...patience is a virtue as they say.

One another point about increasing the amount of tutors, what are you going to lose for those tutors is my question for you. The deck list is pretty tight as it is, adding some cards to help find the pieces is kind of crazy for the following reason:
1) The typical gifts deck runs:
       - 2-4 Thirst for Knowledge (depending on gifts count)
       - 4 Brainstorm
       - 1 Demonic Tutor
       - 2-4 Gifts (depending on thirst count)
       - 1 Burning Wish (Fetch something from the board)
       - 1 Mystical Tutor
       - 2 Merchant Scroll
       - 1 Fact or Fiction
       - 1 Ancestral Recall
To me this is an aweful lot of cards that are going to help you fetch the pieces, adding more tutors means you lose other things such as maybe Pithing Needles, which may I add is a house, or other good cards. Adding more tutors may in fact make the deck draw worse.

[rakso]

Especially against a deck with counters, I end up just wanting a Merchant Scroll or Thirst to draw me into a counter, since a tutor for Tinker that I can't protect yet is pointless.

[Greenebean]

All I meant to say about adding tutors is the fact that you will draw worse because you are obviously going to leave out other cards. You may have to leave out some thirsts or gifts to incorporate a couple tutors. The deck typically draws fine in most situations anyway.

Sorry Rakso, I could not tell if you were being serisous or just being sarcastic...but I honestly do feel like extra tutors are not needed in the deck.

[rakso]

I have to disagree on the tutor thing.  More ways to get the two kill cards at the same time is very good. 

Sorry Greenebean. This was more a belated reply (left browser window on without completing the post) to a prior post and thoughts regarding the Star City thread where some people seem to be proposing adding Imperial Seal to control. Sometimes, I don't even care about the maindeck Demonic Tutor already.

[mr_rogers]

When I suggested adding tutors it was to cut down on the times you had vault or fusillade alone in hand with no way to get the other piece.  I also suggested a build closer to the Meandeck version that runs maybe 3-4 gifts and more merchant scrolls may be a better deck to run flame-vault in.  If anyone really thinks tutors are that bad feel free not to run them, just don't replace them with bad cards.(Greenbean )

I am also working on a new decklist which I'll post after this weekend Chicago tournament is over.  I want to get an idea of what the more known players are running before posting a new list.

[Greenebean]

@ Mr. Rogers: those "bad cards" are going to win me games, mark my words :lol:

[JigglyPuff]

bad cards win games....

[Greenebean]

Thanks Jiggly...nobody Beat Off twice! I still remember that, good line. As far as those bad cards, I still can not say what they are until I finish the testing for the deck.

[JigglyPuff]

thanks greenebean...good luck to all those goin to chicago and beware the ides of march.....i mean work shops....beware of the workshops....

[sampling_percus]

On their own aren't all these 2 card combo cards going to be the worst in the deck? Shouldn't it be the power of the combo that matters most? i.e if you want removal there are better cards than charbelcher, if you want an extra card to pitch to force of will why choose mana severance?

[Glix]

One important thing to keep in mind is that Fussilade is NEVER a dead card.  I played Vault-Gifts at TMD, and got 14th (I would have done better but between a bloody nose and a few stupid mistakes on my part, I lost a game I could have won).  I killed a player with a fussilade twice with no vault in play.  Even then, if your fussilade is bounced or something in response to fussilade, it serves as a plague wind against welders, shamans, and fish.  Time Vault also won me a game because of its ability, allowing me to untap and tap it in response to Tangle Wire granting me enough mana to win.

Several Times, the lower cost of the cumulative combo allowed me to win games I would not have been able to anyways.  Another bonus is that pithing needle allows you to kill oposing Belcher decks without effecting you (I ran 2).

The vault combo allows the sourcery to cost 4, and the artifact cost 2, whereas the belcher combo is the inverse.  The Vault combo can win off its sorcery allone, whereas the belchcer combo can win off the belcher alone.  The Belcher combo costs 3 to activate after both spells have been cast, the vault combo costs 0.  The vault combo can sneak the artifact into play before drain mana is up, the belcher combo CAN do the same with severence, but almost never will.

I like the vault combo more than the belcher combo because of its increased speed, and I never was disapointed with the combo.  In fact, I'm pretty sure there are several games where I woulnd't have won had it not been for me playing vault over belcher.

Just my 2 cents.

[mr_rogers]

Glix you hit the point I've been trying to make on this thread perfectly. Thank-you.

[JigglyPuff]

That's very true. I guess until the results prove otherwise ther's no true way to tell which "combo" if you will, is better. both instant kills together, and can shine by themselves(belcher and fusillade). Time will tell. I've been playing ggssb for a good three months and I'm very happy with the performance of this deck. I top 4d day one and to 8ed day 2, along with other gifts( 1 being flamevault and the other meandeck). I personally like the belcher route(plus i got Kowal's foil Korean belcher ).

As my friend kyle would say: Whatever Works....

[mr_rogers]

Chicago's over and since starcity isn't doing coverage I was wondering how any Gifts decks running flame-vault did?  Brassman feel free to jump in here with any results if you used that kill in your Gifts deck.